In a comment to my post "What Stupid About It, someone asked what the difference is between someone who writes tie-ins and someone who writes fanfic… beyond the fact that tie-ins are written with the consent of the author/right’s holder.
There’s a big difference.
I was hired to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER and MONK novels. It’s something I am being paid to do. It’s not like I woke up one morning with a burning desire to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER novels, wrote one up, and sent it off to a publisher (or, as a fanficcer would do, posted it on the web). The publisher came to me and asked me to write them.
I would never write a book using someone else’s characters unless I was hired to do so. It would never even occur to me because the characters aren’t mine.
Given a choice, I would only write novels and TV shows of my own creation. But I have to make a living and I take the work that comes my way…and that includes writing-for-hire, whether it’s on someone else’s TV show or original tie-in novels based on characters I didn’t create. Ultimately, however, what motivates me as a writer is to express myself…not the work of someone else.
That’s the big difference between me and a fanficcer.
Given a choice, fanficcers "write" fanfic.
Reposted as requested…
Given a choice, I would only write novels and TV shows of my own creation. But I have to make a living and I take the work that comes my way…and that includes writing-for-hire, whether it’s on someone else’s TV shows or original tie-in novels based on characters I didn’t create.
Fair enough.
But seriously: have you never watched some show or movie and had an idea pop into your head that you think would be good for that show/movie? Didn’t you enjoy working with the DIAGNOSIS MURDER or MONK material at all, even though it wasn’t originally your creation?
(moved from old thread to new thread)
“Given a choice, fanficcers “write” fanfic. ”
Except, of course, for the writers named earlier in this thread, who write both.
“I would never write a book using someone else’s characters unless I was hired to do so.”
A perfectly reasonable stance; however, there are other accepted writers (Laurie R. King for one) who choose to write books based on someone else’s characters. There’s also Jean Rhys’s “Wide Sargasso Sea”, which must by law be invoked in all such discussions.
The universals in this discussion are giving me hives. No real writer would write fanfic. No fanfic writer also writes real fiction. No real writer has ever learned how to write from fanfiction.
Apparently counterexamples are not sufficient to refute these universal statements.
So, you’re a “real” writer because you wrote something for money about which you would have no interest otherwise. But a person who writes something simply for the joy of it and because they want to is not a real writer. Hmmmmm. That’s an interesting argument.
<<>>
Actually, yes. Look at it this way: Your Aunt Sadie may make the best fried chicken in the world. All of her friends ask her to make it for their picnics. Aunt Sadie loves making fried chicken and pumpkin pie and home-fries. Aunt Sadie is an excellent cook. She may, arguably, be the best cook in the world. But until someone pays Aunt Sadie to cook, she is not a professional chef. A guy who works in a restaurant and is paid to cook what the customers order, even if he personally loathes fried chicken, IS a professional chef.
Swich nouns and apply.
“Professional writer” is not quite the same thing as “real writer”.
Emily Dickinson was real but not professional. [insert your favorite bestseller here] is professional but not real.
So a person who rides a board over waves isn’t a “surfer” unless they get paid?
I think the “Aunt Sadie” analogy is flawed: Aunt Sadie may not be a “chef” or “professional chef,” but she IS a cook. A person who cooks is a cook, for the duration of the time they spend cooking.
A person who writes is a writer for the duration of the time they spend writing.
IE: when I read a document at work written by one of my fellow attorneys or a judge or whatnot, I say, “so-and-so is a good/bad/interesting/scary writer.” The person may not be a professional writer, but rather a person writing about their profession, but they possess a skill at writing.
I write. I write fanfiction. I write original fiction. I write papers for school on all manner of topics with all manner of research. When I do those things, I am exercising my skill as a writer.
(Maybe I’m not a GOOD writer–that’s a debate for another day–but I am a writer.)
In response to Alina:
Switch the nouns, and the difference is still simply who gets paid and who doesn’t. Both are still real writers (or chefs).
I’ve read published authors who write atrociously. I’ve read unpublished authors (some of them fic writers) whose writing is lovely. Someone who writes is a writer. Someone who gets paid to do it is a professional writer. Doesn’t make him or her more real – or more talented, for that matter.
I don’t write, so I’m not a writer. Pretty simple.
(I do make kick-ass fried chicken, though.)
Hey, Madonna got paid for writing her children’s books but that didn’t make her a “real writer.” It made her a marketable commodity. Money doesn’t make things “real” — though it sure makes things easier.
Yes, writing for a check is definitely different from writing from pure enjoyment. I’ve written for a check for many years. I’ve also written for pure enjoyment (some of which later produced a check, but not all). One was not more “real” than the other. In fact, PERSONALLY, I considered the second — writing for pure enjoyment — more “real.” Now, none of what I wrote was fanfiction (I ain’t that big of a fan of anyone but me) but I started getting paid for my writing a long long long long time before I felt like I became a “real writer.”
The problem with symantic games is that no one is going to agree is on who ought to be making the rules.
Hey, Madonna got paid for writing her children’s books but that didn’t make her a “real writer.” It made her a marketable commodity. Money doesn’t make things “real” — though it sure makes things easier.
Well, no, I’d say she’s a real writer.
The question merely becomes whether or not she’s a good writer. 😉
Off to the dictionary:
pro·fes·sion·al
adj.
1) Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
2) Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
3) Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
4) Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
****
There are a lot of writers out there, Ms. Adams, who haven’t yet managed the check but who are professional in that they conform to the standards of the profession. They write, rewrite, query, submit, learn, hone, do it again. They set deadlines for themselves and work at it every spare minute and probably during minutes they can’t spare. In other word, they go after it like they already receive the check.
Those are the unpublished writers who have the best chance of becoming published writers and moving to number three and four on the list.
******
To the others: As to what Mr. Goldberg writes, I’m still stymied that is flung out there as any kind of comparison to fanfiction. He’s a professional who gets paid for what he does at the request of the creators of the work. But, he already said that. He’s said that a number of times. Over and over. In English. Grammatically correct English.
To the others: As to what Mr. Goldberg writes, I’m still stymied that is flung out there as any kind of comparison to fanfiction. He’s a professional who gets paid for what he does at the request of the creators of the work.
I think that particular issue centers around not the “job description,” so to speak, but the thought processes that go into producing Lee’s product.
Media fiction/tie-in novels/etc: You take the base story/characters/world created by somebody else, and you add segments or sequels to the stories that already exists. Fans/readers/watchers of the original story are drawn to yours because of their appreciation for the original. You may or may not do it at the initial request of the original creator, but you get paid.
Fanfiction: You take the base story/characters/world created by somebody else, and you add segments or sequels to the stories that already exists. Fans/readers/watchers of the original story are drawn to yours because of their appreciation for the original. You may or may not have specific/blanket permission from the original creator, you don’t get paid, and your story may or may not be godawful.
The similarities don’t lie in the profession so much as the process of creating the written product.
Romeo Won’t Be Tied Down
I just have to point out a few things: (1) he’s entitled to dislike fanfic; (2) he is getting a lot of mileage out of professing his dislike. Rydra Wong points out this very thoughtful essay by Naomi Novik, who summarizes my own opinion (which is also…
Yes, Lee was very clear about the difference between writing derivative works for a publisher and writing derivative works for entertainment.
Now, as a result, I *MIGHT* buy the idea that fanfiction represents an unhealthy interest in a chosen work (which is one of the sneers against it) because you could be using your writing talent to produce something sale-able.
But, I would NOT buy the idea that creating a derivative work is somehow more “writerly” if you got paid and wouldn’t have written it if you didn’t get paid. Writing for pay is certainly a more efficient use of your time and talents (especially in our money driven world) but it is more “writerly?”
Are we only real writers if we work for pay — thus making Madonna more of a writer’s writer than Emily Dickenson (for example)?
One person on another post argued that real writers ONLY work on their own projects — well, except when paid. Sorry, that “Well, except when paid” doesn’t buy it as an artistic distinction. If “real writers” only work on their own creations, then ghost books and paid/authorized works AREN’T real writing. You can’t tack on some “unless money is involved” and expect it to fly.
I once wrote an article once that needed line drawings to illustrate the piece. I did the drawings. They paid me $200 a piece for the drawings. That did not make me a “real artist” — nor even a “real illustrator.” It meant the publisher figured my drawings were good enough to work for the reader so they paid.
Now, if Lee’s arguement is that BOTH his derivative works and fanfiction are real writing and congruent — but his reflects economic reality (namely, he will write whatever he must to keep food on the table, whether his passion is involved or not) and fanfiction reflects an unfortunate preoccupation with the work of other creators — THEN, I’ll accept his explanation as being valid. Otherwise if fanfiction isn’t real because it’s based on someone else’s work, then PAID derivative works aren’t real either. Thus, Lee would be an author of real writing…and the fake derivative stuff that he got paid for.
There are a couple other differences between what you do in your tie-in novels and fan fiction:
1. After you write your tie in novel, you typically don’t then rush out to stand in line in front of a theatre NOT playing Star Wars.
2. While I happen to know you look fancy in one, you never actually wear a cape anymore.
3. While your books aren’t always considered the greatest works of fiction in history, they at least don’t have a lot of adverbs in them, he ejaculated furtively.
4. When you write hurt/comfort scenes between Barry Van Dyke and Dick Van Dyke, they typically don’t end with Barry’s dick in Dick’s ass. Typically.
