The Sacramento News & Review ran an interesting, and very balanced, article about the pros-and-cons of Print-On-Demand publishing (ie "vanity presses").
there’s a difference between the POD printing technology–which has many
uses–and POD publishing. In recent years, a number of companies have begun to
offer POD publishing services to authors who want to see their books in print
but haven’t been able to interest a traditional publishing house in their work.
These writers often turn to companies with names like AuthorHouse, iUniverse and
Xlibris to publish their books for them. For a fee, which varies depending on
the level of marketing, editing and other services the author selects, POD
publishers will set up the book and print copies as they are ordered.Wales, who published his first novel with AuthorHouse, makes a distinction
between using a POD publisher and self-publishing. “The basic difference,” he
said, “is that when you use a company like AuthorHouse or iUniverse, they are
the publisher. That means they own the ISBN [International Standard Book
Number], and all payments for the book get channeled through them.” But because
the author has paid for the publication, and the company has no input into
content other than banning obscenity or pornography, according to Wales, “those
companies are vanity presses.”“They’ll set you up,” he said, “but they don’t have any sort of criteria for
what’s going to be published and what isn’t.” Wales initially went with
AuthorHouse (which was called 1stBooks at the time) because he’d had difficulty
finding an agent or publisher for his first book, a rather epic fantasy novel.
It runs more than 600 pages–more than 300,000 words–in length.…Many would-be authors decline to use the editing services offered by POD
publishers–either because it costs extra or because they think, wrongly, that
editing isn’t necessary. Without the agents and editors of the traditional
publishing system to weed out the unprepared and unworthy, some really bad books
are out there.
The folks at Pod-dy Mouth (where I found the link to this article) exchanged emails with the reporter, Kel Munger, while she was writing the article. In one of them, the reporter said:
I’m genuinely torn between a
healthy respect for access to publishing for all and aggravation that so many
people think anybody can write a good book. It’s like saying anyone can be a
brain surgeon; it would be nice if it were true, but it’s just not so.
I recommend the article for anyone who is thinking about self-publishing their book.
It’s good that you brought this up- “POD” actually refers to a method of publishing, which can even be used by royalty-paying small press publishers. “Vanity” publishers could technically use POD or traditional publication methods, depending on what the author wants to pay.
I’ve heard of people who use lulu.com as a way to copy and ship manuscripts to their beta readers.
Rather than printing up a manuscript, sticking it in an envelope and mailing it, they publish it to a pdf, upload it to lulu.com, purchase a couple copies at cost (to themselves, not to lulu) and have them shipped out.
I haven’t checked it out myself, but this person claimed that lulu.com is the less expensive option.
Lots of new ideas out there.
Thanks for clarifying that, Robin. POD is a confusing term that is often used (wrongly) as a synonym for vanity publishing. Most small e-publishing companies seem to use “POD” technology for their print books, but that doesn’t mean they’re vanity presses. Books from both New Concepts Publishing and Ellora’s Cave, two e-publishers mostly known for romance, are now being stocked across the US in Waldenbooks and other big stores, even though their books are printed using POD technology. (I think they technically use short runs,not print-on-demand, but the books look like POD books.) Neither is a vanity press, and neither charges any fees whatsoever to the authors.
The bottomline is almost no POD-produced books sell. Add a return policy and that’s one good step, but better not to use POD at all. It’s really just good for a few galleys snd the like. Any publisher that can’t cover a run of 3000 books offset isn’t trying to sell books to readers. They’re a vanity press in that regard. I read the article and Greg in the story is a frequent contributor at Pod-dy-mouth as am I.
He’s really out of the honeymoon phase and on to the reality that he really doesn’t have a published book. That’s the gist of it in the marketplace.
Lee? Anybody? Any thoughts on Vantage Press? Where do they fit in all this?
Vantage Press is a subsidy, aka vanity press. One of the oldest ones in the business, I believe.
Yup, right there next to Carleton. With subsidy you pay for an entire print-run of your own books and share the proceeds. Bad deal.
‘Any publisher that can’t cover a run of 3000 books offset isn’t trying to sell books to readers. They’re a vanity press in that regard. I read the article and Greg in the story is a frequent contributor at Pod-dy-mouth as am I.’
Incorrect. Zumaya Publications/eXtasy Books produces print exclusively through POD. A vanity press is a publisher that requires payment for publication. Simple as that. If the publisher covers all costs, it is a small press publisher. Period.
A print run of 3000 books may result in warehousing 2500 of them. The POD technology can produce 3000 books when they are needed, without killing a lot of trees and producing waste to do so. it does not always mean they ‘can’t afford it’. And as for not trying to sell books to readers…
We attended the Romantic Times Convention Booksigning in April. The bookseller erred on the edge of caution and refused our request of 100 copies, ordering only 25, of Morgan Hawke’s House of Shadows.
In a room filled to capacity with authors ranging from high-end pubs to ebook press, Morgan sold out in less than twenty minutes, and spent the rest of the time referring people to Booksurge, where they purchased that environmentally friendly POD book.
We’re trying to sell books to readers, all right. And we’re succeeding.
Mark, it sounds like you’re suggesting that any publisher that uses POD and prints fewer than 3000 copies of a given book is trying to sell solely to the author and author’s friends, a la PublishAmerica. But in the cases I mentioned, both publishers’ books are being carried nationwide in big chain stores. They’re not just available for order (as PublishAmerica books are supposed to be); they’re being stocked. (I should add I write for both these pubs, so I’m clearly biased.) I can’t say for sure what the print runs are, but they’re both definitely using POD-type printing rather than offset printing. But when the books are available from California to Florida, it seems to me that the publishers are clearly trying to sell books to readers rather than authors (whether they’re succeeding or not is a different matter, I suppose:-).
Could it be that this is a genre thing, and readers of romance (specifically erotic romance, in EC’s case) are more willing to accept trade paperbacks, and the different look of POD books, than readers of other genres?
A vanity press is a publisher that requires payment for publication. Simple as that.
That’s an outdated definition. Simple as that.
A better definition
That’s your blog, not a definition. Your opinion, based on no facts listed. Theory. An idea. Not definition. Your deciding it’s true does not make it so.
Simple as that.
POD is not a method of publishing. POD is a method of printing. The fact the media can’t manage to get that through their dizzy heads doesn’t change it. A publisher has the option of using one of three methods to print books: offset, web press and POD. Doing print runs is wasteful and inefficient unless you’re J.K. Rowling. The number of books returned by booksellers last year climbed to 34%. That’s one-third of all the books printed that ended up back at the publisher or the wholesaler.
For a small publisher, POD makes sense for many reasons, not the least being that the lower set-up costs allows them to publish more good writers in a year than they might otherwise be able to manage.
Using print on demand is not and never has been an indication that the publisher so doing is a vanity or subsidy press. To qualify for that the author has to have paid for the privilege. PublishAmerica is a world unto itself–an author mill that pretends to be a “traditional publisher” but in fact makes most of its revenues from selling books to the author and his/her friends and relatives. Oh, and by hoping someone will want to buy the film rights or the foreign rights or any of the other subsidiary rights because their contract demands you allow them to act as your agent.
The major publishers use POD to print limited runs of backlist titles that sell steadily. They also use it to produce advance review copies. The time is coming when they’ll be using it for new authors instead of doing expensive hardcover runs that may not sell through
One more time: POD is a method of printing. Period.
The new definition of a vanity press that Keith provides on his site is a fair one: “a company that makes the bulk of its money from a very large number of very small print runs that it sells mainly to people the authors know.”
It could use a little tinkering, maybe, but I think that’s a good start. If a publishing company makes the bulk of its money from selling books to an author and his/her family and friends, that’s a vanity press.
Elizabeth is correct. POD is not a method of publication.
Stef, your opinion is merely that as well, and your preferred definition of “vanity press” is outmoded. The only fact needed to support this statement is a glance at PublishAmerica–a vanity press that’s found an improved business model.
If Montgomery and Snyder agree, surely God is nodding in approval.
Ha! Good point, Keith. 🙂
Hey, I’m just happy that there are alternatives . . . I have a novel and it’s hard as all get out to see it published, even with my agent.
It takes so long – I was shocked to find out that a novel cannot be shopped to more than one publisher at the same time – evidently, you send it to one, they read and decide if they want it (which takes months) and they pass, then you go on to the next one. It’s the opposite of screenplays, which you send out to everyone and anyone that wants it makes a bid. Evidently a publisher won’t even look at a novel if it’s being considered by anyone else. Wow. So it’s been a year and a half, and despite good, positive feedback from the three or four publishers that have liked it but couldn’t or wouldn’t publish it for a number of reasons, we’re waiting for another one to read / evaluate it and either pass or publish.
Is this really how it happens, or is my agent boondoggling me?
‘If a publishing company makes the bulk of its money from selling books to an author and his/her family and friends, that’s a vanity press.’
That is quite logical, as were many of Keith’s assessments of PA. PA and small press are two entirely different animals, so his definition, while valid in that instance, doesn’t pertain to my original concern.
The initial statement was that anyone using POD is a vanity press. My dissention was with that statement.
As I clearly pointed out in my example of House of Shadows, you can use POD technology and sell to readers OTHER than relatives and friends, and do quite well.
