For some reason, I've received lots of emails lately asking about Tate Publishing. Here's one:
My daughter (14 years old) recently submitted (through her school) a children’s book that she wrote. Surprisingly, she received a contract to publish her book from Tate Publishing. However, they are asking us to invest almost $4,000. I am simply trying to determine if Tate is a vanity publisher, POD publisher, or what? I want to support my daughter, but I want to be educated first. I cannot find much on the internet about Tate Publishing. Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
I can't imagine why any school or responsible teacher would submit student work to a vanity press, but that issue aside, here's what I told her (which will be familiar to any of you who read this blog on a regular basis): Legitimate publishers pay YOU, not the other way around. Any publisher that asks you for money in return for "publishing" your book is a vanity press. If you are intent on publishing your daughter's work in book form yourself, go to Lulu, you won't have to pay a penny out-0f-pocket, or you can create an ebook edition for the Kindle and sell it on Amazon absolutely free.
Here's another email I received about Tate:
What can you tell me about Tate Publishing Co? Unfortunately, I have already invested almost $ 8,000 in 2 books, both of which are now published. I visited their offices twice, met the staff and felt they were legit Christian organization.
I don't know what being Christian has to do with anything. What makes him think that a Christian won't rip him off? I guess he 's unfamiliar with most TV evangelists and their "send me your cash" brand of faith and spirituality. But that's a different issue.
As far as Tate goes, I told him basically the same thing I told the other person: Tate is a vanity press. They make their money selling books to desperate, naive, and gullible authors, not to readers. You can self-publish your book, for now cash out-of-pocket, elsewhere. But if you are intent on throwing your money away, I'm sure you can find some Christians at another, far less predatory, vanity press who will print your manuscript in book form for much, much less money.
Updated 2/10/2010
UPDATE 6/1/2012: Those lovely people at Tate are in the news again, this time for firing 25 employees and threatening others who dared to speak about the company's plans to outsource their sleazy vanity press operation to the Phillipines.
Tate Publishing President Ryan Tate said the company is opening an office in the Philippines, but denies there are any layoffs planned. He said the 25 workers who lost their jobs Thursday were terminated for breaching confidentiality agreements in their employment contracts after leaking rumors about the outsourcing.
[…]In a recording of an employee meeting held this week obtained from a Tate employee by The Journal Record, Ryan Tate threatened to sue staff members and file liens against their houses and cars if they violated their employee contracts by talking to the media or sharing information about the company on Facebook and Twitter.
In the recording, Ryan Tate said he would fire 25 production workers after no one came forward to take responsibility for the anonymous email sent out to employees on Sunday that decried the rumored layoffs.
“Good people are going to lose their jobs – it’s not fair,” Ryan Tate said in the recording. “It’s not right, but that’s the reality of the situation. Jesus himself is the perfect mix of mercy, grace and justice. I have probably failed you in that I have been a little too lenient and a little too on the side of mercy and grace and not on the side of justice.”
At the meeting, Ryan Tate then went on to say several employees had already been named as defendants in a $7.8 million lawsuit for breaching their employee confidentiality agreements. A search of state and federal court filings revealed that no such litigation has been filed as of Thursday, a fact Ryan Tate later confirmed.
I can personally verify that Tate Publishing is nothing but a scam. I had the unfortunate experience of visiting their office in Mustang, OK last June. I turned down their offer after I endured their “boiler room” sales tactics for about an hour and a half. They used lines like “in order to keep you locked in at our $4K processing fee, we need you to sign today.” The fee is increasing next month blah blah blah etc. ect. The real unfortunate part of the whole deal was a wasted plane ticket to visit that dump.
All the questions you have received
about their honorability, seem like good questions. However no one has done any business with them, of the chosen people, you indicated here. One party bought a plane ticket and spent a hour and half with them. Why do this, buy a plane ticket, visit. I heard nothing about a bona fide book that he wrote, or that any thing written was acceptable by any Publisher. No one has tried them, to do a thing for them, and I hear all of these unfounded, statements. There are no big time publishers anywhere going to take a no-name, off the street to endorse them, and put up a ton a money, on someone they do not know.
I`m neither defending, Tate, or against them. Also most manuscripts written are not accepted, which means most work is not acceptable, or workable for the publisher. I`m a lay person, reading this article. I take offense to anyone claiming scam, if they have no bonafide info on the organization. Whater anyone`s crede , should have nothing to do with it. Being a Christian Organization, does not constitute, any wrong doing, or a red flag to go up. I`m defending no one here. Just questioning the accuracy of all involved by the statements here. I`ve heard pro & cons, on publishers, for I read on the puter, that Publish America, is a stay away from organization, and they don`t really even charge you to get something published. I understand no one gets anything published of novice form, only 2% perhaps. Which is none. So most publishing companys, do charge to do a book. How good each one is I do not know. I just wrote a book, and I`m trusting an organization, and it is costing me. To this point, I have no problem. I also know the cheapest is usually the most expensive. So everyone pays, and these novices , need to understand that. I`m not a publisher. I`m a lay person, looking for information. Thanks, Paul Knecht
Author: Leon Mentzer
I’m a Tate Publishing author.
“JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU’RE ALL ALONE”
“A collection of five wonderful stories for the whole family”
BY: LEON MENTZER
Voted “Best New Christian Writer 2005”
by http://www.christianstoryteller.com.