5. When you finish your novel, you don’t then have to explain to mom and dad why you failed biology.
6. If someone disagrees with the tone and content of your novel and talks about it on a blog or a radio show, you usually don’t then go back to a community of 17 year olds and have them write a bunch of comments so circular in their arguements that one can only imagine they’ve not yet learned the concept of sophisms.
7. You’re never asked to defend your novels in public square.
8. When you write man-on-man action or girl-on-girl, it’s fucking hot.
9. If given the chance to have the entire cast of Babylon 5 have a bukkake party on you, you’d probably decline the opportunity.
10. Now stay with me here: Who really gives a fuck? Really? Who gives a fuck?
Tomorrow’s headline: TOD GOLDBERG OPENS CAN, WHUPS ASS.
It seems to me that the arguments of the pro-fanficcers boil down to “we like doing it and don’t see anything wrong with it.”
The same is true of anal sex, but people normally don’t do that in the town square.
1. After you write your tie in novel, you typically don’t then rush out to stand in line in front of a theatre NOT playing Star Wars.
If fanwriters “typically” rushed out to stand in line in front of the wrong theater, that line would’ve been a HELL of a lot longer, Tod.
The fanwriter contingent and the costume-wearing contingent of any show/book/movie aren’t necessarily one and the same.
2. While I happen to know you look fancy in one, you never actually wear a cape anymore.
See the second part of my response to 1.
3. While your books aren’t always considered the greatest works of fiction in history, they at least don’t have a lot of adverbs in them, he ejaculated furtively.
The porn-writing contingent and the fanwriting contingent of any show aren’t one and the same either. Although I shall concede that the godawful writers tend to outnumber the good ones in any fanwriting area.
4. When you write hurt/comfort scenes between Barry Van Dyke and Dick Van Dyke, they typically don’t end with Barry’s dick in Dick’s ass. Typically.
See above mention of the pornwriting contingent versus fanwriting contingent. All pornfic writers are fanfic writers but not all fanfic writers are pornfic writers. All bugs are insects but not all insects are bugs. Didn’t they teach you that in grade school?
5. When you finish your novel, you don’t then have to explain to mom and dad why you failed biology.
Are you telling me you never skimped on another obligation because you were wrapped up in your novel? That’s as much a danger with original fiction as it is in fanfiction.
6. If someone disagrees with the tone and content of your novel and talks about it on a blog or a radio show, you usually don’t then go back to a community of 17 year olds and have them write a bunch of comments so circular in their arguements that one can only imagine they’ve not yet learned the concept of sophisms.
No, but you apparently go back to your blog and whine to all your buddies about the fact that the radio talk show host didn’t talk to you enough and diss everyone who disagreed with you!
7. You’re never asked to defend your novels in public square.
Uh, fanwriters aren’t asked to do that either, Tod.
8. When you write man-on-man action or girl-on-girl, it’s fucking hot.
That’s not a difference. It’s not hot in fanfiction OR original fiction!
9. If given the chance to have the entire cast of Babylon 5 have a bukkake party on you, you’d probably decline the opportunity.
When I figure out what a bukkake party is, I’ll come up with a crushing reply!
10. Now stay with me here: Who really gives a fuck? Really? Who gives a fuck?
You do, apparently, having taken the time to stroll over to your bro’s blog and give such a well-articulated listing of your ill-considered thoughts on the subject!
Well, you can be an authorized but godawful writer, or you can be an unauthorized but brilliant writer. I leave it to you to guess in what category you fall in my opinion, Lee.
Other combinations are equally possible of course. Authorized and brilliant would be the ideal – unfortunately it’s rather seldom. Unauthorized and godawful rather is the norm, but so is authorized and godawful. Just because someone paid you to do it and it gets actually pressed between book covers doesn’t make your work good or even worthwhile reading.
Of course it makes it worthwhile writing for you, as you get paid – which seems to be the only thing you care about.
kete
Who really gives a fuck? Really? Who gives a fuck?
Well, your brother does. He goes on a rip once a month ranting about all the folks writing questionable quality fiction when he would prefer they were off playing violent video games or some other wholesome sport.
Apparently Claire does. She seems to think fanfic is like Mar-i-ju-wanna…you start up puffing a bit and writing innocent stories about Dr. Sloan meeting some nice middle-aged Angela Lansbury type and the next thing you know you’re stark crazy, locked in the bathroom, penning cramped prose about Dr. Sloan and that young fella on the show.
Apparently a great many other folks do — otherwise evertime Lee goes on a rip, a single fanfic proponent would show up, castigate him a bit, and everyone would roll their eyes without bothering to post and the topic would be closed until Lee’s next rip.
It’s nice to know you’re jumping it to join “those who give a fuck” — it was lonely til you showed up and we always enjoy seeing you give a fuck. I wish I had a camera.
— Oh, by the way, you should ask Ann Crispen how many times those who write series tie-in books must wearily and with great annoyance defend their novels in public. You might learn something new.
The problem with making the argument that anyone who scrawls words on a page is a writer is that it diminishes the spirit of what writing really is. Is the guy who scratches a filthy limerick on the wall above the urinal a writer? What about the proverbial monkey that types Hamlet? How about Jack Torrance in The Shining, endlessly typing “All work and no play…”
Is it merely the physical act of typing words on a computer screen that makes one a writer? Or is there something more to it?
Surely there exists some standard of what makes one a writer and what doesn’t. The problem, of course, is that if you asked any 10 different people you’d get 10 different answers. So basically we’re reduced to paraphrasing Justice Stewart.
To my mind, though, one of the things that makes one a writer is the spark of creativity that takes shape in the form of original words on a page. If you’re merely copying or parroting someone else’s words, ideas, characters, etc., you’re not bringing a unique, artistic vision to the page. Therefore such “writing” falls short of the standard.
So it is by Lee’s original works that he earns the title “writer” and his tie-in stuff is just how he earns money. And, if it has any effect at all, the tie-in stuff lessens his status as “writer”?
The problem with making the argument that anyone who scrawls words on a page is a writer is that it diminishes the spirit of what writing really is.
I do beg your pardon, David, allow me to amend my statement:
A person who puts IDEAS into words on paper is a writer. (Ie a person who researches and writes biographies/nonfiction, media tie-ins, original fiction, treatises on law/economics, you get the idea.)
What if they’re someone else’s ideas?
What if they’re someone else’s ideas?
“True wit is nature to advantage dressed,/What oft was thought but ne’er so well expressed.” — Alexander Pope.
What if they’re someone else’s ideas?
So long as enough of the writer’s OWN ideas are put into the final product (ie interpretation, elaboration, transformation, etc) to create something new, a derivative or research-based work is still a writing.
If I were to take “Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone” and copy it word-for-word, that would not be writing, I agree: it would be copying.
But during the two years of waiting for Harry Potter 6 to come out, if I pick up events in the series where Potter 5 left off and add my ideas, a few new characters, lots of new adventures, speculation, and a healthy dose of wishful thinking and “what if”, that’s writing.
I shall concede that it is not AS original or creative as an entirely original work, but that doesn’t mean it’s not writing.
It’s just derivative.
I notice that whenever I see a post from Lee about fan fiction, he gets about 200 comments and 100 of them are from Jocelyn.
Memo to Jocelyn: Lee and his brother do not like fan fiction, they don’t like what it’s about, and your coming onto this board and drowning him in commentary is not going to change that. You’re not going to change their minds. I wonder why you keep trying, why you can’t just agree to disagree and let it go.
Memo to Jocelyn: Lee and his brother do not like fan fiction, they don’t like what it’s about, and your coming onto this board and drowning him in commentary is not going to change that. You’re not going to change their minds. I wonder why you keep trying, why you can’t just agree to disagree and let it go.
Memo to Gomez: I enjoy debating complicated things with smart people who disagree with me. I do not “drown” anyone with commentary–for every post of mine, there are responses or arguments by the anti-fanfic crowd that I can usually think of a counter for. I wonder why you and others keep trying to persuade me not to participate in a discussion about an issue that matters to me?
Maybe they just hope you’ll… I don’t know… go out on a date or something instead. You do seem a little obsessed with the subject, and I don’t say that to be mean or anything. Gomez is right, though, you do flood the blog with comments anytime it comes up.
I think the issue is that he blogs on his opinion about fanfic, then here you come saying, “NO NO NO YOU’RE WRONG!” Rinse, repeat. At some point, even the most zealous supporter would say, “You know, he’s just not gonna see it my way. Time to move on.”
I can see both sides of the equation: fanfic writers do it because they enjoy it, Lee thinks it’s a waste of a writer’s time.
The issue that leads to entries like Lee’s is with such writers trying to commercially sell their work, which by law is illegal because the characters, franchise and works upon which they are based is the legal and intellectual property of someone else. If fanfic writers simply did it for enjoyment, there would be no need for a raging discussion. But the problem is that many feel they can someday sell such work for profit.
Try and convince someone that it should be perfectly legal for someone else to use their characters and franchise for profit without paying the original holder, and trust me, you’re not gonna change their mind. Try to see the other point of view.
Maybe they just hope you’ll… I don’t know… go out on a date or something instead. You do seem a little obsessed with the subject, and I don’t say that to be mean or anything. Gomez is right, though, you do flood the blog with comments anytime it comes up.