Ellen also mentions Ellora’s Cave, who is doing quite well with their POD tomes in chain bookstores, which is opening doors for other publishers using POD, such as New Concepts.
Which would lead to the logical conclusion, based on your own voiced opinion, that if you sell to people and bookstores) other than family and friends, then it’s NOT a vanity press.
Leading to the final statement that POD does not have to equal vanity press. Which was what I said in the first place.
I happen to agree with you, David. If a publisher is selling most of its books to the author and the author’s friends, I’ll agree with calling it a vanity press. But I don’t like to see every small publisher tarred with the “vanity press” brush, either. Some small publishers have loyal (even rabid) fan bases, and their print books are aimed at that market– not at the author. This isn’t vanity publishing– it’s small press publishing, which is entirely different.
One more time…
Publish America is a vanity press. I never denied that. I noted in my previous post that your definition did apply to PA, in fact. Quite well, actually.
But not all small press is PA. And not all small press is vanity. And you’re not noting the distinction.
“A company that makes the bulk of its money from a very large number of very small print runs that it sells mainly to people the authors know.”
This definition is ready made for PA…and fits all the known vanity presses as well. It does NOT fit small publishers since they virtually all do NOT have “a very large number of…print runs” — in other words, most small presses have only the expected number of authors for a small press because that’s all they can handle since they do provide the usual services of a real publisher. A very large number of print runs means a very large number of different books — and clearly no publisher investing in the books through editing, REAL design, and promotion can afford a “large number of print runs” each with only few sales.
PA can, because it’s not investing in each book and therefore never intends to sell many. It turns a profit from sales to many authors. A small publisher turns a profit from careful planning, not biting off more than they can sell, and keeping author numbers within their financial means to provide for them. So Kevin’s definition does not turn small publishers with limited numbers of books using small print runs via POD into vanity presses. It does, however, scoop up author mills into the vanity heading.
Neither Keith nor I said that all small presses are vanity presses. I don’t believe that’s the case.
I’m not sure what the argument here is.
I believe the discussion is mostly aimed at Mark, who stated: “The bottomline is almost no POD-produced books sell…Any publisher that can’t cover a run of 3000 books offset isn’t trying to sell books to readers. They’re a vanity press in that regard.”
David,
I know you nor Keith said small pressed are all vanity presses, but someone has twisted Keith’s definition here and elsewhere to say that they are: “Any publisher that can’t cover a run of 3000 books offset isn’t trying to sell books to readers. They’re a vanity press in that regard.”
That suggests that a small press who does not print more than 3000 of each book is not trying to sell to readers which is absurd.
That’s Mark saying that. Nobody else is.
“Thanks for clarifying that, Robin. POD is a confusing term that is often used (wrongly) as a synonym for vanity publishing. Most small e-publishing companies seem to use “POD” technology for their print books, but that doesn’t mean they’re vanity presses. Books from both New Concepts Publishing and Ellora’s Cave, two e-publishers mostly known for romance, are now being stocked across the US in Waldenbooks”
Hi Ellen–just to clarify, I have books published with New Concepts, and they do NOT use POD methods. They actually do their own short print runs, in small quantities, then bind their own books. And you are correct, they are not a vanity or a subsidy publisher, but a true small press. You are also correct that the term POD is constantly used incorrectly : )
As I understand it, NCP is no longer binding its own books, Robin. They’re going through Lightning Source now, which I believe is what most people refer to as “POD,” although it’s not print-on-demand not in the technical sense. But at any rate, it’s not offset printing.
Hmmm, well since I stopped submitting to them after my last novella in ’03, I guess that’s possible! You would probably know better than I do now. If they are outsourcing, they probably have more durable binding and the inventory won’t smell like cigarette smoke now : )
Y’all are arguing over definitions. In the meantime, would someone address this quote from POD-dy Mouth:
“This is why we are here, folks. This is why agents and editors are repeatedly telling us that good books are getting rejected day after day–intentionally–because they know Marketing will never go for them.”
What about the if-it’s-good-it-will-be-bought theory?
I have never believed that there is a large reservoir of wonderful, unpublished novels out there. There might be a handful of gems that fall through the cracks, but they are the exception, not the rule.
It’s a very difficult business, but quality and persistence will ultimately result in success.
‘What about the if-it’s-good-it-will-be-bought theory?’
My opinion:
There are many good books out there, but there are only so many big pubs. They can only accept so many books.
This does not necessarily mean rejected books aren’t fit for publication, because the numbers of submissions is astounding, and it’s very easy to get lost in the shuffle. Particularly with some pubs only accepting agented books.
Small press enables more people to showcase their talent and get it out to a paying market. Legit pubs give it a damn tough edit and package it well, and promotiona efforts are included.
This leads to opportunities that may have passed them by before. In some cases, The NY pubs have picked up small press authors: Angela Knight and Mary Janice Davidson, for instance.
Our contract allows for our voluntary release of rights in this instance, and we encourage authors to pursue it. I know of several other small press publishers who also have this option.
Christ. I haven’t read the swarm completely but I have Montgomery and Snyder. I agree. David has a soft spot for a couple of POD mystery presses, but I don’t.
EC is pornography in my view so it will sell printed on anything anywhere. That’s a straw man.
Keith’s definition is solid.
“That suggests that a small press who does not print more than 3000 of each book is not trying to sell to readers which is absurd.”
On the contrary, it says the company doesn’t think the book will sell, hence it prints one copy at a time. That’s beginning with failure securely in hand.
I knew that line would do it for the POD people. You see it’s the break point where POD becomes more expensive per copy than offset. I stand by the statement. POD by definition means no demand. The books generally aren’t stocked or distributed. This comes straight from Barnes & Noble.
‘David has a soft spot for a couple of POD mystery presses, but I don’t.’
Mark, I just have one question.
Your novel,Against a Strong Current, is published by Xlibris.
http://www2.xlibris.com/
What exactly would you define Xlibris as? Besides a POD vanity pub?
‘The books generally aren’t stocked or distributed. This comes straight from Barnes & Noble.’
Funny, Ellora’s Cave is stocked in Barnes and Noble. And Waldenbooks. And Borders. New Concepts is in Waldenbooks. There are several other pubs who will be soon enough. All you have to do is go with Lightning Source and you’re in the ordering system.
The managers say it’s a great seller. Their authors hold booksignings and book tours at these locations, so it must not be too painful to have those purveyors of ‘pornography’ around.
Okay, question for everyone but Mr. York (since he doesn’t like pornography and so I don’t want to offend him with my query, since my book has sex in it):
My book was published by iUniverse, which according to one definition is a vanity press (since I paid to have it published). But although it has sold pretty well, no copies have been sold to my family or friends (owing to the fact that the book has sex in it and so I haven’t told them I wrote it, or even that it exists). As well, more than half the book’s sales have been as e-books, not via POD.
So in this case iUniverse doesn’t fit the definition of “a company that makes the bulk of its money from a very large number of very small print runs that it sells mainly to people the authors know” since all sales have been to strangers and most of them not by a print run at all.
Any thoughts?
I don’t have an agenda when it comes to vanity/self-publishing/POD/etc. so the only thing that I’m really concerned about is the quality of the book. If it’s a good book, I’d like to read it.
The reason I stopped accepting submissions of self-published and vanity titles is because the quality wasn’t there. I did review a couple early on, but it just wasn’t worth the time it took to sort out the very rare exceptions.
At least with small press titles, regardless of their method of publication, there is someone who is weeding out the submissions so that the results have at least a certain standard of quality. In the mystery field, small presses are publishing a lot of the most interesting writers these days, and some of the best books.
Why anyone who isn’t somehow involved in the process would care how the books came to be, I don’t know.
If you pay to have your book published, it’s a vanity project, regardless of anything else. And although your individual case might be an exception, iUniverse as a whole makes it money from selling to authors and their friends, so it would fit that definition as well.
(Not that there’s anything wrong with that. If anyone chooses to pay to have their book published, more power to ’em.)
Thanks, David. Good answer!
Joshua:
“It takes so long – I was shocked to find out that a novel cannot be shopped to more than one publisher at the same time.”
You have a bad agent who doesn’t know what he/she is doing. Unless a publisher asks to have an exclusive on a submission, agents submit simultaneously to as many editors as they can interest. Most agents have a stable of writers whose books bring in small advances (5-15K is common. These agents have to make dozens of deals a year to make anything out of their commission. If they did things your agent’s way, they’s starve.
Look for a new agent, fast.
‘Why anyone who isn’t somehow involved in the process would care how the books came to be, I don’t know.’
EXACTLY, David. The issue is consistent quality, not means of production. We’re all familiar with Atlanta Nights and what that did to PA, right? A lot of vanity/ subsidy press do nothing to ensure quality, and many don’t do any edits at all…or screen submissions carefully. This has soured many a person on small or independent press, though the two aren’t the same.
This is why small press chafes so violently at being lumped in with them merely because of the technology used. We’re working hard to produce quality books, from submission to publication. This isn’t a game for us, or a hobby. We hold to the same standards that NY does.
There are some who don’t keep up the standard in small press as well, granted. There are clunkers in all facets of the industry. That’s the way it is. We can only keep own own yard clean, and fight the good fight.
There are some damned good books that are too outside the box for mainstream–or a NY pub marketing plan–to get there. That’s the case in many situations. They’re still damned good reads. It’s nice to see you understand that, and review small press. You have made the distinction, and it’s appreciated.