Named one of the
“Top 100 Inspirational Writers”
in the nation by Writer’s Digest 74th Annual Writing Competition.
Tate is unique in the publishing world. The author retains complete rights to their book and they do charge a fee. There’re no other fees added. No marketing fees, no PR fees.
This would fit one of the definitions of a subsidy publisher. However, in the legal world, Tate Publishing is referred to as a partnership publisher because they do invest their money in the author’s book as well as the author. This is called “A meeting of the minds”.
This investment, in my case, was over three times the amount of the author’s fee.
Tate Publishing has paid for my book’s advertisement in the February 2005 issue of Christian Review, the “Top 100 best Sellers” page and in LifeWay Christian Resource’s June 2005 catalog for release to all their 124 stores nationwide and over 700,000 listed customers. Christian Review quoted me over $9,000 for the ad Tate placed and LifeWay quoted $3,400.
My book was picked up by Lifeway Christian Stores with an initial purchase of 1,200 books.
Tate is a traditional royalty publisher also. They pay royalties every quarter. 15% from book store sales, 40% from web sales. If an author has or is part of a web site and uses PayPal to sell their books then the return is 60%.
Tate Publishing uses Spring Arbor as one of their distributors. They are a leading distributor of Christian books.
My book is listed by Faithworks on their top 50 best sellers listed at # 41 http://www.faithworksonline.com/docs/50_bestsellers.pdf
My book sells very well overseas. Here’s one of the web sites
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/booksea.cgi?KEYWORD=%6A%75%73%74+%77%68%65%6E+%79%6F%75+%74%68%69%6E%6B+%79%6F%75+%61%72%65+%61%6C%6C+%61%6C%6F%6E%65
As to being: A scam
I prefer dealing in facts.
Not every author is happy with their publisher if their book isn’t a run away best seller or they are turned down. Too often a first time author doesn’t have a realistic idea of just how many books they will sell. Research shows that a successful first time author could sell between 1000 to 2500 books. That fact alone shakes an author’s confidence.
My book has done very well. Does that mean Tate Publishing is the best? No. it means that the partnership involved in this book worked. They did their job and I did mine.
And those are the facts.
Leon Mentzer
hi i have sent in my manuscript to tate.i also got a contract. Im only 15 and at first before the price it looked like a good place to get a book published. But now that i’ve seen the 4000 investment pay it doesnt seem to good. I took a look at iuniverse but it dosent publish childrens books. Do you have any sugestions on were i can go? Thanks
Zack,
The important thing now is to keep writing. Never, I repeat NEVER, pay to have your book published. If someone offers to publish your book in return for money, that should be a big warning sign to you that they are not a real publisher but rather a “vanity press” or worse, an out-right scam.
If you really feel you’re ready to submit your book for publication, only approach reputable publishers. You can start by looking at who published the books that you enjoy reading, then look them up in the Writers Market and see if they are accepting unsolicited submissions (meaning not from agent).
But I would say that, at this point, you are better off concentrating more on refining your skills than getting published.
Take some writing courses and read as much as you can. But the most important thing of all is to just keep writing!
Lee
I a published author with Tate Publishing. My books are found almost everywhere on the internet.I have not received any big royalties from them. I am giving them a try. I hope they justify themself. I am not speaking against Tate neither am I speaking for them howvere I know that the end will justify the means.
Joseph
I have sent a Children’s Book with the manuscript and I did the illustrations for this. Tate Publishing has sent me a book signing contract package. I do not know anything about publishing so I am trying to ask any experienced persons out there if this company is a trusting company?
Is there any one out there that has written childrens book or any others if you have been successfull with Tate? And have you seen your money back after that 5,000 amount?
Does other Publishers make you pay a participation investment? It is reasonable to set the amount of books to 5,000? Help here!
No, this is a scam! Do NOT pay them $5000! Publishers pay you, you don’t pay them…if you do, you’re a sucker.
But if you are determined to pay to be published, you can do it for a couple of hundred bucks through iUniverse. Run screaming from this contract.
I am a published author: 10 books, hundreds of articles. Tate has offered me a contract for book #11. I want to talk with people who have experience with Tate before I sign.
I sent Tate my manuscript this week.
Are there other publishers you suggest for my program.
LIFEAHOLIC{WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING)
I marketed as 8 tape audio twenty years ago.
I plan to speak to churches-high schools-universities-clubs-businesses.
It was reviewed by many and three university Presidents gave it high marks and suggested I put it into a book.
That was 20 years ago. Golf First.
I present a possible table of contents
I failed to get two political books published in 1998. Publishers wanted $10,000 to $20,000.
Please advise. I will appreciate it.
clarence swinney
cwswinney@netzero.net LIFEAHOLIC
A TERM DEVELOPED AFTER YEARS OF STUDY AND RESEARCH RESULTING FROM A STATEMENT BY REV. GEORGE W. SWINNEY TO HIS WORKAHOLIC SON CLARENCE—
“SON, WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING”
LEARN TO WORK FOR A LIFE NOT JUST A LIVING
BY
EVERYTHING CAN BE IMPROVED-EVERYTHING
DAILY HABITS FOR SUCCESS
HOW TO MAKE SIMPLE THE COMPLEX THINGS
VIEWING YOUR WORLD FROM YOUR OWN SPACESHIP
DEVELOPING YOUR PRIORITIES IN LIFE
DON’T REINVENT THE WHEEL
VALUE OF SELF IMPORTANCE
BEING PRESIDENT OF YOUR CORPORATION
SELLING YOURS SKILLS-NOT GIVING THEM AWAY
THE USE OF YOUR WAREHOUSE-STORE JEWELS NOT JUNK
TOP DOWN TECHNIQUES ON YOUR JOB
CLARENCE W. SWINNEY
PO BOX 3411
BURLINGTON, NC 27215
CWSWINNEY@NETZERO.NET
i have been picked up by Tate and they have been fantastic to work with.Do not listen to the negitive, it takes time to get your name out there so if your looking for instant results your in the wrong business.