In all fairness, I admit I’ve been posting heavily this time around, but in my defense, the posts of the past couple of days got my back up.
As far as obsessed…well, I told you once I was a “die-hard” fanwriter, and I wasn’t joking. I love it as a pasttime, and I also love the complicated legalities of it–I’m a geek. So sue me. And when a good debate gets going on it, I like to participate.
Face it; post on a controversial subject and you’re going to get remarks from people who disagree with you.
As for a date…hey, there’s only so many hours in a day, between writing, school, and lawyer-training. I’d like more dates as much as the next gal, but you can’t have everything! 😉
If fanfic writers simply did it for enjoyment, there would be no need for a raging discussion.
I haven’t heard Lee complaining about fanfic writers profiting. I have heard him, and his friends, assert that they wear capes, are incapable of writing publishable works, and aren’t real writers.
Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong blog entries?
Ah, Gomez, now there is something I can totally agree with. There is no moral basis for arguing that fanfiction writers should get money or be able to sell the fanfiction they write as long as there is someone (or a company of someones) to whom the original idea belongs. In fact, to be even distantly acceptable — fanfiction must be a no money experience because any money made should be handed over to the originator of the premise. The fanfiction writer wasn’t ASKED to add to the story and therefore has no room to expect money for it. If they want money, they need to write and sell original fiction in the genre until they become impressive enough to have some possible chance of getting a gig writing series tie-ins.
An adjunct to this would be that fanfiction writers have no basis to cry if someday the “universe” in which they write produces some paid work with any kind of similarity to the fanfiction — or, for that matter, to cry if another fanfiction writer “borrows” their created characters and uses them for more fanfiction. They were “borrowing” from the creator without paying for the right so they have ZERO room to cry if they feel someone “borrowed” from them with paying. You can’t have it both ways.
Hee! Elaine, that actually happens in fandom. People who think their fics are just so well known and the original characters that they create are their own and get upset and accuse of plagiarism if anybody uses them. They require that permission be asked. Will go on at length about the ethics of borrowing characters without permission. One gal got upset because ‘somebody’ had used ‘her’ character’s name as their handle for blog. Constantly brought up HER character as the quintessential Mary-sue that wasn’t a Mary-sue. The conversations/fights that happened over just that one character and that one godawful fic put any conversation here to shame.
Another gal insisted that she had her very own ‘arc’ or ‘universe’ and became despondant if people used it, knowingly or unknowingly not understanding it was HERS, HERS, HERS. Became so vocal and upset and needed to be consoled about it so much that when she actually wrote a story using all her tired cliches people thought she was somebody else trying to plagiarize her and went after the story with knives. Then she was upset that people hadn’t recognized that OF COURSE, this was HER story, HER vision, HER universe written by HER because HER style was so distinctive and special. So instead of thanking people for looking out for her, she decided it all a gigantic conspiracy to make her feel bad about her writing.
So, Elaine, apparently ficcers CAN have it both ways.
They can certainly try to have it both ways — but it’s not a logical response.
Much as the ‘fan fiction isn’t real writing’ isn’t a logical response. Of course derivative works are still real writing. There is a lot of real writing that goes into a story whether you created the characters or not. Good heavens, Ann Crispin puts real writing into her books, Lee puts real writing into his — you still need a considerable amount of creativity unless you’re just transcribing an episode straight to the page. Just because they don’t get paid doesn’t make it not real. It might be BAD writing or juvenile writing or inane writing — and it certainly may be unnecessary writing, but it’s still real.
But I digress…yes, I know some fanfiction writers are totally NOT logical about the thing at all. It becomes a kind of religious experience for them. Well, that doesn’t make it true of all — nor does it make their response sensible. What that sense of “ownership” OUGHT to do is make them realize what they *may have* put the originator of the characters and setting through — MAY HAVE — since I know people who really think having fanfiction written of their books is cool. But I’ve found that rabid folks tend to have trouble seeing anything through anyone else’s eyes.
I do also recognize the problem that grows out of this desire for ownership (which is a pretty writerly thing)…it means you stand a chance of getting whacko fanfic writers insisting that the new season of LOST was stolen from them…or some equally absurd notion. But that kind of craziness wasn’t invented by fanfiction writers and it’s not likely to end if you slit the throat of every single fanfic’er, because you’d still get folks with weird self-published crap arguing that the new breakthrough novel was a rip-off of theirs (ask JK Rowling if fanfiction caused her the most trouble or was it the MUGGLE person.)
I accept that fanfiction includes some nutjobs. So does self-publishing and POD…but it doesn’t make them all crazy, or evil, or even obsessive.
To lighten the mood around here, the short of the long, Lee, is you are a hired gun. Fanfictors aren’t.
Which is why you get to wear the spurs and don the black, full-length trenchcoat.
No, never.
On the other hand, if I’m watching a show because I might be up for a staff or freelance gig working on it then, yes, ideas for stories come to me. Otherwise, no.
Of course I did…and do. I couldn’t write the books if I didn’t love what I was doing. But keep in mind, I’ve worked on both shows (as an executive producer on DM and freelancer on MONK), so I already had a great deal of affection for them, and knew the characters well, before the book deals were offered to me.
I don’t see the point you’re trying to make with those questions, Jocelyn. If it was up to me, I wouldn’t write about anybody’s characters but my own…but as a professional writer, I take the jobs that are offered to me, that I think I will enjoy, and that I believe I can do well.
As much as I love DM and MONK, I would never write a piece of fiction based on them unless I was hired to do so…because that would be an utter waste of time.
I know, I know, you don’t think it’s a waste…fine. Let’s agree to disagree on that.
If you want to write a story about Mork from Ork showing up in Babylon 5 and having sex with the lizard head guy, as a personal exercise, or to amuse yourself, or to get yourself off, I don’t have a problem with that, nor should any author, studio, etc. Have fun. It’s when you publish that story, distributing it to others on the Internet, or in a fanzine, that you cross an important line.
I’ve said this a thousand times…but I will say it again. I understand all the creative rationalizations for writing fanfic (it teaches writing, it allows you to explore characters, etc. etc.). We can agree to disagree about that, it makes no difference to me.
What I don’t understand are any of the rationalizations for “publishing” it and doing so without getting the author’s permisison first. If what you’re looking for is feedback on your writing, you can get plenty of that by posting original stories on the net or joining a writing group. So that argument doesn’t fly.
So let’s say, purely for the sake of argument, that I agree that writing fanfic is a great way to have fun and to explore, and develop, your writing skills. Now explain to me the reasons for distributing it and why fanficcers are so vehemently opposed to seeking permission from the author/right’s holder first.
Maybe if you’d just stop posting about fanfic, we could stop having these stupid arguments that just go around in circles. Because let’s face it; the final word on fanfic isn’t going to be here, and all these posts cause is senseless fighting.
No one is forcing you, or anyone else, to comment on what I post here.
I don’t mind if there 1 comment or 1000. At a certain point, I walk away and let the backblog conversation live or die on its own.
“And somebody who merely watches the show says he has a better grasp on the characters and their history than I do? That he’s more emotionally involved in the series than I am?”
Yes, and it’s a good thing to, because if they *weren’t* that involved, your fandom would be DEAD. It takes fan involvement to keep any fandom alive, and the more dedicated they are, the longer it will be remembered. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
I find the idea that you are somehow superior to fanficcers because you are paid to write for certain fandoms to be most amusing, especially when it suggests you couldn’t give a crap about the characters involved, so long as you collect a check.
Lee, you are a glorified fan fiction writer. Deal with it. Why continue to dwell out the “evils” of fan fiction just so you can attempt to convince everyone that you aren’t connected to this particular hobby. And it’s *only* a hobby, Lee. People who are as obsessed with particular fandoms as you are suggesting are rather rare.
If you have that much of a problem with it, stick to solely original material. That way, you can collect money for your original creations and not be mocked for your ultimately hypocritical views.
Being paid to tamper with characters is probably the greater evil since not only are you apparently motivated by greed, I doubt you see the characters as anything other than something that pays the bills.
You know, Lee, there’s an entire conversation going on at Blog X. All sorts of less than complimentary commentary being made regarding this blog and conversation and your ulterior motives for making your posts. I have yet to see one Anti-Ficcer (that’s kinda like the Anti-Christ, except worse) running over there to tell the owner of the blog how very wrong, screwed up, etc., s/he is to feel that way and if S/HE’d just stop posting about fanfiction there wouldn’t be any need for argument.
Actually, if s/he did just stop posting about fanfiction and they all did and they stopped posting fanfiction why…I’d have gotten a whole lot more work done today than I did.
Back to the slog. Real life and all that. Sorry for getting snippy anywhere.
Maybe if you’d just stop posting about fanfic, we could stop having these stupid arguments that just go around in circles.
Personally, I think that on the whole this has been a rational and temperate discussion of a fairly (to me) important issue.
I understand both sides better.
Excellent explanation Lee. The meat and potatoes of the bare bones post I made.
The mention of Laurie King’s Sherlock Holmes novels makes me wonder: Lee, what do you see is the difference between King’s using characters she didn’t develop, versus fanficcers’?
Fanfiction:
A derivative creative work, inspired by an original work, that would not exist if the original work had not been created in the first place.
For example:
Rozencrantz and Guidestern are Dead.