And Karen, David is right. There’s nothing wrong with paying for your book. I actually suggest it in an article I wrote, because in some cases, the author is better off.
But remember, you’re taking responsibility for it when you do that. So make sure you have a very clean book, and start up a marketing plan straight away. Promotion is key to breaking out.
I wouldn’t go so far as to recommend vanity publishing to anyone. It is NOT a way to win friends, influence people, get respect, make money or break into publishing.
It is a way to get bound copies of a book you wrote. That’s all it is.
Yeah we get the gist of your particular “small press.” It’s a romantica press. Refer to my post to see what that means for me, and why it matters little to regular novels.
“Your novel.”
Game set match. It’s not a novel but a memoir; nonfiction journalism. Anyone who can’t determine that from looking needs serious help.
I’m against Vanity presses because I tried using vanity presses. Try and grasp the concept despite your bias and paycheck.
I concur with David’s last post.
“because in some cases, the author is better off.”
Pftt…Better than what?
I paid nothing to Xlibris in 2000. Does that make them a real small publisher?
Actually, Mark, eXtasy Books is an imprint of a small press, Zumaya Publications, not the small press itself.
Just to clue you in. eXtasy is the erotica/romance imprint. Zumaya publishes mainstream.
Now, David and were actually beginning to have a very constructive conversation. So I will continue that. If you wish to keep up the potshots and snide comments, you have every right. Or you can join in. It’s your call.
David–in response to your comment about not recommending subsidy/vanity…
I recommended it for a couple of reasons:
1. If you are absolutely determined to have a book pubbed, but have serious issues with editor and publisher control. I say this because our contract states that we can make reasonable edits, and there are some who refuse to make the simplest changes. This has caused a lot of stress on both sides. In this case, they’re better off.
2. As you mentioned: to get a few galleys. For example, a poetry book. Few pubs will do poetry. One of our authors self-pubbed her poetry book, and it’s done pretty well, because it ties in with her other sales. It’s also a good choice if you want to play, as in the Atlanta Nights tale. It’s published through Lulu,I believe? Say you wrote a parody and wanted to give it as an Xmas gift. Self-pub is the way to go.
Zumaya is a Canadian vanity press unsing the POD-vanity model. A completely online publisher.
Self-publishing is the only way for poetry. That’s a given and another straw man. Got anymore cliches?
Light reading on the subject. Writer Beware
Fine print
David, if you want to chat further, email me privately. I am interested in hearing your take on this, since you have read small press.
Nice blog, Lee! Some very informative bits.
But not all small press is PA. And not all small press is vanity. And you’re not noting the distinction.
I suspect you inferred something I didn’t mean to imply. I have no grudge against small presses. They’re necessary. The reason I didn’t mention them in that blog post is that they weren’t what I was writing about. The list of things I wasn’t writing about includes all things except vanity presses.
That new definition excludes legit presses of all sizes, and includes vanity presses of all stripes. At least, until they come up with a new business model that requires us to formulate a new definition.
But not all small press is PA. And not all small press is vanity. And you’re not noting the distinction.
I suspect you inferred something I didn’t mean to imply. I have no grudge against small presses. They’re necessary. The reason I didn’t mention them in that blog post is that they weren’t what I was writing about. The list of things I wasn’t writing about includes all things except vanity presses.
That new definition excludes legit presses of all sizes, and includes vanity presses of all stripes. At least, until they come up with a new business model that requires us to formulate a new definition.
Ah, the light bulb appears. You are correct.
I assumed because you cited it in refernce to my ‘small press POD is not vanity’ argument that you were stating that small press was included in that definition. I believe I was unclear at that time at precisely what I was defending, and took offense where none was intended.
My apologies. I actually thought it was an excellent definition for vanity.
There are other good reasons to sensibly self-publish, such as you’ve written a book with limited, local interest, like a book on local history, or on local services for pregnant women. If you give seminars and sell the book at the event, then self-pubbing might work for you.
But for novels, there’s usually a better option.
If you haven’t read Slushkiller, you should. There are a lot of comments in that long, long thread, but they’re worth it. Give it a read.
Then, when that is done, read this entry on getting agents and which agents to avoid. It’s another long one, but your diligence will be rewarded.
Wow, you mean we reached an improved understanding instead of talking past each other?
I don’t think that’s allowed.
Vanity press novels are the worst option any novel could have.
Good points, Harry.
I think he still thinks any POD claiming to be a small press is one. That’s not the way I see it.
Ask Teresa about Zumaya. I’d love to hear her answer. Victoria’s too.
‘Wow, you mean we reached an improved understanding instead of talking past each other?
Oh, sorry. Unaware of the netiquette. Let’s see. I can rephrase.
Keith, of course I didn’t misunderstand. In fact, instead of admitting I misinterpeted what you were saying and that you have valid points, I believe I’ll make some rude personal comments. And then pick on your blog. And your cat. And if you don’t have a cat, I’ll pick on you for that.
Better?
I don’t think that’s allowed.’
Disclaimer: The last post was sarcastic and intended to amuse.
That’s better. I thought I’d wandered into the wrong Internet.
Thanks for commenting, Peter, I thought I’d been ignored –
That’s too bad about my agent (though it’s with a legit agency) but it’s so difficult to know who’s good or not with regards to representation, I mean, it’s not as though we can go into Walmart and pick out an agent that we like, as you know. Oh well, thanks for the advice – my agent’s been good to me for theatre stuff, but it could be that fiction is out of her league, I don’t know.
I would like to comment on one thing that I read, that good work will always find a publisher – I disagree, I’m a playwright by trade, and I know that there are a lot of writers out there, good writers, who don’t get found – they’re in Iowa or Nebraska, or somewhere, writing good stuff and stop after a few rejection letters. True, there are more bad writers than good – but in my experience I’ve seen a lot of good ones just not get found, or get caught up in working to pay the bills, it happens.
Now maybe that’s what is supposed to happen, maybe if it’s too hard they’re shouldn’t be doing it, some say. But I think good work should be heard, and I don’t believe, really, that all of it is. Some utter crap gets published and some great stuff never gets found. The author of THE TIME TRAVELER’S WIFE said in an interview her book got rejected thirty or forty times.
That’s a lot of rejections for a book that I consider one of the best books I read last year, and I read a lot of books last year, close to a hundred of them. I think a book as well written as that should have found a home faster than that.
‘I think a book as well written as that should have found a home faster than that.’
Right. As I mentioned, there are only so many publishers, and a hell of a lot of submissions. I’m a small press imprint, and I’m inundated myself. It takes a lot of time to read and evaluate, and come to a decision.
On top of the new submissions, you have to consider the new work of your already contracted authors.
So the odds are against most even seeing the light of day, especially since in a lot of cases, the actual editor doesn’t see a lot of them. An assistant may be assigned to look them over first and send on only what fits a certain criteria.
That’s what has fueled small press. The ability to put out overlooked talent.
Which publishing path a writer takes boils down to WHO gets to make the decision to actually publish: the writer (POD, vanity press) or someone else (traditional publishing house).
From what I read on POD-dyMouth, the publishing houses more and more are looking for those BIG sales at the expense of the mid-list writers.
I don’t know if I’d ever opt for POD for me, but I certainly don’t discount it automatically. I’ve read some pretty good PODs lately (iUniverse & Lulu books).
Kitty,
I checked out your blog…your writing is very good. Do you self-edit?
“That’s what has fueled small press. The ability to put out overlooked talent.”
I’ll bet you’re good at determining who knows when to use a colon and that sentences have verbs?
The overwhelming majority of vanity press books are crap. Everyone knows it from editors, agents, journalists to the author organizations and published authors themselves. It’s a printed slushpile. Like the slushpile a small percentage of those books are going to be good, but the company and the method will hamper them in succeeding. People like stef here have a clear agenda that is self-interested.
It’s funny, online when you dispute someone’s stance on anything it becomes an ad hominem attack along with a slew of other fallacious arguments. Sounds just like American politics to me. The facts don’t change though and in the last four years since I tried the free PODs the evidence against them is overwhelming even if the jury is still out for Kitty. Hopefully she’ll catch up.
I guess e-book only online publishers count as small press. Distributed nationwide? Yup, as downloads. This doesn’t even qualify to be in the conversation technically. Erotica will always sell to the niche audience it has built into the culture. It’s a cult.
Sure, the majority of vanity press books and self-published books are crap. No gatekeeping and the proliferation of computers has made the physical act of writing a book so easy that many more people are giving novel writing a shot, getting rejected (deservedly) and going on to publish with vanity methods. Sure, you can hire an editor but it still comes down to totally your decision because any editor you hire has no power to make you change for the better, and that can lead to ego-driven crappy writing.
But that doesn’t really have any relation to small press books which DO have a gatekeeper and a “normal” editorial process.
But even though the majority of vanity press/self-published books are crap — that doesn’t mean that books that don’t sell to commercial publishers (large or small) are crap. Large publishers are increasingly driven by the bottom line, pushing out many unusual but good books. Small publishers are driven by finances also — usually the lack thereof — and can only publish a very few books because real publishing is expensive (even skipping the print costs — you have editing and design which are costly if done by professionals.)