You haven’t been “picked up” by Tate — they have agreed to take your money. You’re a sucker. (And it’s “you’re,” not “your”)
I have a friend who sent in his work to Tate Publishing. It is a fiction piece and reads very well. My question is this, does Tate always take so long to read, or does this mean my friend did not make the mark? It has been nearly two months. Also, is it true that when they have you come to Okla. to sign the contract, they put you up in a hotel until all the business is taken care of? Some things about them sound to good to be true. I want my friend to be satisfied with the publisher of his choice, but I also want the publisher to be satisfied with my friend, not just using him and his talent to get money. Please feel free to comment. Thank you,
Awand Frebo
I am trying to get published, this will be my first time. I am looking into publishing companies, can anyone tell me which one is best for poetry? xlibis or authorhouse or infinity or iuniverse, I am in the process of typing my book so I can put it on a disk, is this neccesary? or can i send in a completed maunscript?
I don’t usually comment on blogs, but this topic makes my teeth hurt. First, let me say I’ve had seven books published, both electronically and in print, through three different publishers. And I’ve never–let me repeat that–NEVER, paid them a penny for marketing. A legitimate publisher covers the cost of marketing your book because they want it to sell. If it sells, they make money. If they don’t think it will sell, they won’t buy it. Basically, what Tate is doing is telling you, “Your writing sucks and we don’t think it’ll make us any money, so you have to pay us $4,000 or we won’t publish it.” I don’t care if they call it a “partnership” or a “meeting of the minds.” It’s a vanity press. Have you ever looked up the definition of vanity in the dictionary? Allow me. It’s something that is considered futile, worthless, or empty of significance.
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation.
Even while I’m typing this response I know there are people out there who will ignore this advice because they need to believe what they’re writing is worth publishing. But please, don’t fall prey to these scammers. A real publisher will never ask you for money. And isn’t it better to know you’ve succeeded because you’re good, than to know you had to pay someone to publish your work?
This is my question. How many people are really paid for printing there book as a first time author? If you are unknown, publishers will not even accept your manuscript for review? How are you then supposed to get paid upfront for publishing? Unless you are famous, or have a famous story, then it seems improbable at best to be thrown money for your manuscript. Is this not a valid concept?
That simply isn’t true. I sold my first novel and I wasn’t famous…nor did I have “a famous story” to tell. My brother sold his first novel, too, without any contacts or advantages…except talent and perseverance.
The vast majority of bestselling novelists began their careers as an unknowns who sold their first novel to a publisher who recognized their talent.
Nobody knew who Stephen King was when he sold CARRIE…or who JK Rowling was when she sold her first Harry Potter novel.
Read some interviews with your favorite novelists and learn how they sold their first books. I can guarantee you that 99.9% of them NEVER paid anyone to publish them.
Vanity presses like Tate prey on desperation, fear, impatience, gullibility and ignorance. Don’t be one of the suckers.
it’s true…the Harry Potter author was poor..you think she actually had money to pay for a publisher????
Having Tate publishing publish my book is the greatest mistake I have made. Recently they sent me 26 cents as my royalty for the last quarter of last year. Till date I have no idea the number of copies of my books that have been printed so far.I owe a credit card company $4000.00. My book is virtually in obscurity. I have certainly regretted doing this. I guess I was impulsed with their sugar coated words and I was trapped into believing that my 4000 dollars would come back after a year. It has been almost a year, they have not contacted me neither have I heard anything from them concerning my book. Good luck with you if they have met your expectation. They are yet to meet mine.
Per Tate Publishing: Friends, life is an adventure. I have written numerous pieces for Concordia Publishing House. Recently I have published 2 books and I’ve gotten to know the CEO of this publisher personally. I know what it costs simply to print a book (it’s a lot less than many suppose). I signed with Tate. In less than a week of reviewing my ms. they sent me an overnight contract to sign. The $4,000 I paid will not even cover the cost of printing the books, much less editing, promotion, etc. For this same $4,000 (a little less, actually) of money they are also producing audio books of my manuscript. If my book doesn’t sell, they’ll have lost money running in the thousands. I can understand why a publisher that is willing to work with unknown authors hedges. The constant reference to “publishers pay you” is true for established authors and publishers who won’t even consider an unknown artist. I’m not sure how well Tate will market my book in its various forms, but if my book doesn’t do well they WILL lose money. I don’t think they want to do that. Thanks for the discussion.
I do not know Tate but their site certainly does not make it sound like a POD or vanity until you really investigate. Not a good sign.
My book, A Pained Life, a chronic pain journey, https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=18435
was published through Xlibris.
Random House owns 49% or 51% of Xlibris. That is because they believe POD will be the way of publishing in the future.