Sorry.
Rozencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead.
Mea culpa
“I find the idea that you are somehow superior to fanficcers because you are paid to write for certain fandoms to be most amusing, especially when it suggests you couldn’t give a crap about the characters involved, so long as you collect a check.”
And that attitude right there is the problem. It’s the copyright holders who have the right to decide who does what with their property. Not fandom. You may not like it, but it’s their decision. They have the right, by law, to create derivative works based on their creations. Fan fiction writers, by law, do not have that same right. Being a fan of something means you like it. Being a fan does not give you any ownership whatsoever. If you feel that as a fan you have more “right” to the property than the owners themselves, I suggest you take a few steps back and re-evaluate your position.
Choosing not to write about anyone else’s characters might been seen as a personal decision. But unless the copyright owner has given their express permission… it is the correct decision. Maybe its a question of manners. I just think it’s incredibly rude for me to say I know better than the creator (or his/her assigned staff, etc) what should happen to their property.
WHO MAY PREPARE A DERIVATIVE WORK?
Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. The owner is generally the author or someone who has obtained rights from the author. Anyone interested in a work who does not know the owner of copyright may search the records of the Copyright Office. Or, the Office will conduct a search at a fee of $75* per hour. For further information, request Circular 22, “How to Investigate the Copyright Status of a Work.”
from http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html
The mention of Laurie King’s Sherlock Holmes novels makes me wonder: Lee, what do you see is the difference between King’s using characters she didn’t develop, versus fanficcers’?
Oops. I see this question gets asked a lot in the previous entry. I am curious though about where Holmes fiction stands — I assume King got permission to write the stories featuring Holmes from the Doyle estate, although she wasn’t hired to write one the way Caleb Carr was. (At least, I don’t think she was. Guess I should find out for certain before stating that definitively.)
The Doyle estate no longer holds copyright to Holmes; he’s fallen into the public domain. Conan Doyle died in 1930; by the life-plus-70-years rule common in Europe, the works became public domain in 2000. “The Case Book of Sherlock Holmes” is the only Sherlock Holmes book still in copyright in the U.S., because of the recent extension.
Note that a courteous author may still choose to seek the estate’s permission.
Bravo, Jason. Well said. And well worth repeating.
Last month, I excerpted a brilliant post from someone else’s blog about the phenomenon of “fan entitlement” that you might enjoy:
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2005/05/marmaduchy.html
I’ll be honest with you. I hold tie-in works in rather low regard. Personally, I see very little difference in the creative processes behind them. An earlier commenter did a far better job of communicating the similarities than I could. I mean no offense by this, so please, do not take it that way. I honestly don’t understand how someone can turn their creative processes on and off like a switch based on what they’re paid to work on. It just seems like a forced, unnatural way of thinking to me.
The creative juices are always flowing in me. My mind is always working on a story, sometimes it’s a fanfic, but most of the time, I’m dreaming up my own characters and stories. Usually, I push it aside in order to focus on whatever task I have but the stray thought still occasionally pops up.
I’ve never been able to get into the concept of writing for money. For me, money is simply a fringe benefit. When I write, I write for the sheer joy of it. Like you, my main motivation is to express myself. As long as I am able to do that, I am happy.
In fanfiction, I write for myself. I write what I would have liked to have seen take place or more commonly, I give myself an explanation for something the original creator did not.
However, that’s not the focus of this response. Though I disagree with some of your views regarding fanfiction, I find myself agreeing with several points that you mentioned. I, too, agree fervently that a fanfic writer has no business seeking monetary compensation for a derivative work that was not commissioned by the creator. If someone doesn’t want to give the creator rights to their story, they shouldn’t write fanfiction. I’ve lost count of how many times I’d start work on a piece, get halfway through it, and decide that the idea was too good to use for a fanfic, and strip it.
As a very passionate writer, I have difficulty understanding how one can exert such control over their creative processes to the point that they only blink on when certain conditions (such as whether or not they’re being paid) are met. It’s just sounds so alien to me.
On a side note, I’m very grateful that this blog was pointed out to me because I’m learning more about a very different point of view here. It’s interesting to see what the other side thinks and why.
Gomez: Lee and his brother do not like fan fiction, they don’t like what it’s about, and your coming onto this board and drowning him in commentary is not going to change that. You’re not going to change their minds. I wonder why you keep trying, why you can’t just agree to disagree and let it go.
Because they have yet to come up with a really convincing argument? Because it’s fun to debate?
Gomez: If fanfic writers simply did it for enjoyment, there would be no need for a raging discussion. But the problem is that many feel they can someday sell such work for profit.
Oooh! I spot a generalisation so massive that it just took over Manhattan. Where do you get that idea that fanfiction writers dream they can sell their derivative work from?
Claire: So, Elaine, apparently ficcers CAN have it both ways.
Well, no, Claire, not exactly.
They can try to have it both ways, rather as Lee can try to convince us that using other people’s ideas without permission is a bastardisation of the original creators’ unique vision, whereas using them with permission makes doing the very same thing creations of golden genius. No doubt it is the exchange of filthy lucre which brings about this curious transformation.
But many on Fandom_wank and the Godawful forum will point out to anyone who tries the argument you put forward how very stupid they are being. It should not need saying, but I will do so anyway for the avoidance of doubt: that someone tried an argument does not mean they succeeded.
It is also possibly worth noting that when I’ve seen such an argument made, it’s been by someone whose invented character is the purple-eyed, six foot tall, judo black belt, loved-by-all, Jade-Emerald Starcruiser i.e. that were their character in an original work we’d still identify it as a Mary-Sue and its writer as immature.
Lee Goldberg: Now explain to me the reasons for distributing it and why fanficcers are so vehemently opposed to seeking permission from the author/right’s holder first.
To answer the second question first: I’m not opposed to asking permission, and I write fanfiction only in universes where the original creators appear supportive, at the very least disinterested, or are dead.
To the first question, fanfiction can be seen (and I would argue is best seen) as part of an ongoing discussion with other fans of a show. It’s the next logical step from the ‘what’s going to happen next?’ or ‘what would have happened if…?’ discussions about shows, and ‘what do you think his backstory might be?’ discussions about characters that you get on blogs, or in the old days I hearken back to, in letter zines. (Letter zine or apa: discussions on paper, sent round to fans by snail mail. Usually quarterly.)
Seen from this angle, there ‘s no point in keeping fanfiction to yourself: a discussion requires other people. Which is why, in my opinion, the person Claire commented upon who creates her insipid Mary-Sue and then insists only she uses it (as if anyone else would wish to!) has utterly and completely missed the point of writing fan fiction in the first place.
You might say, well, why not stick with conventional literary criticism? I would argue that it takes a certain type of mind to really enjoy literary criticism for its own sake. I have that kind of mind but I’m well aware that others just don’t and there’s no earthly reason why they should have. You might just as well argue that the writers of “Wide Sargasso Sea” or “Rozencranz and Gildenstern are Dead” had stuck to literary criticism – and this is why when this discussion rages on your blog, these kinds of professionally published but still derivative works are raised time and time again.
Not everyone is Tom Stoppard, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a view to express and that doesn’t mean that that view isn’t valid to some degree. To paraphrase Wilde: the measure of any work of fiction, even fan fiction, isn’t whether it’s moral or immoral (in content or the fact that it’s produced at all) but whether it’s well or badly written.
Hi Lee,
Nothing you said was incorrect, but I was still upset by your post because I write SeaQuest fanfiction and feel from this post that you almost.. dislike people like me.
“That’s the big difference between me and a fanficcer.”
That is absolutely correct. It’s your living. It’s our hobby.
“It would never even occur to me *because the characters aren’t mine.*”
I believe it would never occur to you because you make a living from writing, as a professional. Absolutely no one goes home to relax by doing exactly what they did at work.
“Ultimately, however, what motivates me as a writer is to express *myself*…not the work of someone else.”
I express myself too. If I’m writing about SeaQuest, its *through* the *ideas* of someone else.
“Now explain to me the reasons for distributing it and why fanficcers are so vehemently opposed to seeking permission from the author/right’s holder first.”
I don’t know anyone opposed to seeking permission. But I’ll tell you why I have never sought permission.
1.) I don’t KNOW where to go to seek permission! I’m a SeaQuest fanfiction writer. Who, how and where do I go to seek permission? Do I need permission for each individual story or can I just get a general permission?
2.) Because no one knows where to go to seek permission, and my fandom has been around for over ten years now without having the creators withdrawing permission or even requesting that fanfic writers do seek permission, it seems to me that we have implied permission. That’s how I believe the law would see it too.
3.) I do not make money from it
4.) I am not affecting the profits of the owner’s in any way.
5.) For those two reasons, I’m not contravening the law.
“What I don’t understand are any of the rationalizations for “publishing” it and doing so without getting the author’s permisison first.”
I have a website where I put up my fanfiction for other people to see – but I would hardly say that I have “published” writing. I consider a publication to be something that has been published by someone else.
“If what you’re looking for is feedback on your writing, you can get plenty of that by posting original stories on the net or joining a writing group.”
Original stories are actually a lot more difficult than fanfiction. In fanfiction, you don’t need to worry about character development. I write fanfiction when I’m feeling lazy, and I go back to my original stories when I’m feeling more motivated. I consider that my SeaQuest fanfiction community is a writing group.