I’ve seen many — not a few — MANY rejection letters recently that went to writers whose books were very well received by editors or whose books even went so far as acquisition meetings — but who were shot down by perceptions about the market. It’s a sad state of publishing when so many frustrated and apologetic letters are going out from editors who see quality, recognize quality, and have to turn down quality. There was a time when writers comforted themselves with these “good” rejection letters (since they meant you were close and sure to score soon) but when you get them everywhere, they aren’t “good” anymore — they are symptomatic of a serious malignancy in publishing.
Small presses are vital in today’s publishing world. There are a lot of small niches out there; erotica, interestingly, is a place where small presses are particularly appropriate, since human sexuality is so varied and people will naturally gravitate toward books that appeal to their predilictions (I took a look at Extasy Books, Stef, and noted the wide range of book types there, for example). The same can be said for the wide variety of romance types (historical, contemporary, bodice-rippers, etc.). In science fiction, there is a growing but still small segment of the genre that is highly literary (from publishers like Prime Books).
POD, because it helps these presses keep costs down, allows small presses to thrive even if a particular title only sells a few hundred copies to a narrow niche. The same can be said of e-books; I confess I’m surprised that my book has sold more e-books than regular books, since when I started I didn’t even know what an e-book was.
Self-editing? That’s a very, very good skill to have. Don’t try and self-publish without it. In fact, I’d say one shouldn’t try and publish at all without it.
Fanfic rules.
Something fun to share with you all.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/grammarian.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/troller.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/jerk.htm
Kitty…you have anything to add to the discussion?
(I took a look at Extasy Books, Stef, and noted the wide range of book types there, for example)
Thank you, Karen. That has been our goal from the start to have something for everyone. We have some taboo subjects, of course. But the common goal is to produce quality tales that just, well, happen to have some heat. We also added a straight romance and even a mainstream line with no real sexual content, but on subjects that require more explicitness than mainstream.
And you bring up a good point about self-editing. The proliferation of small pubs has made that a bit of an issue. There is a common attitude that authors don’t need to know how to use proper grammer, etc., because ‘the editor will fix it’. I think publishers need to tighten the reins a bit on that. An editor’s job is to teach you how to edit, not to clean up for you.
Stef, those are hilarious! I’m still trying to figure out which one I am.
If you go to the main site, there’s a complete listing. I can’t decide which one I am either.
Thanks, Stef, for the lovely compliment! I’m a one-woman production; I’m the chief cook & bottle washer. I actually have one publisher who will be including my “Sometimes Irish” story in an anthology next year. If it sells reallyreally well, I may make a few pennies, but I doubt it. The fact that there didn’t seem to be a market for short stories prompted me to start blogging my book of stories. I’ve been gradually adding to it over the months. A foot fetish group called Older Barefoot Gents loves my story “Stuck In An Elevator With Mandy Patinkin.”
Again, I appreciate the time you took, Stef, to check it out.
The Mandy Patinkin story was the one I looked at. I could picture it very well.
There are a lot of pubs who take anthologies that I know of. I can refer if you can give me a rundown on where you go with your stories. If you wanted to go epub, some will take shorts 5000 words and higher for individual publication.
Another forum is the serial. I know of several folks who have gone that route. You can sell subscriptions, and people receive the installments via email or password protected download.
Wow! So there IS hope yet. Should I contact you?
Btw, those warriors are a scream!
“But the common goal is to produce quality tales that just, well, happen to have some heat.”
And a good goal this is, too. 🙂
Sure, Kitty. Give me a holler and we can chat.
Karen: And a good goal this is, too. 🙂
Indeed. We decided that erotica didn’t have to be sex with a story around it, but rather a good story with sex. I joke with my authors that we want books with plots that people get so caught up in, they page past the sex. Until afterwards, of course.
We’ve been using that Internet warrior site at Absolutewrite and others for years. I know the Toxic Granny and the Boy Scout.
I think stef outlines his goals well. It’s e-books so only a handful will ever see or read one of them.
Guyot sees the same parallels here as I. They’re identical.
Samll publisher is the likes of Algonquin and the U. Presses. They’re real publishers and the books are In stores with the big boys. That’s what a small publisher is, not a mish/mash of e-book, PODs and out-and-out vanity presses all thrown into a heap.
Mark:
As a matter of fact, Zumaya is considered an acceptable publisher by SFWA, so Teresa and Victoria are both welcome to comment. Our current “stable” of writers includes the sister of John (LEAVING LAS VEGAS) O’Brien, an internationally recognized expert in the field of exotic garlic who was an award-winning YA author in the 80s and Allan Cole, whom SF/F fans may recognize as the author of the Sten and Timura fantasy series and who has scripted TV series that include QUINCY and THE ROCKFORD FILES.
Among others.
We are not an online-only publisher. We have placed books in a number of bookstores, and anyone can order any of our books via their local Borders through their Title Sleuth program, as we’re a recognized vendor with them. We prefer NOT to deal with Ingram, Baker & Taylor, B&N and, yes, Borders because we see no good purpose in having two copies of our books shoved onto shelves with 50,000 others on the off chance some browser will stumble on them.
It has nothing to do with our faith in the book. If I didn’t have faith in the book I wouldn’t contract for it. To suggest we operate like a vanity press is absurd–if the book doesn’t sell, we make no money. The entire initial outlay for publication is out of our pocket. Yes, we ask the author to pay for their 20 copies but that’s at flat wholesale. We don’t make a dime on those. We pay for review copies. We pay to ship books to bookstores that won’t purchase them directly. We pay to go to conventions and conferences where we can meet readers and talk about our books. We pay for advertising. Why, then, would we accept a book we didn’t believe had a chance to sell? The name is Burton, not Trump.
We are presently developing an alternative to the existing distribution system that takes advantage of the benefits of print-on-demand.
Eighty percent of the population of the United States believes he or she has a book in them. Six MILLION actually got around to writing them. There are six major publishing houses operating in the US. There are 70,000 small presses, not including self-publishers. Most use traditional offset runs, but not all. And as the cost of doing business continues to lean in favor of the wholesalers and a select group of vendors, I will not be at all surprised to find more and more moving to POD for some or all of their publishing.
There is a difference between vanity publishing, subsidy publishing and self-publishing. A vanity publisher is paid to create a print run of a size designated by the contractee–think Vantage and Trafford.
A subsidy publisher provides publishing and, if desired, fulfillment services for a fee. The size of the fee depends on the level of services desired. The books produced are published by the publishing company and carry that company’s ISBN. This is iUniverse, AuthorHouse et al. And the point is not whether you’ve sold enough copies to cover your initial pay-out but whose ISBN is on the cover. If it’s yours, you’re self-published. If it’s theirs, you’re subsidy published.
The true self-publisher has acquired sufficient knowledge of the publishing industry to bring a book to market–acquiring ISBNs, purchasing services such as editing, cover art, design and layout then contracting with a printer to have the book produced. The primary example of this is, of course, Dan Poynter, the Guru of Self-Publishing.
It it soothes the ego to believe that the only “really published” book is the one that had an offset run of 3,000 copies, then by all means, cling to the delusion. Given that most first-time authors thus published fail to sell through that run, thus earning back their advance, a printing method that allows books to only be printed as needed strikes me as much more efficient–and certainly a h*** of a lot easier on the trees.
Guyot: Do you write fanfic?
Ha. He writes real television shows. Pertinent to this and frankly every discussion here:
The Swarm
This has happened to me everywhere I’ve traveled on the net conerning the writing business. Taken in toitality the shear weight of innaccurate irrelevant arguments can crush all but the most experienced swarm fighter.
Maybe she was sending it to the wrong publishers. Maybe the publishers already had similar books. Maybe they didn’t think they could handle it effectively.
Joshua, did you check out the Slushkiller link I posted. It addresses these tales of passed-over gems pretty well.
And all this talk of good books being rejected misses an important point. A publisher’s idea of “good” is a book that people will read in enough numbers to make a profit, thereby keeping themselves in business. That’s not necessarily the same set of standards an individual reader might have.
Seriously, check out the Slushkiller thread.
One of my amazing contributions to American Literature, HEADLOCK, was originally written for Dan Slater at PocketBooks. The day of delivery was the day Dan was “downsized,” and the book was orphaned. Margo Powers at Deadly Alibi Press, using POD technology, stepped up with an offer to publish. Although there was no advance against royalties, the book came out to excellent reviews and international availability — as long as you Deadly Alibi wasn’t a vanity press, and boasted a few Edgar Award winners and nominees, but carried the techno-curse of being POD. By techno-curse I mean that when the bookstore orders the book via computer, they receive notice that the item is on back order. The order is never processed and the item is on back order forever. The store must order by human voice, not computer, for the order to go through. When I did my promo tour for HEADLOCK, I found myself signing every other book I had in print, but seldom HEADLOCK — the stores ordered it via computer and the books are on back order to this day. Although I understand the policy is changing, Barnes & Noble wouldn’t stock print on demand books, although they did have me do signings there for HEADLOCK, they said they would not re-stock POD no matter how well it sold at the initial signing. Of course, that was five years ago. YIPES! Five years? No wonder my legion of fans is getting cranky awaiting the sequel. I think it is important to make the distinction between the technology of POD and the concept of vanity and/or co-publishing. Of course, even some vanity/co-publishing companies will pay advances to select authors whom they use as “lures” for the hapless ones who pay for publishing. I know because NPI paid me $25K for MAN OVERBOARD back in 1994, and contracted at $45K for HIDDEN WORDS before they were placed under indictment for mail fraud — turs out that I was the only NPI author being paid — all others were paying NPI.