Yes, if you want to go through rejection after rejection until you find an editor who likes what you wrote and if you want to hope that person is still there when you make the changes he/she suggests and you want to keep your fingers crossed that the committee who then looks at the manuscript ok’s it for publication, that’s great.
If you don’t then POD may be for you.
Successful authors, such as Piers Anthony, are going POD because for the same reason many of us do, we have complete control over the content and the editing and the book is available in 2 – 3 months, as opposed to 12 to 18 or longer. The royalties are also higher than with ‘traditional publishing’ and we retain all rights to our work.
That is great you went traditiional. But please do not put down what is now a very legitimate way of getting a book out there.
There is crap with POD because of the ease of publication but there is also crap from traditional houses.
Beware of the scammers. Make sure if you choose a POD you check them out very carefully.
And don’t let someone tell you POD is the same as vanity. You do not, unless you decide that is what you want to do, sell your books out of the back of your car.
Your books get sold through the publisher or thru distribution companies, such as Ingram, just like the ‘real’ books do.
My book was very well reviewed by a NY Times Magazine writer. Other reviews have been positive too.
To my pleasant surprise word of mouth, and no other advertising, has kept it selling consistently for 4 years.
I do not recommend Xlibris but I am very happy with my decision to go POD.
Thank you.
Just an addendum. I looked up your books and went to your website. It is certainly easier to find a publisher when you start out as a journalist. You presented it as though you did not have – if not a foot at least a toe in the door. As a journalist you certainly had contacts that most of the hoi pooli do not.
Thank you
I have been offered a contract from Publish America. I have read some disturbing things about them on the internet. However, I have also read some of their Authors love their results with them. I also have that same Manuscript being reviewed by Tate Publishing. I plan on doing constant marketing of my book regardless of the Publisher. Do you think it would be better for me to go the self-publishing route. What about Dorrance Publishing?
I have researched Tate publishing. I have also known the president personally, even though he doesn’t know. I grew up in the same area, and wrestled under him as my coach. This is only to say that I know that the man has a heart. I’ve seen it. I AM defending the man.
It’s important to understand the leader in an organization.
The leader is the foundation and all the companies integrity flows in and out of its leaders. That is why it is important to explain to you all that Mr. Tate is an honest man.
Furthermore there is another point I’d like to make.
As an example, a Gillette shaving kit easily costs me eighteen dollars, and extra razors about another thirteen for an eight pack. Over time the cost of shaving with traditional razors adds up to far more than two maintenance free, long lasting electric razors, not to mention all the facial creams and medicine it takes to keep the razor burn under control. Very expensive. Diposable razors get even more costly, being a dollar sometimes more every time I shave, and with disposables I end up having to re-shave often. If I had bought a seventy or eighty dollar electric razor, It would have paid for itself in shaving cream, aftershave, clearasil, lotion, and new razors, after six months. Electric razor blades are typically replaced every few years.
The topic of this blog is not razors, I know, it is publishing fees. These are products and services. The principle works in every market, every industry. Normal publishers would never have even given daughter of the man shown above half a wink. Instead Mr. Tate offers a one time fee, deals away with agency, gives you almost 40% in royalties for every book sold and continues to venture with you in your advertising needs. I just mailed my manuscript to Tate. I couldn’t even get my foot in the door of an AGENCY, that MIGHT have sent my work into Random house, That MIGHT have considered publishing my book. How much do you think that would have cost me, just for being a new author?
In the literature industry, it should never be expected to make much money off of your first book. No one is ever expected to make it in their first small business venture. No one can cover the costs of marketing anything with just the first sale. In the case of the child above, it is plain silly to think anyone would publish something from the hand of a child, rarely in all of history is that successful. Yet for a one time fee, she was given a chance by Mr Tate. Now that means Mr Tate is crazy, or Tate publishing really does look for the diamond in the rough.
Clifford,
Dorrance is another vanity press that preys on the desperation, gullibility, and foolishness of aspiring authors. They are no better or worse than Tate…as far as I am concerned, it would be a mistake to pay either one of them to print your manuscript in book form.
If you are intent on throwing your money away, you can throw away a lot less by going to iuniverse.com or at lulu.com.
Matthew,
Vanity presses thrive on misinformed people like yourself. You write:
“Instead Mr. Tate offers a one time fee, deals away with agency, gives you almost 40% in royalties for every book sold and continues to venture with you in your advertising needs.”
That’s because Tate makes 99% of their money off authors, not book sales. It’s easy to give a 40% royalty on books that will never sell. If they actually manage to make a sale to someone who isn’t an author, it’s gravy…and an enticement to get a naive, gullible author to throw away even more money on another book (it’s like the slim pay-offs slot machines give to players…it’s an enticement to get them to keep plugging in their coins).
Agents are a benefit to authors and well worth the 10-15% they get for their effort.
Without one, you’ll spend a LOT more getting suckered by vanity press scams and never become a real, published author.
You write: “I just mailed my manuscript to Tate. I couldn’t even get my foot in the door of an AGENCY, that MIGHT have sent my work into Random house, That MIGHT have considered publishing my book. How much do you think that would have cost me, just for being a new author?”
Nothing. If you have a reputable agent, you aren’t out-of-pocket AT ALL. He gets a 10-15% cut if he sells your book. In other words, when you get PAID TO BE PUBLISHED.