Sharing is a way drawing out issues, discuss the show, and share your obsession with that universe.
“It’s when you publish that story, distributing it to others on the Internet, or in a fanzine, that you cross an important line.”
A moral line, or a legal line?
A legal line?
It is not feasible to have every fan contact the author for permission to write about a TV show. Because of this, implied permission amounts as a natural occurrence. This, and the fact that there is no damage or loss means that writing fanfiction could never be a legal wrong. Not under the law as it stands.
A moral line?
Why do we seek permission from other authors for using their characters and not the original creators for using their characters? Because fellow fans are RIGHT THERE. They have EMAIL ADDRESSES and CONTACT NUMBERS.
If a creator did withdraw permission, or did refuse permission in the event that they were able to be contacted by random fans, the proper thing to do would be to abstain from writing in that fandom publicly without profit.
But that is the only circumstance where writing publicly without profit could be correctly regard as “crossing any lines”.
Of course you can’t understand how paid writers can switch their creativity on and off. Of course it’s “alien” to you. That’s the difference between real writers who have discipline, professional attitudes, and goals – and fanficcers, who will write something when the thought occurs to them.
Writing a fanfic short story is completely different to writing an actual book that people will want to buy. How many fanfic stories would sustain a whole novel, or movie script, or television episode? How many of them have a proper structure, story arcs, satisfying endings? It’s all very well doing a 4 page story about having sex with Frodo or saving the Enterprise and getting promoted to Captain, but would it make a compelling book/movie/tv show? No, it wouldn’t. You’d get to page 22, if that, and wonder how to fill out the rest of it. Even if you managed the full page count, chances are it’d be shitty. Nobody would want to read your poorly written book, or see your crappily constructed movie with no decent ending.
Movies, books and tv shows are not created by someone asking a writer to “hey, just take your time, as long as you like, and when you come up with something, just let me know”. You get 8 to 12 weeks for a first draft of a movie script, and it better be fucking good, or you will be off the project pretty damn quick. You need to be able to turn it on and off like a switch. You need the creativity and inspiration too, but you need to have discpline. It also needs to be good – and let’s face it, no fanfic is ever going to win any awards for good writing. It’s badly written wank, and the best example is still worse than the worst example of professional writing. Don’t even try the “but it’s better written because we’re more passionate” argument, that doesn’t wash. I’m passionate about Angelina Jolie, more than anyone I know, but it doesn’t mean she’s going to fuck me. The Emily Dickinson or Wide Sargasso Sea line doesn’t work either, unless you’re turning out stuff of the same quality – which I seriously doubt.
It’s the difference between a comedian who can do 2 hours of hilarious material every single night, rain or shine, in sickness and in health, even if they’ve been bereaved – and the guy who gets up at a wedding and tells a few jokes. One is a comedian. The other is not.
Write all the fanfic you want. Just don’t ever suggest that you’re the same as the hard working people who create the fucking things that you love so much. Cause baby, you ain’t.
The form of this argument looks like:
A: Fanfic is bad. Fanfic is bad because [universally applicable principle].
B: [Universally applicable principle] also applies to [universally admired work]. Are you saying [Universally admired work] is bad?
A: [Universally admired work] isn’t fanfic, you dummy!
Nobody said Wide Sargasso Sea, or The Seven-Percent Solution, or Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are fanfic. They are, however, examples of admired work that is based on another writer’s characters. If you say that all work based on existing characters is bad, you must also denounce these books. Contrariwise, you can admit that “Work based on other people’s characters is bad” is not, in fact, a universal rule, but is a post-facto rationalization.
On real vs. unreal writers:
Most fanfic sucks. I’ll say that straight off; most of it is terrible. Percentage-wise, is it more or less terrible than the run of stuff that shows up in the slushpile? I don’t know. I’ve never read a slushpile, nor do I aspire to. Most amateur writers’ stuff is terrible.
Is all fanfic terrible? No. Here’s a sonnet redouble sequence about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Call it a waste of effort, call it a copyright violation, but don’t tell me it’s technically anything other than ambitious and competently realized.
So, why publish it? Because it’s a social hobby. People who recreate movie costumes want their friends to admire their workmanship. People who knit, for pity’s sake, publish patterns and pictures on the web. And people who write fanfic show their fanfic to other people who are interested in it.
It is also possibly worth noting that when I’ve seen such an argument made, it’s been by someone whose invented character is the purple-eyed, six foot tall, judo black belt, loved-by-all, Jade-Emerald Starcruiser i.e. that were their character in an original work we’d still identify it as a Mary-Sue and its writer as immature.
When I saw those particular arguments made it was by award-winning BNF’s. And made repeatedly, I might add. Over several years. Interesting as hell to watch. They’re the only ones with chutzpah enough to say stuff like that a get away with it! I want tell you the author’s ages except – older than me. And that’s pretty damned old.
Apparently Claire does. She seems to think fanfic is like Mar-i-ju-wanna…you start up puffing a bit and writing innocent stories about Dr. Sloan meeting some nice middle-aged Angela Lansbury type and the next thing you know you’re stark crazy, locked in the bathroom, penning cramped prose about Dr. Sloan and that young fella on the show.
Sorry, Elaine, missed it. This isn’t my blog, nor my platform, so I don’t go into the intricacies I’ve my position on it. I try to stick to the subject at hand. Usually, I’m unsuccessful.
The weakening of rights for artists is one concern of mine, the other is the prevalance and acceptance of the kiddie porn. As a hobby, when it doesn’t encourage young people to write the nasty fic, leave it where the kids can find it and it doesn’t overstep itself over what it is, I mostly don’t care. The community does not police itself, although it does lots of handwaving and screaming that it does. Anyway, that’s as far as I’ll go on the topic here.
Your all really stupid and bad writers and fanfic writers RULES!!!
We will crush you all with our brains and our pens and you will wither and die because fanfic writers (THAT’S US!) rule!!!
Your all stupid and should go away right now.
Your all really stupid and bad writers and fanfic writers RULES!!!
We will crush you all with our brains and our pens and you will wither and die because fanfic writers (THAT’S US!) rule!!!
Your all stupid and should go away right now.
There ya go, folks, a published author who admits to writing fanfic!
Hiya, George! When I get back to DC in August, we ought to meet for lunch!
“Mr. Pelecano”‘s comment is clearly a fake. If the person who left that comment is an actual author, he must have (and need) one hell of a copy editor. “fanfic writers RULES!!” His/her grammars don’t.
ANYWAY… My main point just sailed over so many of your heads. *You have differing points of view, both of which have valid points. You’re not going to change each other’s minds.*
That’s fine…keep the work to yourself. What is the justification for posting/publishing your fanfic? And why do so without the permission of the “original creator?”
I seriously doubt anyone who’s a rabid fanfic writer will ever admit that it’s not a matter of opinion because accepting that the work they’re basing their writing on belongs to someone else would result in their having to stop using that world and characters unless they get permission. So, they come up with rationalizations that allow them to be the exception to the law, including interpreting the law in a way that makes it appear to support their position. And that’s where I draw the line. You don’t get to steal someone else’s work just because you like it. You can wait until it comes into public domain or go play in public domain worlds. And if it doesn’t come into public domain before you die, too bad. You don’t always get what you want in this world, so, to quote a favorite song title, “Get Over It.”
I never said tie-in works are “creations of golden genius.” What I am saying is one of the key differences between tie-ins and fanfic is the active consent/involvement/permission of the author/creator/rights holder. Money has nothing to do with it. Permission does. Why won’t you seek permission before publishing your fanfic?
That’s your rationalization for not seeking permission? It doesn’t make sense. You can discuss a show all you want, and all the possible things that might happen to the characters, without publishing fanfic to do it. Admit it — the reason fanficcers don’t ask for permission as
a) they don’t give a damn what the author wants (as the guest on OPEN SOURCE stated)
b) they are terrified the author will say no.
To the SEAQUEST fanfic writer…
You want to obtain permission, contact Cindy Chang at Universal Studios in L.A. She deals with all the literary licensing issues involving their shows and movies.
The argument that you haven’t been told to stop, therefore you have “implied consent” is ridiculous. It’s not up to the author to find you, it’s up to YOU to contact the author. That’s like saying that someone who bootlegs a movie and offers it on the Internet for free has “implied consent” of the author unless he’s sued or arrested.
Bottom line:
a) Fanficcers don’t want to ask for permission.
b) Fanficcers will use any excuse or rationalization to avoid seeking permission because
c) Fanficcers are terrified the authors will say no…and that they might take action against them if they post/publish their fanfic anyway.
At least the fanficcer guest on OPEN SOURCE was honest about it….she stated that fanficcers don’t care about the authors/creators at all.
“It is not feasible to have every fan contact the author for permission to write about a TV show. Because of this, implied permission amounts as a natural occurrence. This, and the fact that there is no damage or loss means that writing fanfiction could never be a legal wrong. Not under the law as it stands.”
Did you not read the Copyright Law excerpt I posted? The law as it stands states rather clearly that fan fiction is a violation of copyright. Only those who hold the copyright can create works based on it. Period. They have the RIGHT by law. No one else does.
Try this page then: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html. Brad Templeton does a rather complete job of setting things straight. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.