Well aside from the tree fallacy (books are made from ground up pulpwood not old growth timber) your sales pitch doesn’t convince me. Yeah I can dial up my books in Borders on the sleuth too. Big deal. I’d much rather see two copies on the shelf. End of story. Send in Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Strauss, and Jim Macdonald by all means. Why didn’t they go with your company?
Elizabeth, thank you for that informative and interesting post. It’s nice to hear what the professionals have to say about these things.
Burl you’ve been in some rogh company, but I think your story proves my point nicely.
The truncated sentence in the above post should read: as long as you order online from B&M, Amazon, Walmart, or Margo
Paranoid much?
Yes, Karen. I get the impression that the professionals don’t speak up quite as much as those who fancy themselves to be.
David: Hey, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get you.
Burl…We haven’t had that problem with Booksurge. Even direct sales came through in short duration, in most cases a couple of days. Of course, as you said, it was five years ago. POD has made leaps over time, in the last year especially.
For the con, we purchased them up front, thereby eliminating the need for a return policy. We do that for scheduled booksignings as well. That might be a good move for you next time.
It just goes to show that every time a self-interested poster says what Karen wants to hear they’ll get the obligatory thank you note from home, on virtually every thread.
If I go down to Hastings and BN here will I find Zumaya books on the shelves? I mean, you are professionals afer all? Hell, you’ve got yourself a Canadian erotic e-book company.
Just so no one gets confused, since there appears to be some misinformation.
http://www.zumayapublications.com/ is the small press. Editor-in-Chief, Elizabeth Burton. Primarily print with secondary ebook.
http://www.extasybooks.com/ is the erotic/romance imprint of Zumaya Publication. I am Executive Editor-in-Chief. Primarily ebooks with a print option after a set number of ebook sales.
[If I go down to Hastings and BN here will I find Zumaya books on the shelves?]
No, because I just said that’s not the route we’re pursuing. If asked, we will provide, but what contact I’ve had with the superchains hasn’t given me any incentive to deal with them.
And, yes, actually, we are professionals. I’ve been a writer and editor for 20 years and a publisher for long enough to know the current distribution system is a black hole nobody in their right mind would approach unless they absolutely had to. We don’t.
“that’s not the route we’re pursuing.” Neither do vanity presses because the products don’t qualify for distribution and stocking. The reasons: PODs, no returns, short discounts to stores; royalties on the net and so on. You’re a vanity press pure and simple. Everyone knows it. Black hole? Don’t tempt me.
[Neither do vanity presses because the products don’t qualify for distribution and stocking.]
1. Define “everybody.” So far, the only one I’ve seen here insisting Zumaya is a vanity press is you–the man published by Xlibris. Who sent me spam the other day offering to publish my already published books and bragging bout how they paid out $1,000,000 in royalties to their 10,000 authors last year. Wow, a whole hundred bucks average per author. I’m impressed.
2. You’ve obviously just arrived back from an intergalactic vacation. Every one of the subsidy POD presses places books in the bookstores–when the bookstores are willing. It’s gotten harder since Ingram limited listing to those printed by their own subsidiary, Lightning Source, but Baker & Taylor have always accepted POD titles.
“Getting books in bookstores” has been the mantra of every POD subsidy press I’ve had contact with for the last three years because they know it’s a hot button for writers who haven’t taken the time to figure out if getting into the bookstores is in their true best interests.
3. If you have any actual evidence to support your accusation–not your opinion but facts–we would all be happy to see them. So far, you’ve gone from insisting we were an ebook publisher to insisting we were an erotic book publisher to insisting we are a vanity press without providing anything other than incorrect or incomplete data.
4. Your definition of a vanity press as a company that doesn’t do print runs is just that: your definition. You are entitled to it, but it doesn’t make it the officially accepted definition, which I provided and started your tirade.
Where ignorance is bliss and all that.
The books aren’t in stores by your own admission. Xlibris is a vanity press and a feather in your hat if you happen to be anyone but me. Since I paid them no money in 2000 that’s evidence I know nothing. Nice work if you can get it, but it won’t work on me. Exceptions are meaningless in this shell game. Begging to get a copy on a shelf isn’t the same thing.
Vanity press is an evolving definition. Most build the business model around POD production and online sales which in any given day ammount to 11% of the book market. To the POD people it’s all relative.
The matrix I go by comes from this Lit lawyer:
vanity press
You know when a song first hits rotation on the radio?
You hear it over and over. Constantly. At first it catchy, people sing along. But after a while, it’s the same tired song. It doesn’t get any better; in fact, it starts to get annoying, nothing more. There’s no substance, it’s the repetition that makes it stick in your head.
And when the song gets tired, you pop in a CD and go about your business. That’s how much that old, tired song affects your outlook, or your daily life. Zilch. Zip. Nada. You just move on, while the DJ responsible for repeating that song over and over continues to spin it obliviously.
It’s been real, guys. I had fun.
Same song different day. Wait till the next fanfic thread. They argue the same way. The real authors know the difference. The others are just customers.
Definately time for a CD. Frank Zappa will do nicely. Sheik Yerbouti, track two. Perfect.
Kitty, hail me. We’ll talk.
Scrivener’s Error
30 July 2003
10:01 [GMT-6] Continuing from the wee hours of this morning:
“Myth 5: Since Publisher X isn’t asking for a lot of money up front, I am doing self-publishing. Deep Throat was right: follow the money. The key isn’t whether the author must write a large check detailed for printing costs to the publisher/printer before delivery of any of the goods; the key is whether the author is in a capital inflow or capital inflow position at the moment the books come off the press, and who owns those books. A decision matrix would look like this:
Ownership of books as they come off the press: Author owns Publisher owns
Guaranteed capital flow on publishing date is away from author Self publishing Vanity publishing
… is toward the author Gift Commercial publishing
The key issue here is not the author’s hopes and dreams for bestsellerdom, but the cold hard figures that go into account books on the date of publication. Leaving aside for the moment the author’s contribution of intellectual property—which, in the end, is the whole point of the exercise of publishing, but not really relevant at the moment—if the author has to pay for marketing; for cover design; for a specified number of copies; or for whatever, the net capital flow is away from the author. Similarly, if the author must provide any value other than the intellectual property represented by the manuscript, such as a list of 300 persons who might be willing to buy the book, the net capital flow is away from the author.
Given the rarity of true gifts in the business world, that lower-left box is not something to pay attention to right now. But that top line is, regardless of the ignorant propaganda coming from what I believe is one specific source that was swallowed whole by PC Magazine (“Self-publishing has gained respectability in the past few years (we don’t say vanity publishing any more)…” (emphasis added)), the Washington Post (sorry, the article is about to move into the paid archives), the Chicago Tribune (ditto), and the Boston Globe. Those four publications bear a considerable portion of shame for being conned when they should have known better, or at least done some fact-checking. No, not just shame; moral responsibility for people who will be victimized on the basis of the inaccurate information now clothed in their credibility.
Law and reality in publishing (seldom the same thing!) from the author’s side of the slush pile, with occasional forays into military affairs, censorship and the First Amendment, legal theory, and anything else that strikes me as interesting.”
He knows what he’s talking about.
Guyot sees the same parallels here as I. They’re identical.
Um, Mark, don’t for one second try to bring my frivolous, demented, annoying, adolescent, tongue-sticking-through-cheek comments into your world of painfully platitudinous rants and ramblings.
You and James C. Hess ought to get an apartment together.
I think they’re actually 2 sides of the same demented personality.
Guyot: Do you write fanfic?
Stef… may I call you Stef?
I currently preside over JACK – a magazine devoted to homoerotic fanfiction that you can read about here:
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2005/06/you_dont_know_j.html
Our most popular stories involve fanfic of Miami Vice, Walker Texas Ranger, the novels of Dana Stabenow, and Antiques Roadshow.
Guyot, you certainly may call me Stef. I was just enjoying your blog, actually.
Fanfic of the Antiques Roadshow. I must go look at this.
Harry, I did check out Slushpile, thanks for the pointers – though I’ve had more than a few rejection letters myself (as a playwright) and have no difficulty accepting it as part of the bix (I used to work as a lit assistant) – what confounds me is when good or great work is recognized and not acted on, which I have seen a lot, in theatre, with screenplays and I believe it happens with fiction as well – like I said, I think that there are a lot of GOOD writers that slip through the cracks – taking good work with them. That’s just what I think and have seen.
Joshua, the tales of good stories falling through cracks are interesting because they’re so rare. I’m sure in any given year, there are more people saying “Good stories go unpublished” than actual good stories go unpublished.
Vanity presses, and widely-rejected wannabes who can’t see the flaws in their own work, continue to pass this sound bite off as The Truth.
Stef, et al, there are thousands of people all over the world who live perfectly happy, successful lives while ignoring Mark York’s stupidity.
I detest Hess. I never insulted you until now. If you think I’m wrong on a point by all means say so. Don’t give me that Hollywood put off/put down crap. I live there, not exiled in Tuscon.