Mr. Tate isn’t crazy. The people who give him thousands of dollars to “publish” their book are…
Lee
Tate Publishing is NOT a vanity press. With regards to the comment that legitimate publisher PAY YOU. Yes they do, IF your name happens to be Oprah or some equivilent, Or IF you’re an expert in your field, or IF you’re a published author. Tate also pays advances to authors who are previously published.
The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies. Try to get a vanity press to guarentee that! They are legitimate, and I have published with them and have just begun my marketing. Thus far I’ve had one newspaper, one magizine and one television spot and the book won’t be on the market for another month. I’ve recieved phone calls from the governors office and have sold books in five states outside of my own from the publishers web site.
There’s a lot of people afraid that someone will steal their work. I suppose if your book is the sum of all you know then you probably need to be concerned. But if you can put all you know inside one book, then Tate probably wouldn’t want you anyway. So if they offered you a contract, it’s because they believe in you, and you should too. Don’t let fear be the primary decision factor, and don’t listen to people who listen to their fear. Contact those who’ve published with Tate and find out their experiences and check them out on the BBB. Hands down, they have followed through on everything they promised.
Lonnie’s contentions are nonsense. Every author was once an unpublished author — yet not every author paid someone to publish their book. This is just the kind of disinformation that the scam artists use to bilk the gullible out of their money. If there is an audience for your work, hold out for a legitimate publisher that will pay you, not the other way around. Don’t get taken in by these scams.
Lonnie writes: “The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies.”
Oh, how generous of them.
You pay to be published and if you miraculously sell 5000 copies, and they have already made money off your book and the interest on what you paid them, they will give you back the $4000 no reputable, professional publisher would ever have asked you for in the first place.
What an unbelievable scam. Anyone who falls for it deserves to be bilked.
Lonnie writes: “So if they offered you a contract, it’s because they believe in you, and you should too.”
If that was true, Lonnie, they wouldn’t ask you for $4000 to print your book for you (and have the gall to take a percentage of the sales on top of that!!).
If you believe in yourself, submit the book to a real publisher. NEVER PAY TO BE PUBLISHED. Every author — myself included — was an unpublished author to start with. I didn’t buy my way in, and neither did John Patterson, Stephen King, Sue Grafton, Janet Evanovich or 99.9% of the now-bestselling authors out there.
Lee
You guys are being a bit to simplistic and frightened. You’re using fear to get your point across because you’re incapable of using logic.
Consider for instance politics: do you know how many different types of governments there are in the world? Are they all wrong except ours? It’s very subjective.
Take any other type of business, are all hospitals alike? All banks, all of anything? Is everything in the world only one way? Is there only one right answer to every question that could ever be posed?
Publishers like any other industry have a wide variety of possible approaches. There are definitely scams, and a person should watch out for them. But whether or not I like their approach doesn’t determine whether or not they’re a scam.
Everyone is unpublished at one time. Absolutely true! But the world is constantly changing and how people approach it changes as well. It used to be ten years ago or so you couldn’t submit a manuscript online. But today, technology has changed the way we do everything, including how publishers weed out the people who believe their wonderful theory on “Who shot JFK” should be published.
Saying, “NEVER PAY TO BE PUBLISHED” is like saying, “NEVER PAY TO OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS!”
I’m not a fan of self publishing, and I steer clear of it as far as I can, but not because it’s bad, but because I don’t have a marketing network to help me sell my book. Tate has offered me a three page marketing plan. But not all marketing plans are the same. Do you market political text books the same as a novel? Of course not. So a marketing plan is not a road map to success, and no publisher can guarantee you success. Tate certainly never led me to believe that I’m going to be rich. In fact Dr. Tate told me not to quit my day job. He also said, they would be investing 20K toward my publication. 4K is hardly enough money to publish and market a book, so even if an individual doubted the 20K, they can’t deny that Tate would have to put forth something.
Vanity presses only publish books on demand, while Tate and other legitimate publisher publish 5000 copies on the first run and I believe the next three subsequent runs. After that they publish and warehouse 10,000 at a time. Why on earth would a vanity press pay money to storehouse your book? Warehouse space costs money as well. They way you can tell that hey are indeed warehousing the product is by the length of time it takes to deliver the product to your door. When my father ordered a copy from the publisher he got it in a week. Do you really think Tate cracked up the presses just to print off one copy for dear old dad? Let’s not be ridiculous. Think about what you’re saying and all of the ramifications of it.
I would encourage people to follow their dreams and to not settle on the first publisher you come to. Even if it is Tate. Educate yourself on the industry before submitting anything. But don’t let fear be your guiding passion, let knowledge, discretion and prudence be the tools you use to determine things. Don’t accept the advice of a jaded bitter wanna be. It’s not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not a scam. Go to the book stores and do some research on publishers that publish your kind of book. Then submit it to them and see what happens. If you don’t like Tate, fine, look around and check it out. But don’t let years pass you by. It only takes one year to publish a book and get it to market from beginning to end.
Good luck fellas!
You know, I was thinking about something Lee wrote: “Lonnie writes: ‘The $4000 mentioned is refunded to you once you sell 5000 copies.’ Oh, how generous of them.”
Why is that so hard to believe? You’re asking a publisher to put up ALL the money and pay you a royalty. Not a bad gig if you can get it. It’s kind of like the guy who has a great idea and goes to a Venture Capitolist to get it funded because he donesn’t have enough money to do it.
But wait… does every successful business in the world use venture capitol? No. So there are many options, of which that is one legitimate option, and some people are lucky enough to find them.