Just because you can’t get permission (for whatever reason, laziness or lack of resources) does not make it right to do it. Looking here: http://www.copyright.gov/records/ will get you information about the rights holder (try registration #s TX-4-042-964 or PAu-2-091-655). The “I’m not making any money” argument does not fly either. It’s still violating someone else’s rights unless the original work is in the public domain OR the holder of those rights has explicitly stated their approval. Just becasue they have not gotten around to sending out lawsuits does not mean they can’t or won’t.
If your “hobby” is so important that you can’t see the legal and/or moral implications of it… then there is nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. Why do we bother? I’m posting what facts I know, and trying to get the truth across. All the entitlement in the world won’t change the facts of legal (and/or moral) obligation.
What is the justification for posting/publishing your fanfic? And why do so without the permission of the “original creator?”
We post it so other fans can enjoy it–we hope. Many do.
As per your second question, ’tis a simple answer:
Because we can.
Did you not read the Copyright Law excerpt I posted? The law as it stands states rather clearly that fan fiction is a violation of copyright. Only those who hold the copyright can create works based on it. Period. They have the RIGHT by law. No one else does.
You’re wrong, Jason. Otherwise parody would be illegal, and it’s not. Fair use doctrine was created to give people the right to discuss/criticise/adapt/mock/translate copyrighted work without penalty.
The fact that fanfiction is a noncommercial use of already-published material leans heavily in the favor of fair use. I’m not saying this is airtight–neither the courts nor the legislatures have decided either way, and until they do, it’s up for debate.
But it’s not nearly so clear-cut a violation of the law as you think it is.
If a creator did withdraw permission, or did refuse permission in the event that they were able to be contacted by random fans, the proper thing to do would be to abstain from writing in that fandom publicly without profit.
Hi Teresa, please don’t tell anybody I’m here. I’m supposed to be working on real work today and I’m so going to get in trouble and sent to bed without my supper or something.
Realizing HP may not be your fandom and understanding you may not write the type of fic I’m talking about…
JKR has stated clearly that she thinks fanfiction is wonderfully creative, likes it, whatever. And that’s fine. Her universe, her business. However, she also states, through her representative that HP is a children’s series. Further she states that she DOES NOT want anybody writing pornographic fanfiction about it. She worries a kid might stumble across it and rightfully so.
Does that fall under your definition above? Do you think other fanwriters have an obligation to help enforce it, if for no other reason then because the they may lose the whole enchilada because JKR’s ‘fans’ ignore her wishes? And the reason I’m enclosing fans in quotes is because I don’t know how somebody can call themselves a fan of an artist and ignore their express wishes regarding a topic like this.
I’m really interested in your comments and I’ve no plans to get into an argument with you. Just I found your comment thought-provoking. Thanks in advance. If I don’t answer, it’s not a reflection on what you said, just means I truly appreciate your honesty.
But Fan Fiction is not parody. It’s a derivative work. Parody is legal. Continuing soemone else’s story is not. You are taking an overly broad view of fair use.
From the Copyright website at: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch
(You may wish to read the whole page)
“How much of someone else’s work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.
How much do I have to change in order to claim copyright in someone else’s work?
Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another’s work, no matter how much you change it, unless you have the owner’s consent. See Circular 14, Copyright Registration for Derivative Works. ”
Seems rather clear to me. Writing your own story using someone else’s characters or settings does not fall under “commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports”.
Let’s just file this under “agree to disagee”. The laws are there and they take the time to spell it out for you. Takes me no time at all to find it and understand it.
First off, to the gentleman that so kindly placed words in my mouth that I did not say, I did not say that my passion made me superior to anyone. I said that it made me different. Neither opinion is superior to the other; they are simply different.
Yes, I lack certain traits that professional writers have. I’m well aware that professionals have deadlines to meet. The concept of working under pressure isn’t alien to me. Neither is discipline.
I’ll be frank. I have no desire to write for the sole purpose of acquiring a paycheck. I write because I love it, because I have thousands of stories in my head waiting to be told. I write because I would be miserable if I didn’t, not because I want to make a profit from it. As I said, money is simply a fringe benefit of engaging in something I genuinely enjoy.
My reason for writing apparently differs from Mr. Goldberg’s. He chooses to write for a paycheck. Though I would not choose that path for myself, I respect it. If it’s a path that brings him happiness and satisfaction, then it is obviously one well chosen for someone with his ideals.
And to Mr. Goldberg:
I post it because I like feedback. I get a thrill when someone decides to check out the original because of something I’ve written. I feel like I’ve done a service.
I also get something invaluable out of it – an objective opinion from a complete stranger. When I show pieces to friends and family, I’m usually told what they think I want to hear rather than the truth. With strangers, I don’t have to worry about their opinion of me as a person coloring their perceptions.
Before someone had mentioned submitting original fiction to online archives or writers’ groups. I refuse to do that because I worry that someone will steal my work while it is unprotected and pass it off as their own. With fanfiction, I don’t have to worry because it’s not mine. I may have wrote the piece but the concepts, characters, events, etc, used in the original storyline aren’t mine. Any ideas that I incorporated into the canon now belong to the creator. People can focus on the writing techniques themselves.
As for permission, I write for things that are so obscure that they haven’t been licensed in an English speaking country. Unfortunately, I cannot write or speak Japanese. If I were able to get past this language barrier, I would ask for permission first. Besides, the copyright laws in the land of the original differ from ours and support fanwork.
You have managed to convince me of the importance of asking for permission first and as a result, I’ve taken down the few pieces derived from licensed works that I did have available online. I won’t post them again until I have acquired permission to do so.
There are always exceptions to the majority. It doesn’t matter whether you believe all fanfic writers are immoral heathens or that they’re all nice people paying tribute to something they love. Not everyone fits into a generalization and it would be wise to remember that.
At least, you have now met at least one fan that genuinely cares about the creator.
I have only one thing to say in response: No.
I am a professional author with a novel trilogy that has sold and is now going into a second print run. I should think that speaks for itself.
I also write fan fiction.
*Gasp*!
Golly, I guess that means I can’t write, but for some reason I also get paid to write.
Don’t over-generalise or assume anything about people you don’t know. And let’s face one fact; if you alienate your fans you won’t have any. We all have to face that and you’re no exception.
If that isn’t simple enough for you, then please, get off your high horse and quit making the rest of us professional writers who happen to enjoy the talent of their fans look like pompous jerks.
Because that is what you just made yourself look like.
Jocelyn opined:
You’re wrong, Jason. Otherwise parody would be illegal, and it’s not. Fair use doctrine was created to give people the right to discuss/criticise/adapt/mock/translate copyrighted work without penalty.
Nice try, but no such luck. Fanfic is not “parody” as the law defines the term. Unfortunately, the legal definition of “parody” is not all that close to the literary definition (in fact, in US law “parody” and “satire” come awfully close to inverting their relationship in literary terms). This argument falls of its own weight.
Jocelyn further opined:
The fact that fanfiction is a noncommercial use of already-published material leans heavily in the favor of fair use. I’m not saying this is airtight–neither the courts nor the legislatures have decided either way, and until they do, it’s up for debate.
Not even close. “Noncommercial use of already-published material” is one partial analysis of one of the four fair-use factors. It does not, and cannot, weigh “heavily in the favor of fair use.” And, contrary to the next statement, courts and legislatures have “decided” on this; just do a search on “robert e. howard” and see what comes up, for starters, and that’s just an obvious set of decisions.
There are four factors for fair use (17 U.S.C. § 107):
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
Note that the first factor says “including,” not “that is;” and that the dichotomy isn’t “commercial” and “noncommercial,” but “commercial” and “nonprofit educational.” Anybody care to argue, with a straight face, that fan fiction represents a “nonprofit educational” use as that term is defined in law? Good.
Finally, one last point to pull all of this together. Most people misunderstand 2Live Crew (the Supreme Court’s most recent decision on “parody”… and one brownie point for the individual who can name the other one). Justice Souter did not hold that “parody is fair use,” in reversing the Sixth Circuit’s opinion that “parody can never be fair use.” Instead, he held that parody might be fair use, that no one factor in § 107 outweighs any other, and that the individual circumstances of the individual case must determine whether a parody defense exists. The irony that all of this matters only if we put on our “all authors ever need worry about is copyright” blinders; analysis of characters (and, for that matter, settings, such as a B5 story not involving any of the canonical characters) is more sound under trademark theory. But that’s a much longer argument… about 15,000 words longer.
Kristan hardly qualifies as a “professional writer.” She’s SELF-PUBLISHED (gee, was it hard selling that book to yourself????) Here’s the info on her “publisher:”>
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NO WONDER SHE WRITES FANFIC!!!
Whoa! from http://www.catseyepublishing.net, their submissions policy:
“All submissions become the property of Cat’s Eye Publishing. Please don’t send us your only copy if you mail it to us.”
Um…I’m going to go out on a limb and figure Kristan is kinda new at this and doesn’t realize what she has in that policy, but anybody who’s thinking of submitting read that above paragraph again and refrain.
I was first published by Random House. That a big enough name for you?
They are fans.
They support these shows to the height of insanity at times, but without them a show has nothing.
Bite the hands the feeds me is quite right for this stituation.
But, to be fair.
I may not agree to all of his point, but I sure as Hell agree to some of it. To be downright specific I have a problem w3th the fact that he thinks that we haven’t tried to contact the original copyright holders or that we don’t care.