“Vanity presses, and widely-rejected wannabes who can’t see the flaws in their own work, continue to pass this sound bite off as The Truth.”
Funny you cite the very same evidence I promote.
“Stef, et al, there are thousands of people all over the world who live perfectly happy, successful lives while ignoring Mark York’s stupidity.”
Which is why Harry no one as happily ever heard of you. Shove it.
Hey, Mark, how many places have banned you for being a jerk? Absolute Write? Writers.net? Any others?
So what? The groupthink is always correct? I have a government position for you if that’s the case at the department of homeland correctness and relativism. Circumstantial ad hominem? Look it up. It’s taught a colleges.
Why WOULDN’T it be in a writer’s best interest to have their book available in brick-and-mortar bookstores?
Mark, Harry, everybody… I don’t want to see this discussion degenerate into antagonism and personal attacks. There have been some very interesting points raised here on all sides, let’s stick to those.
Elizabeth wrote:
Maybe I’m thick (and I probably am), but I don’t see a real distinction between vanity press, subsidy press, and self-publishing. Regardless of who filed the ISBN, the author is still paying to get himself into print. To me, “Vanity Press” seems appropriate to all three. What am I missing?
There are differences between vanity and self-publishing, from the business model perspective (mainly in terms of who owns the books and controls the rights), but from a practical point of view there are no differences. The bottom line is the author is paying to have their book published.
Lee, in the latter the author becomes a publisher and owns the whole affair. There are no royalties only return on investment. See Scrivener on this. I’ve provided the link a few times over the weeks to no avail. Keep in mind I have no desire to do it, but it’s different than a vanity press. See Eragon. They were a real small press: returns, print runs, promotion, the whole deal.
I would point out that Lee Goldberg is one who I have yet to disagree with. I consider Lee the consumate pro not afraid to offend when the oppositiuon is clearlt in the wrong. I respect that. I liked his work on DM too since I was there reading scripts and acting on the sets all over town in the late ’90s.
I do find the personal attacks on me less than professional by all. Point out something I’ve said, not just call me stupid. That means you lost and can’t take it.
“They’re paying” is a generality David. Most vanity press types don’t have the dough, gumption and frankly, the skill to start a whole company that doesn’t use vanity press methods. They produce books the old faishoned way, not farm them out to a POD farm in Canada online only. See Andy Kessler at the WSJ. He did good piece on this.
Hooray! it’s still available for free.
Andy Kessler’s self-Published Book
I would draw a distinction between self-publication and vanity publication, though I don’t think I can come up with any hard-and-fast criteria at the moment.
If you’re in business as a press, and your product is your own writing, I think that can be (not necessarily is) legit.
If you’re a customer of PublishAmerica, you’re not in business as a press.
I know, there are plenty of nits to pick here, but I do think ultra-small (like, one or two authors) presses can be (not necessarily are) legit in a way PublishAmerica can’t be.
Harry wrote –
Joshua, the tales of good stories falling through cracks are interesting because they’re so rare. I’m sure in any given year, there are more people saying “Good stories go unpublished” than actual good stories go unpublished.
Harry, I’m just not talking about tales other folks have told me (tho’ I did cite THE TIME TRAVELER’S WIFE, true) I spoke about my own experience as a lit assistant – Yes, I do believe that there are good writers falling through the cracks because I’ve seen some myself, I’ve seen good writers kick and do something else for no reason other than it seemed impossible to get their work out to the public. And while it shouldn’t be EASY or SIMPLE, neither should it be close to IMPOSSIBLE. You’re familiar with the Ron McClarty story, right? He wouldn’t be published if he hadn’t done an audio-book of his own work that S. King managed to listen to and write about.
I’ve been told by more than one lit agent that fiction, these days, is very hard to “sell” and that non-fiction is what a lot of the houses want to publish. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say, I can only testify as to what I was told.
Now if you notice, I haven’t taken sides on the POD debate, mainly because I don’t really have an opinion. My only opinion is that good writing should be published and bad writing should be rejected. If a bad writer wants to publish themselves, more power to them, it’s a free country.
My point was that GOOD writing and GOOD writers were being rejected for reasons time and time again, perhaps for good reasons, perhaps not. Maybe it’s bacause fiction needs to be “marketing” to specific “genres” – I don’t know why but it’s what I’d like to know. But please, to say that all good writers find a publishing deal, I just don’t buy that. I know too many that haven’t. And if good writers aren’t finding a home with the big houses, where are they supposed to go next?
They’re supposed to keep trying. This is a game. Play it to win, don’t revert back to little league at the first set back.
Sure they’re supposed to keep trying – but the refs got to call the game fair, that’s what I’m saying – cripes, I’m not talking about folks that fold at the first rejection slip, I’m talking good writers working at it for years, you know?
You have to play the game and produce the product that they’ll buy. As long as it takes.
Or you can ignore the game and write whatever you damn well feel like writing. The odds of getting published seem to be about the same, and you haven’t spent all that time writing stuff you don’t like.
I mean, if you’re going to do something you don’t like, you might as well do something you don’t like in a field that pays better.
Keith and Joshua:
I think in terms of the old cliche.
You go to college, get great grades, do all that you’re supposed to do, and leap fresh-faced into the job market, only to be told that they want someone with experience.
Writing is no different. As Joshua says, you can be the most incredible writer of the decade, and still get overlooked. You may not even make it to the editor because the screening assistant didn’t like your storyline. I have heard cases where authors did get through, were queried, and then dropped on their ass regardless. They will take a chance on a newbie, yes. But these days, they’re getting smarter and watching for experience. That’s not even including the pubs that won’t accept agented work. A reputable agent is also looking for experience in most cases.
In the interminable wait for acceptance or rejection ( and it can be a LONG wait) you can either sit on your laurels, keep writing along, basing your skills on your own judgment and wait to be discovered, or you can pursue publication through other venues.
Small press is one. Short stories and articles in paying publications is another. Even journalism. It’s a very basic concept known as resume building, and tells pub that somebody liked what you wrote. Not to mention that you get a tag line for an article that mentions your profession, and in some cases, a bio.
And there is a lot more literary freedom there.
I have all that in nonfiction and Keith I only write what I’m interested in. To me it’s the same game. My bio shows agents what my background is and why I’m qualified to write a particular book where I have extensive experience. That may get it read, but there are always bigger fish with more of the same. In my case I had someone with a Ph.D and inside information about my last story, but he was farther along in the history publishing game. His book sold right over the top of mine. It’s a crap shoot. For crime novelists a stint as a real crime reporter isn’t a bad idea. That’s an equally tough gig to get, but Connelly did it.
I don’t think folks are looking at the records of the successful here. There’s always a lot of training the newbies and vanity press supporters don’t have, yet they gripe about things not being fair. Look closer.
Experience in that cliche comes in the form of seasonal jobs and internships. I have one right now. Unfortunately for your conclusion, vanity press books and small presses that resemble that model closely don’t count in the writing biz. Walk into a small newspaper with a Journalism degree which I now have, earning it at 51, and talk about your two vanity press nonfiction books and see what the editor says? I would’nt do it, because I have the answer.
This raises an interesting question. I know that companies like iUniverse publish poetry as well as prose, but what about plays? I would imagine that there are formating conventions that would need to be observed, but I wonder if as performance pieces plays might benefit from POD, especially if one wanted to promote a new play or something.
I know very little about this, but would be interested in hearing the thoughts of those who know more.
Mac is better than PC.
[Why WOULDN’T it be in a writer’s best interest to have their book available in brick-and-mortar bookstores?]
Lee,
If you’re an established author or have enough money in the budget to pay to get on one of the front tables (or a publisher willing to do it for you), being in bookstores can be a plus.
But for an unknown writer with a first book at a small (and equally unknown) press with a miniscule marketing budget, then being one of 50,000 other books sitting spine out on bookshelves is a convenience for the person who hears about you and always buys their books there and not much else.
With the number of titles published annually approaching the 200,000 mark, published writers need to go to the readers, not sit (figuratively) on shelves waiting for the readers to come to them. When even writers doing tours paid for by their publishers end up reading to empty rooms, we need to think of how to be different.
Being in bookstores is only one aspect of marketing a book these days. And not necessarily the best one, especially for fiction. Yes, if you have a niche nonfiction book that’s really unique, then being in B&N et al. is absolutely what you need to do doing. If you’re Jane Newauthor with your first mystery novel, however fabulous it is, there are things you need to do first.
We happily work with bookstores who agree to carry our titles. We encourage our folks to approach as many as they can manage. But we don’t consider bookstores our primary outlet at this point in time because we know their objections to POD. We also believe we can change that, at least enough that the books are accepted for what they are rather than for how they were printed.
I have deleted a string of comments here that have nothing to do with the very interesting topic at hand. Let’s keep the comments on the topic. Mark, you have your own blog, if you want to veer into other areas, please do it there.
Karen brings up an interesting point. Is POD/Vanity a useful outlet to publish plays? It seems like it might be a way to make some sales to colleges or community theatres, assuming you could get people’s attention.
(Sorry, Lee.)
Reposting…my response to David’s question was removed.
Since most professional play booklets I’ve seen were just that–plain booklets with titles and print–something at Lulu or Cafepress wouldn’t look all that different.
[Why WOULDN’T it be in a writer’s best interest to have their book available in brick-and-mortar bookstores?]