Initially, I think this business has nothing to do with skill or talent, it has to do with luck. Once you get that on your side, then the talent and skill can keep you there. Scams can be detected by asking, who owns the copyright? For Publish America, they do, for Tate Publishing, you do.
You know, using your head, just a little bit, can save you a lot of head ache. But if an individual doesn’t want to go through the work of investigating publishers, then they shouldn’t be writing.
Most of us are not fortunate enough to just write. We also have other jobs, and other lives. But to get published means deadlines and contracts and edits, etc. If you miss the deadline, what effect does that have on the publisher? “Stop the presses Bob, author Johnny Wanna-be didn’t get things to us in time, so you’ll have to send your crew home until we get his manuscript back.” Do wanna-be authors ever think about that? The $4000 Tate asks for is to guarentee that you’ll complete your part. Writing a manuscript is only the beginning. That took me four months, but publishing it, with deadlines and all took another six. If you want to be an author, you must be committed to the process, not just the fame you hope to achieve.
Once again, I wish you all luck!
Leon, you say, “Tate is unique in the publishing world. The author retains complete rights to their book and they do charge a fee. There’re no other fees added. No marketing fees, no PR fees.”
I’ve been published by some of the best traditional publishers in the US and NONE charge a fee of ANY SORT…no marketing fee, no PR fee, NO FEE AT ALL. You may love Tate and they may love you but “unique” isn’t quite the word I’d use.
Lonnie, you say, “The $4000 Tate asks for is to guarentee that you’ll complete your part. Writing a manuscript is only the beginning. That took me four months, but publishing it, with deadlines and all took another six.”
Legitimate traditional book publishers have in their contracts what will happen if an author doesn’t complete his/her ms or edits on time. They DO NOT take $4,000 to “guarentee” (sic) anything. That’s a total rip off. Then you say writing is only the beginning..explain again what else you as the writer has to do? Make corrections after the book’s been copy-edited of course, but what else? You make it sound like Tate wants you to be involved in the actual publication of the book, too. Is that right? If so, what do they want you to do? What is this “process” to which a writer must be committed? I’m not talking post-publication promotion, for most writers will want to have signings, attend conventions, have reviews, etc.
Lonnie also said, “You’re asking a publisher to put up ALL the money and pay you a royalty.”
Exactly! That’s how real publishers do it. A writer creates a product (the book) and the publisher wants to publish it to make money. So….the publisher pays you in advance for your product (the book), and then gives you royalties once and only when your advance has been earned back.
I find it rather humourous that there are a many grammatical errors on this page as there are, especially from writers. In that respect, is Tate just taking in anyone who can type letters onto a screen? “Hi, my name is jon and i cannt spll worth a crap and use majer run on sentence and sound like Zero Wing’s translation when I wrote.”
I was ‘accepted’ at Tate. So what. I also don’t have 4k to spend, nor would I given the option. Why?
Like everyone thinking individual on this discussion, putting money into 8 years of work that I alone have done is ridiculous. Ridiculous!!
I will be calling them up to bargain. I will tell them that if my book is indeed as good as they say it is, they should be willing to meet me more than halfway since they’d make most of the royalty off it in the end regardless of how much I put into it!
I am currently with lulu.com on self publishing. I am not at all happy but it’s a lot happier at the moment ithout the 4,000 smacks I’d be putting into Tate.
If someone from Tate or with Tate would like to counter my opinion, I am more than willing to take advice.
Tim
You know… as I read some of the responses, I’m rethinking some of my thoughts. Perhaps you’re right, Tate made a huge mistake offering contracts to any johnny genius with a new theory on who shot JFK. It’s a good thing you guys were smart enough not to fall for it! After all there’s only one way to do anything right, and that’s your way. No other options could or should ever be considered. Because the “right” way is always the way you think it should be. It must be great being you!
I am a newbee!!! I have written a series of children’s books and am ready to send to Tate. On the other hand, a children’s literary agency has requested to see my work. Better to go with an agency or a publisher from the get go??? Who has got ideas?
Lonnie…options should always be considered. And then those options that take advantage of you should be discarded.
Feel free to have Tate continue to print your books. Feel free to continue to give them money for whatever reasons they tell you they need it. And yes, I’m glad I didn’t “fall for it.”
Is it great being me? Absolutely. We should all feel it’s great being who we are. And none of that has anything to do with our views on Tate.
Dee…is she/he a legitimate agent? Check him/her out first. One thing to watch for – does he/she require a fee? If so, find another agent. Good agents and good publishers do NOT take money to read, critique, nor to publish. Don’t be in a rush. Talk to writers who have published extensively with legitimate/traditional publishers and listen to their advice.
Now, if you want to see your book “in the flesh” no matter what, I’d suggest you check out lulu.com or some other self-publishing companies that don’t take $4,000 up front but charge you per book. It’s not publishing in the real sense, it’s printing. But you’ll have some books in hand when all is said and done. And you won’t have been taken advantage of…you will have paid for a product and will have received it.
Dee,
Agents are middlemen trying to get the best deal they can for you, while getting enough to cover their own expenses. It ultimately depends upon what you’re comfortable with. There’s a multitude of ways to slice this thing, just like there’s a multitude of cars you could buy. But once you make a choice, you need to feel good with it, because you’re going to live with it for a number of years.
I can’t afford an agent, but that doesn’t mean they’re wrong, just another avenue to consider. Have your agent friend look at it, but I wouldn’t sign anything until you’re confident they can do for you what you would like to see done.