Trust me, I have. Universal will not talk to anyone off the street. The whole reason I opened the company was because I have an idea, that will sell, for seaQuest and wanted that permission. Now, however, I find that the actual power to give said permission is… well… in a strange little fuzzy grey area. The US Copyright office has three dozen different registered owners, some Universal, some not. You see the problem here?
I will not write just anything and for anything either. I research to get a feel for what the original writers/producers wanted for the show.
So, obviously, my problem with this is that Mr. Goldberg automatically assumed that *all* fan fiction writers were alike.
What we agree on is definately ownership. I, for one, don’t want ownership of anything other than what I create. If I publish, all I want is your permission. But the copy of what you sent is now my company’s copy. Otherwise, what am I supposed to publish? Air?
So it goes with my few fandoms. I don’t want the copyright changed to my name, thank you very much. I have enough of my own to worry about.
My problems with some fan fiction is that there are fan fiction tales out there that the author needs to go back to school and re-learn how to write, as well as picking a better storyline and how to develop it. It is these stories and authors that shouldn’t even be writing, let alone fan fiction.
But, as I can see all anyone wants here is a flamewar, this is going to be my last post. No one needs “You suck” comments from people who are simply looking for a fight.
Not even Lee Goldberg.
Help! I’m confused! I wrote a tie-in novel. The BBC gave me a contract for it, including lovely long paragraphs on how they retain the copyright to things like “the Doctor”, “TARDIS” etc and that any original characters in my work would be copyrighted to me although the BBC would retain the option to reuse them within the Doctor Who range without seeking additional permissions. I ‘switched it on’, wrote the novel to deadline, collected my advance and blew it on a holiday, read some positive reviews, shrugged over some negative ones, and ‘switched it back off’. So far, this conforms with Lee’s reasons for seperating tie-in from fanfic. There’s just one teensy flaw…
I really, really wanted to write a Doctor Who novel because I wanted to play in a shared universe that I am a fan of. Doctor Who is a slightly different beast to most, since it lacks a single ‘visionary’ creator (no Rodenberry, no Whedon, no whoever-it-was-that-created-Ally-McBeal) and thus no single authorial intent. This means graduating from ‘fan writer’ to ‘authorised writer’ is something which has been going on from 1980 onwards. Almost all the Doctor Who tie-in authors are fans, many have better-paid professional writing jobs as well. All of the writers of the current series wrote tie-ins and/or fanfic in the last decade. Every one of us approaches the work professionally – we flip the switch – yet we do it because we love it. We sure as hell don’t do it for the money because the money sucks.
It would be lovely to erect an iron curtain to seperate fanfic from tie-in, just so that poor old tie-in novelists don’t have to continue defending themselves against the “well, it’s just fanfic” barb which is a tedious and vacuous criticism. Unfortunately, for those trying to hang the curtain, I think it’ll always be made of flimsy silk and it would make more sense to accept that both sides can see the other…
I just read some of Kristan’s Star Wars fan fiction and it is no wonder she’s now a publisher instead of a writer.
http://www.qui-gonline.org/fanfic/kristannecessary.htm
You know, anonymous and qui-gon, when someone chooses to ignore all the actual points brought up by another party, and chooses instead to attack that party on a personal level, it just goes to show that they can’t actually argue their points at all.
Kristan’s writing is not the topic of discussion here. Grow up and move on.
Mags has a great point.
A friend of mine, a professionally published author both in mysteries and in SF, wrote Buffy fanfic for her own pleasure. When she heard that a paid anthology had opened up, she had her agent submit a short story. The publisher couldn’t use the short story, but did request that she write a Buffy novel for them as work-for-hire.
Query: Is my friend a real writer? If so, did she temporarily become unreal during the period when she was writing the short story? And what happened to her reality status when she declined the tie-in contract?
The devil’s in the details, Kristan. Random House is plenty big for me, but your submissions criteria is one of the odder ones I’ve read. Nothing about shredding if an SASE isn’t included to return the materials. You say the submissions belong to you, not that particular copy. You mention nothing about remunerations, splits, who owns what rights, what rights you claim if you publish, how soon you try to get back with answers on submissions, beyond the acknowledgement. You have a very small inventory of offerings, members of your staff. Fine, everybody starts somewhere. It’s epublishing, which is different from paper publishing. You don’t mention, that I can find, what work of yours was published by Random House or that it was published by Random House, maybe I missed that somewhere.
Anyway, good luck with your business. Just from the standpoint of the author, it’s an odd-looking setup.
This really IS a cult.
This really IS a cult.
You can argue it every which way you like, but let’s face it: unless you are published, unless a company is willing to spend money on you and on marketing your book, and people are willing to buy and read that book, you’re not a proper writer. You can moan and wail all you want, but my heart is made of stone on this issue. So some proper writers dabble in fanfic? Good for them. Do they earn their living from it? No. Tie ins are not fanfic, the authors are hired to write them because they are professionals, not because they’ve watched every episode 100 times and really, like, *understand* the true motivation of the characters. It doesn’t matter if you really, really want to do it – all that matters is if you can do the job, and do it well.
And please stop implying that earning money from writing is somehow distasteful and cheap. Should writers support themselves by working in gas stations and just give away their writing, so that their works of art can be unfettered by fiscal concerns? Give me a break. This wounded artiste schtick is really irritating.
What’s a cult, Mark? Fandom?
I can’t find Kristan’s book at Amazon and google is only turning up her fanfic. She may have published under a pseudonym, so that doesn’t mean anything, but normally the pseudonym thing is done the other way around.
Also, queries are sent to General Delivery to her town in Canada. There’s a live journal community, but it doesn’t offer a lot more info. She says e-book, not pdf files…doesn’t specify if that code thing is required or not, doesn’t explain anything about what e-book, e-publishing is.
Anyway, interesting, puzzling site.
For the record, I’m not all that happy about my site either. But the tech that made it no longer works for me and I have no idea how to use the program that he made it in.
There is a new site in the works, but it looks cruddy given my knowledge of HTML lies in how to make a basic page, not handle an entire site. That and I just don’t have the time to really work on learning Dreamweaver.
I don’t agree with Lee Goldberg’s views on fanfiction but I really respect the man. He’s not afraid to take an unpopular stand and then he opens the doors of his house and let’s everybody in, regardless of their point of view, even people who show up just to trash him. That’s a really great thing. How many of us would do the same thing (I wouldn’t which is obvious by the fact I won’t even use my real name here because I have friends who would banish me for saying something nice about him). I think that says something about the kind of person he is. I don’t think we should let that get lost in the debate.
Claire, why do you may this so personal and unpleasant?
Lee at least agrues on the subject and does not try to attack and vilify like the way you do Kristen.
This is a debate– present your facts, do not namecall and attack other people so viciously.
You act more posionious than the fans you decry.
Rock The Mic Like A Vandal…And Fan Fiction!
Y’all will be happy to know that my great love affair with Britney Spears’ reality show has ended. When I found myself saying things like, well, y’all and knowwhati’msaying, and then quoting Kevin Federline as if he were Deepak Chopra
Rock The Mic Like A Vandal…And Fan Fiction!
Y’all will be happy to know that my great love affair with Britney Spears’ reality show has ended. When I found myself saying things like, well, y’all and knowwhati’msaying, and then quoting Kevin Federline as if he were Deepak Chopra
Yeah, this quagmire looks like fun
Lee Goldberg is the center of all things fanfic at the moment. He’s virulently anti-fanfic; several posters to his blog on this entry and this entry and this entry and a few others besides (these are just the posts in…
Hi Claire,
Your secret is safe with me.
Regarding JKR and Harry Potter kiddy porn – I would never be interested in writing about it because it’s really not my thing.
But if I had (because everyone else was and I thought it was okay or something), and I became aware that she had requested people not to, I’d take it off where ever I had posted it, and tell other fans to email me if they wished to read it and I’d send them what I had written by private email. I’d also make an attempt to be constructively helpful (unlike certain people who just love to hate fanfiction), and tell my fellow HPporn writers of her wishes.
But I mean, I’m at a loss to understand how any arguments on the “fanfic debate” (Lmao) relate to my fanfiction, and how an attack on one of things I do in my personal spare time is warrented by people who shouldn’t even care.
Claire, why do you may this so personal and unpleasant?
Lee at least agrues on the subject and does not try to attack and vilify like the way you do Kristen.
This is a debate– present your facts, do not namecall and attack other people so viciously.
You act more posionious than the fans you decry.
Rianax? Do you mean Kristan Cannon? I wasn’t trying to attack her. Truly. I didn’t check her link until somebody else mentioned she was self-published. What I presented is facts and straight off her site.
I was curious when I checked out her site, but the stuff about submissions being her property is damned weird. I can’t find her at Amazon and a google on her only brings up the fanfic. In other words, it doesn’t add up, but there are likely plenty of reasons why they don’t. I suggested to her that to an author, her site and the lack of standard language of any sort, is odd. In fact, I can’t even figure out how to order a book from her site, there are no links that I can figure out.
Another author may disagree, but, if she’s not happy with the site, she’d be wise to redo it and maybe get some legal advice about how to word things. Because sending a manuscript to General Delivery at a net address which is also registered to General Delivery with no real indication of what happens to the manuscript and tacit agreement that Kristan owns the work once its sent in is…
highly trusting.