I’ve often wondered why small presses don’t focus on making a noticable presence in a handful of stores — in other words, have the publisher connect with a few bookstores and spend the $$ to get the bookstore to give their books more than “spine on the shelf” presence. I realize that a small press simply doesn’t have the ability to pay for the kind of presence in LOTS of bookstores that the big publishers have but it would seem to be well worth the money for the PUBLISHER to invest in making a visible inroad into the bookstores in the vacinity of each of their authors.
If they keep their lists small enough and really push each book (even if only in the area around their authors), wouldn’t that assist hugely in any promotional efforts done by the authors?
I know some small presses have a specific niche that they can targer effectively without bookstores. Thousands of books each year are produced that never need to be in bookstores because the audience for the book is served directly. But if the small publisher has a more general list — and many do — I cannot see any situation where having the publisher make a determined push to put books in the store venues within promotional distance around each author would not be a SERIOUS selling bonus. Considering that online sales are only a small fraction of booksales — we really do know that readers like stores where they can touch and handle product.
Small presses do focus on independent stores, in the mystery field at least. Companies like Ugly Town, Five Star, Poisoned Pen, etc. sell pretty much exclusively through the mystery bookstores (and online, of course), as far as I know. I believe companies like Point Blank (a POD) also have a presence in them.
Unfortunately, we don’t have a mystery bookstore in this area (nearest one is Baltimore), so I haven’t seen the wares lately.
Actually, Curious, the online sales are more than you think. My imprint actually sells better in ebook. I have a bestselling author who literally lives off her royalties from ebooks.
Reasons are:(Pertains only to my site, powered by Ebookad)
1.You buy one book, you get seven formats.
2.You have an online bookshelf on a main database. Your computer crashes, you just sign on to your bookshelf and download them again. No loss.
3. You can buy a new book anytime, anywhere there is Internet.
4. If the book is changed, improved, or expanded and you’ve already bought it, the new version replaces the old. No need to repurchase.
4. No deforestation.
5. You can load a pile of books on one bottom-range Palm Pilot or other reader. I was merrily reading a Margaret Atwood tale while waiting for a plane, and overheard a person complaining they forgot their book, and were bored. I asked him if he had a PDA, and told him about ebooks. He was most pleased wit the idea. You can literally have a range of good books sitting in your bag whenever you need them.
Ah, so genre might have something to do with how small publishers market? Small publishers of mysteries would have mystery bookstores. And I know romance and erotica both do well with online sales (because I know of writers making decent money selling those online.) But what of a general-list small publisher? Online sales of non-romance/erotica haven’t been impressive for most (though I know some horror writers who say they do okay that way). And if you try to reach every independent bookstore scattershot around the country, you’re back to being just a single book on a shelf….but do any of them actually do targeted sales to stores around their authors, paying for more than just a single title on a shelf — maybe for poster space or face-out?
Curious:
That is a method used. From what our people tell me, a lot of booksellers are open to doing booksignings on their site, even if you aren’t on their shelves. Even the big boys, if you’re persistent.
I do wonder how much forest is actually ground up for books as opposed to all the other uses of trees. Has anyone ever researched that or is it just something folks say? Do books really make a serious dent in trees?
But anyway, that’s beside the point. You say you do well in online sales — I have to admit I kind of scanned this thread — you write erotica, is that right? I had heard erotica is doing MUCH better online than it does in print since it can hit a more educated market without wondering what folks think when you’re seen slipping into an adult bookstore. And you can sell literary erotica online instead of just glued-together sex scenes which is found in so much sex-focused print material (or was back in college when I read it.) I suspect the Internet has probably IMPROVED the genre of erotica — if I were to take a pie-in-the-sky guess.
What if a person wrote — say, thrillers or political intrigue. Would that do as well? It’s so easy to go into a bookstore, browse, flip through books and buy something you’ve held and touched — plus, you might snag something from the bargain table in a genre like political intrigue. Can online really compete with that or even make a showing against it?
‘And you can sell literary erotica online instead of just glued-together sex scenes which is found in so much sex-focused print material (or was back in college when I read it.) I suspect the Internet has probably IMPROVED the genre of erotica — if I were to take a pie-in-the-sky guess.’
Yes, I both write and publish erotica, and you nailed exactly what I go for: Good books with heat, not heat with a book around it. And it does sell well online. It has made a tentative foray into mainstream booksellers as well, and there’s actually a demand beginning. Ellora’s Cave and New Concepts Publishing are both in chain bookstores, and report excellent sales.
But…Royalties from print books compared to ebooks are greatly diminished. Another great thing about ebooks is the cost is primarily in production, such as paying editors and cover artists. In some cases, this is out in a percentage of sales, so it’s covered.
There are lot more costs involved in both printing and getting a print book into a store, so the royalty balance is effected in a big way. So if you’re all about the benjamins, ebooks are a better go in that genre.
This is another reason we chose not to go with the ‘norm’ method. By going through Booksurge, we control bookstore discount, which means the author gets more money in royalties. We are also considering Lightning Source, whose big plus is getting into the Ingram system.
But back to the thriller question. From what I’ve seen, compared to erotica (adding the disclaimer AT THIS TIME) the other genres do struggle in ebook. But that may be due to the fact that it wasn’t the format it became popular in, unlike erotica. But as ebooks become more accepted, that may change.
And I am talking waaay too much. Where’d everyone else go?
I can see why higher royalties has an appeal and since erotica is doing well in online venues (well enough to begin tempting bookstores — way to go), I can see why it’s working to eschew “normal” distribution. You’re connecting with your readers now, so why change to something that will bring less return and probably not particularly more readers?
But, as a writer whose main focus is readers (actually I would choose less money if it meant more readers, and have done so before) I think most genre are dependent upon good bookstore placement to connect with readers. Let’s say, I decided to sell a book to a small publisher. I can promote effectively to certain areas — my hometown, my present home and the area around it, and through my conference speaking (though I have always thought promoting only to writers was a little insular). Because I could pretty easily get air time, print space, and public speaking venues at both my hometown and present home — I would be really really REALLY unhappy if I wasn’t backed up by book placement in those areas. Because once I promote, readers need to be able to go pick up the book somewhere close-by. A lot of my readers might not LIKE buying online (I know a lot of folks who are scared to death of buying online).
If I am going to build buzz, I would need support and dang well would expect my publisher to provide it. I think even a small publisher could use resources to put books into stores around their authors — authors begging bookstores doesn’t work (the poor schmucks at PA can tell you that) and authors promoting in “real life” have to have bookstore placement or they are spinning their wheels (something else PA folks could tell you about.)
National placement isn’t really an option for tiny publishers — I totally understand that. But for general interest tiny publishers, if the PUBLISHER won’t put your books in the stores around you — I don’t see how they would possibly sell better than a vanity book. As soon as an author goes hat-in-hand to beg placement, they lose.
In the end, though authors can make efforts on their own, it is the publisher’s responsibility for distribution. This is the reason our company pays for booksigning copies and suchlike for events. But being online based (I’m in Massachusetts, one partner is Texas, another in Canada) it’s hard to fly off to say, Florida to push the bookstores. We as a publisher do a lot of promotion for the company as a whole, but the one on one promotion for each author is their responsibility. Even for me.
To answer your other question about small press sales vs. vanity w/o bookstore placement: I posted earlier about Morgan Hawke, one of my authors. We attended the Romantic Times Convention last April. The entire time, she was working the crowd, chatting people up. She had a nice big poster of her book on our display table. Made herself visible, in other words.
She sold out 25 copies of her book in less than twenty minutes at the booksigning, in a room FILLED with authors both big and little pub. And the people who had to be turned away went online and bought it. Her book sold because people wanted it. She didn’t need Barnes and Noble to sell those books. They sold because the author wrote a book that people wanted to read, and made sure they knew about it.
Now, let’s say you get your book in Barnes and Noble. Three copies, maybe, side displayed with a ton of others where it may never see the light of day, compared to twenty-five copies in less than twenty minutes.
Not a common occurence? Perhaps. But Morgan proved it could be done once. So it can be done again.
No matter who publishes your book, as an author the burden of marketing and promotion is going to be in your hands. That if you have opted for the traditional path is going to make that easier is a given–the first thing a B&N CRM will do is check their database to see if you’re there.
What it comes down to is targeting your approach to where it’s most likely to gain acceptance. As David pointed out, genre-specific bookstores are excellent, simply because you know going in the owner/manager likes the kind of book you write.
Here again, though, the caveat that bookstores aren’t the only place to sell books–and perhaps not even the best place–comes into play. We published the first book of a mystery series set in the “Silicon Forest” of Portland OR last year in which the “detective” works in a chip factory. The author did her launch at a local electronics show–and sold every copy.
This same author is a quilter, and has written a series of short stories she gives to a local craft shop to be included in packaged quilt patterns. They also carry copies of her mystery. She sells more copies there than anywhere else.
The thing to keep in mind about our company is that we’re barely toddlers as far as this business goes. We were born five years ago, but it’s only been in the last two years that I’ve garnered enough information and knowledge to develop our marketing concept. Even so, I already see not just us but other parts of the industry moving in our direction.
The existing mindset with many booksellers is that you have to be able to return books because you need to over-order them to ensure you don’t find them out of stock later.