Tate works with you whether you have an agent or not, sos that part doesn’t matter. You might let this agent try to see if they can get you published as a first time author with Tate WITHOUT having to pay the up front fee of 4K. that would be a good test of their ability. But you’ll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job. They might be just as successful going to another publisher. Ultimately the royalties I see in the industry range from 7% to 25% depending upon who you are and how well know you are. I’ve got 15%. Is that good? I think so; perhaps your agent friend would think different. Maybe tell your friend their comission is anything over 15% and let them see what they can do. Tate’s OK, don’t be afraid, but look around so you feel good about your choice. Then don’t look back, until the end of your contract, and then consider if you made the right decision.
Best of luck to you.
Lonnie said, “You might let this agent try to see if they can get you published as a first time author with Tate WITHOUT having to pay the up front fee of 4K. that would be a good test of their ability. But you’ll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job.”
Lonnie, Lonnie, Lonnie. Where are you getting your information? First of all…an agent may not sell a book because it’s not a poorly written book, not because they don’t have the “ability” to sell books. Second, you say, “you’ll no doubt have to pay the agent for that job.” Really? Did you read my post? I’m talking from real life publishing experience, having been in the business as a professional for 24 years. I’ve NEVER paid a legitimate agent; the agent takes his/her cut once the publisher has paid the advance and the royalties. An legitimate agent does not get paid for submissions he/she makes on behalf of the writer. Don’t pass along “urban legends,” please.
15% royalty is a good rate, IF you didn’t have to pay thousands of dollars for some silly upfront fee.
You say you can’t afford an agent. What does that mean? Let me repeat: an agent works for the writer; he/she makes money for the writer. The writer does not pay any sort of fee to the agent. If that’s the case, it’s a rip off, set up to take advantage of folks who don’t understand how it should work.
Let me correct a typo. I said, “First of all…an agent may not sell a book because it’s not a poorly written book, not because they don’t have the ‘ability’ to sell books.”
This should read, “First of all…an agent may not sell a book because it’s a poorly written book, not because they don’t have the ‘ability”‘to sell books.”
And again, let me clarify in case my last paragraph is not clear…
An agent does not take an upfront fee; the money or “fee” he/she makes comes from the money the writer makes. They are not paid ahead of time for any submissions. I’ve never heard the complaint that one cannot “afford” an agent.
Dee, good luck.
Jason Pinter offered this advice in another discussion here, but I think it’s worth repeating for anyone considering blowing their money with Tate…
———————-
Having worked in publishing, with actual editorial experience at three “big publishing” houses, I thought I’d dispel a few myths that have been bandied about here. In my five years in editorial, I acquired both fiction and non-fiction. I’ve sat in hundreds of editorial meetings, and gotten thousands of submissions from reputable–and disreputable–agents. This is not to toot any sort of horn, but merely to offer proof that I know what I’m talking about. Anyway:
1) Amazon, despite what Yvonne says, is not a distributor. They are a retailer. There is a huge difference. A distributor buys x number of books from a publisher, then “distributes” them among their sales channels. Levy is an example of a distributor. Ingram is a distributor. Distributors have a financial stake in the success of the book. If it does not sell, they lose money.
2) Amazon is ‘not’ the preferred distributor, or retailer, or anything like that. They are a piece of the puzzle, sure, but as of today only about 3%-5% of that puzzle. Brick and mortar stores, with few exceptions, are the most important part of the puzzle (though big box stores, like Sam’s Club and BJ’s are growing in importance). It costs Amazon nothing to put up a page for a self-published book, and it certainly doesn’t mean they have to order any copies. If a self-published book doesn’t sell any copies on Amazon, they lose nothing but the time it took to post the page.
3) There are authors who benefit from self-publishing, but they are extremely rare. They are, with very few exceptions, non-fiction authors who have either a substantial platform or take part in many speaking engagements at which to sell their books. In this case, they benefit from increased royalties. Many NF authors that publish with traditional publishers actually negotiate to buy back a certain amount of copies–at a large discount–in order to both sell at their lectures as well as in B&M stores. Though yes, it is true that sometimes publishers do acquire a book solely because the author commits to a substantial buyback. Yes this is cynical publishing, but publishing is a business, and publishers do what they need to do to stay in business.
4) Big name publishing is only watching if you make them watch. The fact of the matter is, when a self-published novel comes in on submission, it is assumed, often correctly, that the novel could not find a mainstream publisher. Yes, there are self-published novels that are well-written and do eventually land contracts, but again they are exceedingly few and far between. Anyone who thinks self-publishing is the best route to getting a mainstream contract, give me a ring, I have some real estate to sell you…
5) “Big Publishing” generally takes longer to publish books because it takes months to properly sell and promote the book to their accounts. Any publisher, if they wanted to could, put out a book out lickity split. In fact, those books are called “crash books,” and they’re only done if a book is especially timely and/or publicity driven. But if you print a book in a month just because you can, Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon, etc…wouldn’t take diddly squat because they’d have no reason to.
6) Publishers do drop the ball. That’s the way it works, unfortunately. Good books go unread and don’t get the promotion they need or deserve, and bad books become monster bestsellers. Hell, “Fools Gold” was #1 at the box office.