Did you not read the Copyright Law excerpt I posted? The law as it stands states rather clearly that fan fiction is a violation of copyright. Only those who hold the copyright can create works based on it. Period. They have the RIGHT by law. No one else does.
I’m sorry, Jason. I actually studied Copyright Law at University. I don’t need to be “educated” by some guy on the internet who applies experts of the law incorrectly. Thanks anyway.
You and other people who believe fanfiction is a breach of copyright have already been correct again and again.
Believe what you want. But don’t talk about stuff you have no clue about, unless you want me to think you’re silly.. which I already do, so never mind 🙂
HI Theresa, thanks for the answer. It’s reassuring and appreciated. Lots of people say it, but I keep thinking if they did it, it wouldn’t be an issue. Then again, the people saying it, likely aren’t writing it anyway. Not your fandom anyway, if your email is any indication. Should have noted that before. Thanks again.
All right. I promised myself not to get involved in this entire argument from the beginning – it seems to be a volataile subject, and prone to namecalling on both sides. But, as one of my friends who is serious in debate came over and saw me reading, she insisted that she very much wanted to straighten the whole thing out, from an avidly curious standpoint.
To aid in bias determination, I can clearly say that my friend (Laura, for reference) is not a fanfiction writer and had not in fact heard of the phenomenon before she came over tonight. I, on the other hand, do write fanfiction – I am clearly going to argue my side once this is all over, but hopefully in a rational and polite manner.
By extension, it might be thought that Laura is going to be influenced by my opinion as she is personally connected to me. I’m afraid I have no refutation for this except to say that she is very good at what she does. This includes arguing vehemently for both sides of every debate she has ever been in.
I’ll post her comments first, which focus solely on the debate aspect. My comments will follow, which state my own point of view.
Her: The first rule of debate is clarification. No one will ever get anywhere without stating what they are trying to prove, and one cannot prove anything without defining clearly the terms they use. I shall attempt therefore to define each part to both sides’ contentment.
1) What is each side attempting to prove?
The side against fanfiction is trying to prove that it is both legally, morally, and creatively wrong. Legally, they cite copyright/trademark laws and infringements as well as the wishes of the original authors. Morally, they claim a “graffiti” argument in which the fanwriters tarnish work and insult it. Creatively, they say that the writers have no “soul” (a badly defined term – please specify) and are not “real” (another badly defined term – please specify).
The pro-fanfiction side is trying to prove that fanfiction is legally, morally, and creatively “acceptable” – therefore, not that it is expressly good or promoted, but defendable. Legally, they cite the lack of legal reprisal (on shaky ground, here). Morally, they cite certain authors’ express permission (applicable only in those specific cases) and a “lack of harm” added to a lack of malicious intent. Creatively, they claim that fanfiction requires some amount of work, effort, and applied thought – but not that it is equal to the work, effort, and thought put into paid work.
2) A few important definitions:
A “fanwriter” is declared to be: Any person that uses without permission another author’s characters, setting, plot, or other inherently understood intellectual property.
An “original writer” is declared to be: Any person that writes entirely original fiction, for publishing or not.
A “professional writer” is declared to be: Any person that writes for monetary compensation, under legal contract, with explicit authorial permission, if need be.
It must be noted that a person can simultaneously be any combination of the above. No quality of writing is assumed or inherent in any of the above positions – examples could be cited, but would be very subjective and a waste of space. If any disagree with this assumption, it may be discarded – but it will probably speed along the debate.
3) A lot of debate rules have gotten broken in the past discussion on both sides, therefore, they will be clarified here:
In a true debate, ad hominem arguments (such as namecalling or the calling into question of irrelevant credentials) constitute an admission of weakness in argument – i.e. the lack of any true response – and are considered highly rude (though that really doesn’t need to be said). In a civil debate, ad hominem arguments are HIGHLY frowned upon.
Ad antiquitatem is the assumption that because something has always been done a certain way, it is right. This has been briefly brushed upon, and is a touchy subject considering the legal constraints. Let it be said then that all US Laws are considered “right” at the moment, but subject to consideration in interpretation.
Ad logicam has been extensively used, and is usually associated with the “straw man” idea: it means that merely because an argument is wrong, it does not follow that the entire subject or its defenders are wrong.
Dicto simpliciter is probably the most important of all debate ettiquette in this instance. It is the use of sweeping generalizations, used by both parties. For clarification, this includes the use of the word “most” as well as “all” as “most” implies a majority. Unless there are facts to support, “most” is not to be used.
My. That took quite a bit out of me. I understand my input may not be welcome – in which case, this post may be ignored or deleted. But personally I feel a great deal of curiosity as to how this debate would turn out if framed properly. I would love to referee it.
For clarification, Courtney will add her own arguments in a separate post.
Here I go, then.
Firstly, I’ll make no secret of the fact that I write fanfiction and also that I find it enjoyable as a hobby and an outlet for creative urges. I’ve been writing for a very long time, both original and fanfiction. The original has never been publicly “published” (Laura wants to clarify that now: “put into novelized form or posted for open viewing on the internet”) but the fanfiction obviously has.
I write incredibly strange things sometimes (though never pornographic in any way) and I’ll readily admit my first work was purely horrific. But it has made me a better person and a better writer in my original fiction, which I give to trusted, critical friends to review before I send it off for professional critique.
To qualify me, you may have to say I am “fanwriter”, “original writer”, and semi-professional writer. I have had an article through the reviewing and rewriting stages and ready for publishing in a major magazine (“Dragon”, to be precise) though it never made the last cut.
My experience with fanfiction has drastically improved my writing skills from what they were – you may qualify this if you like by reading the first posted fiction on my account and then the last – if you care to. If you feel no need, you may have to take my word that the first was disgustingly unbearable and that the last is considered near-professional quality.
I have also met many good friends through fanfiction – people I would not normally have found. I realize this all means little in the scheme of establishing “right” or “wrong”, but it seems a very good experience overall. It certainly gave me a higher level of grammar and articulation, and I credit it solely responsible for a perfect Critical Reading SAT score.
To use this all in an argument, I will have to state: I feel I am a good writer. Perhaps not your definition of a “true writer”, as it hasn’t been amazingly defined, but a good writer nonetheless. I do not write porn. I do my best to stay true to the characters while writing them into the most improbable situations my mind can manage. Call it an exercise if you will.
I use this to refute the idea that all fanfiction writers are without creative talent. I know that I have talent – I’ve used it in many other endeavors. But fanfiction writing has been rewarding to me in more ways than one.
I won’t even attempt to dispute the legal problems – I have no expertise in the area. I’ll leave it to those qualified. The only thing I have to add in that area is that everything I have written for has been given some kind of permission. Harry Potter: Is highly encouraged as long as it is not pornographic. Inuyasha: Is highly encouraged in Japan, where it was created, by its creator (even pornography, which I don’t write). Full Metal Alchemist: Exactly the same as Inuyasha.
I realize that the idea of writing for animes probably disgusts the more literary minded here. In all honesty, I write for them because they lack in some areas that a written work could handle better than an animated one, and I feel that many profound possibilities for character development are ignored for the sake of story rate.
And, to lighten things up for anyone that actually bothered to go through all of this: did anyone see that the Mavericks won?
Yay.
Lee Goldberg: Why won’t you seek permission before publishing your fanfic?
Question already answered. In the post you quoted, I wrote, “I’m not opposed to asking permission, and I write fanfiction only in universes where the original creators appear supportive, at the very least disinterested, or are dead.
What is difficult to understand about this position and why do you not acknowledge its validity? It may not be what you would do, but you’re not me.
As has been explained to you multiple times over the last few months, in situations where fans have been told by the original creators that they do not want fanfiction written, most fan fiction writers will stop writing. Example: Anne Rice. Perhaps not all would, but then I’d like universal peace and the US to sign to Kyoto Protocol, which I’m also clearly not going to get in the short term.
JASON: “I just think it’s incredibly rude for me to say I know better than the creator (or his/her assigned staff, etc) what should happen to their property.”
Well it would be incredibly rude, but that’s not what I was getting at.
The main point of my post is that Goldberg is a paid fan fiction writer ranting about unpaid fan fiction writers. I feel that his is a hypocritical stance.
I gladly acknowledge that the creator of any work is the ultimate authority in what happens to a fandom, especially since without said creator, there would BE no fandom.
I’m still trying to understand how my post implied that I know better than the creator of a particular fandom what should happen to their work.
That wasn’t what I meant to imply.
This whole debate is really stupid.
Everyone here is too pigheaded to realize that yelling at each other like a bunch of crazed animals doesn’t do much for you cause.
Honestly, reading page after page of out-of-context legal crap and ludicrous analogies have made me realize that I really, really, really want Lee Goldberg and fanfic writers to stay away from the Internet until they get anger management lessons.
And another thing–
Oh, wait sorry, my ride is here. I have to go to my therapy sessions. I’ll be back in a decade!
JAMES: “Everyone here is too pigheaded to realize that yelling at each other like a bunch of crazed animals doesn’t do much for you cause.”
Well, some people have the tendancy to create long posts and even longer replies, but I have yet to see anything that would suggest everyone here is behaving “like a bunch of crazed animals”.
Have fun at therapy!
hi!i read your article its good,but can you plz tell me the difference of writing between old writers and todays writers