POD books are never out of stock. Our orders ship in 2 business days. All a bookseller needs is to have one or two copies and replace as needed.
But then it’s up to the author–with our help–to get people in there to buy them, to make it worth the bookseller’s while.
We accept a reasonable number of returns, as long as their in fit condition to be resold or used for promotional purposes. Our printer/distributor will do that as well, but the cost is prohibitive. Easier for us to take them and just issue a refund or credit–whichever.
It’s not a common occurrence for ANY new author no one has heard of to sell lots of books, unless the subject is something that stimulates public attention. If the Church had kept quiet, I doubt The DaVinci Code would have done any better than its predecessor–Lord knows, the writing is mediocre and the only thing it really has going for it is pacing.
We feel we have valid reasons for taking the route we are, based on the market, the existing business model, the drawbacks and benefits of POD and any other relevant factor that arises. We aren’t expecting to sell millions of copies this year, or next year, or the year after that. And should the need arise we will, of course, do print runs–but small ones, with the recommendation that bookstores who stock the title replace their initial order with POD.
Stef said: “Yes, I both write and publish erotica… And it does sell well online. It has made a tentative foray into mainstream booksellers as well, and there’s actually a demand beginning. Ellora’s Cave and New Concepts Publishing are both in chain bookstores, and report excellent sales.”
I want to mention that although EC is strictly an erotic romance publisher, NCP is not. NCP publishes both erotic romance and more mainstream romance. Neither of my NCP books going into Waldenbooks are erotic romance. Erotic romance is a big seller for NCP, but so are futuristic and paranormal romances– something that the NY houses have ignored to a great extent until recently. EC and NCP seem to be filling a “hole” in the market left by New York publishers, which presumably helps explain why their books have been picked up by major chains.
It’s interesting to note, however, that NCP has tried mysteries, straight sci-fi, and children’s fiction, and none of them have done well. Again, I think this is to a great degree a genre thing… there is a fairly large (and growing) market of romance readers that is willing to try small press books, and even to pay trade paperback prices for them. This may not be true for other genres or for more general fiction.
Coming at this from my place as a self-publisher of erotica, I was quite surprised when my e-book sales suddenly surpassed my regular POD book sales. The thing is, I don’t honestly know why this happened (not that I’m complaining, mind you), so I’m not sure how to properly exploit the success I’ve had.
Any thoughts on what might have happened, and what I might do?
Jeez, take your kid for a walk and miss all the fooferaw.
Joshua:
I am familiar with it. It makes good press.
Are you familiar with the Jo Walton story? It’s pretty juicy: She wrote a manuscript and sent it, unagented, to a publisher. An editor read it and decided to publish it. She has since won a World Fantasy Award.
Have you heard the Stephan Zielinski story? Actually, it’s the same as Jo Walton’s, without the award. Mr. Zielinski’s book just came out last December.
Have you heard Jim Buther’s story? He went to a convention, met two agents and had them request his books. He’s published with Ace now.
What about John Scalzi? This actually is a good one. Mr. Scalzi wrote a novel and posted it on the web. Then he wrote and posted another. He’s a professional non-fiction writer and he bounces around blogdom reading and making comments. An editor followed a link back to his blog, then started reading his second novel, then offered to publish it.
Stef has followed your own link to your blog. Mark York has had people go to his blog. I’m guessing it’s time to jump on this trend before it becomes old hat.
And yet, when I walk into Borders or B&N, I see row after row of novels on the shelves. Writers die. They quit the business. Their second book sells fewer copies than their first, which means no third book.
These are empty slots for you to fill, if you write the book a publisher thinks readers will buy.
I read elsewhere in this thread that 200,000 books are being published every year. Assuming this figure doesn’t count PunishAmerica, we know they can’t all be cookbooks.
When I walk into a bookstore, I don’t think: “An agent told me publishers want non-fiction.” I think: “Damn! Look at all those novels! I have to up my game and get on these shelves.
Vanity publishers want you to think the game is rigged. Agents and editors know the bar is high. Struggling wannabes want to blame some faceless marketing department rather than question the value of their work. And perfectly intelligent people hear the same thing over and over from so many sources that they start believing it.
If I was you (and I know I’m not) I would stop worrying about the rare good books that get passed over, and walk into a book store and enjoy the many, many good books that are waiting for you to buy.
I didn’t want to comment but I can’t resist on this one. I couldn’t agree with Haryy more on his last thesis. Completely.
Now if someone of merit in publishing comes to my blog I’ll report back with the news. So far only those of a lesser station have. And they didn’t bring good tidings. Good post.
How about that Jim B.?
Damn good advice:
“Here’s the secret of how to get published: keep going.
There is an enormous weedout factor for wannabe writers. The good news is that you aren’t competing with every published schmoe out there. You’re only up against the rest of the wannabes, and it’s like the old axiom about being chased by a grizzly bear. You don’t have to run faster than the bear to get away. You just have to run faster than the guy next to you.
Keep trying when the guy next to you quits in disgust. Keep writing when the girl next to you sobs and throws her manuscripts into the fire. Keep conducting yourself like a professional, and you’ll get someone to believe that you are one.
If you’re lucky, maybe even yourself.”
Thanks, Mark.
I’ve been reading all of these posts with great interest. Thanks everyone who contributed to the discussion – you’ve covered a lot of points on both sides of the debate.
An issue that is amazing to me is that generally authors who self-publish are looked down upon by other authors in the industry. In the comic book industry, it is an entirely different matter as writer/artists who self publish are actually revered for their “independent spirit”. There is a sense that independence is the goal all comic writers are working toward – I think primarily because they will then own their characters and stories outright. That is something that won’t happen if someone publishes through the big two publishers – DC or Marvel. This is a case of apples and oranges, but we’re all in the same fruit basket right?
I think the same way, Bill. We can namecall and posture about, playing the mine-is-bigger-than-yours game, or we can share our experiences and information is a constructive manner, without picking on other’s choices and preferences. Being in the same basket is a quite suitable analogy, and how I run my game.
I don’t understand some people’s need to badger others into agreeing with them, rather than accepting that different perspectives exist and try to broaden one’s horizons.
Also, there is the simple factor of the marketplace deciding how POD and Vanity press’s shake out. If they don’t make money at it, or derive some sort of satisfaction from publishing their books – the books and the author/publishers will disappear.
The marketplace will decide it…the law of economics will apply.
No, new marks just keep coming. Those are the numbers the vanity prublishers are going for. The marketplace HAS decided. They fail.
Hello,
Why is it that when I search for something on the internet, and come up with many sites that specifically state the exact name of what I am looking for, do NOT actually come up with that info when I click on it?
While looking for something, your site came up as one of the link options. Well, in order to find what I was looking for (which I gave up on with you) I would have had to read through about an hours worth of crap that I had NO interest in whatsoever.
Perhaps you can narrow it down for me. The subject line that I wanted to read about was comments etc concerning a company called New Concepts Publishing.
If you do not have any info concerning them, why did your site come up when I typed in their name? Also, if your site does have info for them, why don’t you make it even just the least bit simpler to get to?
Thank you.
Carol
Here ya go.
http://www.newconceptspublishing.com/submissionguidelines.htm
Looks like a ebook publisher trumpting how they’ve “changed the marketplace.” They haven’t, ebooks are a tiny fraction of said market. It looks like another vanity press to me, but I didn’t look close.
There are many ways to get your books onto the shelves. For example, I incorporated a small publisher (Dark Sky Publishing) when then published my first novel, Night Laws. That book has been picked up by Borders, B&N and many indpendent stores. The bottom line is that stores do not have the prejudices found amoung writers and critics. The stores basically want to know if it is a book likely to sell and whether they can buy it through established distribution venues such as Ingram and Baker & Taylor, i.e., they want it to be returnable. So, for those of you thinking outside the box, good for you.
Picked up? As in listed? Or stocked? Because I know a writer with St. Martin’s who didn’t get a new release stocked anywhere so this sounds like more pipedreaming to me. His previous one was and now lives on the remainder aisle so that’s in a store. I question if your self-published book is. I doubt it.
Mark: Thanks for accusing me of pipedreaming, and for doubting that Night Laws will actually be stocked in stores. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but yes it will be as of March 1, 2006. Granted, I don’t know if that will be on a full national scale, but I know for sure that it will be on the shelves of every Borders and B&N store in Colorado. I also know that I’ve shipped many hundreds of books to Baker & Taylor distribution warehouses that serve markets outside of Colorado.
Your comment about a St. Martin’s book NOT getting onto the shelves is an appropriate one. Lots of books, most in fact, do not actually get shelved, even when they come from big publishers. This just proves my point that the bookstores do not have an inherent built in prejudice about a book based on the publisher who submits it. Booksellers evaluate books on their own merits and even say so in their submission guidelines.
Carol sounds like a complete moron who has poor social skills and no idea how search engines work — she’s the perfect customer for a vanity press.
Will be is a long way from being. Report back on how many copies actually show up where. It’s entirely possible to get even a PA book in a local store as we’ve seen. You but them first as you have done. In fact the only places listed for the St. Martin’s book were where the author lived. They claimed it was in two stores in the whole state. That’s a prescription for very few sales, which isn’t the norm for St. Martin’s but standard for self-publishing. You’ll find that out for yourself.