7) There’s no doubt publishing is changing, though change is certainly taking its time. The Kindle might be doing well relatively, but ebooks are such a small fraction of book sales (like 1% of 1%) that it’s far too early in the device’s release for it to have made anywhere near a dent, or even a smudge, on the market.
Just a few thoughts.
Lonnie’s comments are inane. Everyone can “afford” an agent. A legitimate, reputable agent doesn’t charge ANY fees at all. He gets a commission of what you make from the deals he negotiates for you.
There is a big difference between giving an agent 15% of the $15,000 advance that a publisher PAYS ME to publish my book and PAYING Tate $5000 up front to publish my book — which 99 times out of 100 will NEVER earn back my investment.
In the agent scenario, I am MAKING MONEY. In the Tate scenario, I AM LOSING IT. The agent gets paid when I get paid. I am not taking ANY financial risk.
Lee
I recently submitted a children’s story to Tate, and when I received the offer in the mail I was beside myself with joy. Then, I read the contract, and discovered that I had to pay an investment fee.
I’ve been to enough workshops and seminars to know that a you don’t pay a publisher. So, naturally I declined their offer.
Hey, if somebody else wants to travel down that road, so be it. It’s just not something I want to get involved with.
-Donna
Lonnie says “Don’t accept the advice of a jaded bitter wanna be. It’s not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not a scam.”
Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna-be. Have you seen the list of books he’s written and had published by genuine publishers? I’ll take his advice over yours, especially when yours is as bad as “it’s not worth waiting years to determine who is and is not as scam.” You’re so right, Lonnie. It’s much better to be screwed out of 4K by a vanity press that hides behind Christian values.
Well, we’ve got a little communication going!
Cleavon, you are correct, Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna be! I personally don’t know of him, but my daughter is very familar with his work and says, “Hi!”
I don’t know JT Barker either, but that does mean anything, he sounds intelligent and well educated on the process.
In fact I don’t know any of you, but the one thing I do know, is that ranting about Tate is stupid. Do I have all the answers on this? No way. You would be better to listen to Lee or RT, with one exception; and guys perhaps you can talk me through this. I respect intelligent answers, not rants. Just because a person has the capacity to speak or write, doesn’t make him intelligent. Your last couple responses I thought were excellent. Especially the pieces on agents.
I’m a computer programmer, so I need you to walk me through this logically. I don’t assume either of you were born with a golden spoon in your mouth and handed your careers, you worked hard for it. I assume writing is all you do. (None of this is intended to be sarcastic, so bear with me.) When you started out submitting manuscripts 25 years ago, you typed them on a type writer; there was nothing like the internet. Now, the world has changed. How have submissions changed in the process?
When you call someone a scam, I interpret that to mean they take my money and give me nothing in return. Do you have the same definition?
Self publishing is not a scam, but it’s also not for everybody. Do you agree?
Traditional publishing is great! But not everybody takes new authors. How do you get in there then? I’m busy working everyday, like everyone else and involved with other things, writing is only one of them. If I were 25 again and had no responsibility but to succeed at writing, I could probably learn and know the things you guys do. Have you ever been 50 and starting down a new path? In this world? It’s not cut and dry.
If I pay money and get something in return am I being scammed? I don’t see Tate as the be all and end all. I see them as a step in the process of beginning. We can’t all be 25 again and start over. Some of us have to be 50 and start over, in a world that wasn’t the same as when you guys started. Options have become more complicated and varied, not simplified and concise. I’m not a 15 year girl surfing the net who knows who Lee Goldberg is. I have a job like everybody else. I don’t sacrifice my marriage for a career, so therefore I have only one wife not three or more. That takes time and effort to maintain while goign doen this other road.
I don’t know if you guys really appreciate all the effort people go through to make it in this day and age. I’m not trying to be mean, I just don’t hear the connection come across in any of the words you’ve written.
Where are these agents and traditional publishers? The yellow pages? The internet? Are they standing along the roadside? I suppose a person has to start asking the question of those who know where to look. That’s why I do appreciate RT and Lee, and I do respect their opinon, but I need logic not emotion. Give me a name and number of the agent you use and I’ll call them today. Educate me. But no rants on Tate. I’m getting what I paid for, and I’m OK. Maybe I was wrong, but it doesn’t matter. Mistakes are part of the process, and this hasn’t proved itself out to be a mistake yet.
If you want to take pot shots, go ahead, I’ll back away and leave you alone. But if you’re serious about this and not just trashing every who disagrees with you, then give me a name and a number, or even an address and we’ll begin a serious dialog. Otherwise what’s the point? It’s like those who spend their life saying, “There’s the problem.” But spedn not one minute considering a solution.
By the way JT, you asked about what else a writer has to do? None of this hard mind you, but it all requires time, and that’s just a reality. From the time I signed the contract I had reread my manuscript probably a dozen times or more. There was the editing, the back matter, the cover art, the puctuation, etc. All part of the process, but it still took six months. I didn’t just hand it off to Tate and they took it from there. I know you know these things, but I wonder if perhaps you forgot what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I’m not attacking you, so take it easy. I just don’t hear the connection in your voice.
Lonnie
RT,
I checked out Lulu and it appears to me to be a self publisher. Is that correct? Not that that’s bad, but certainly that’s not how you got your start. Is it?
Tell us about your first contract. How did it go down? What were the royalties? What did your agent do or not do that caused you to learn from the process? Who was your publisher? Once again, I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious.
Lulu was OK, but I’d rather pay Tate to do all that for me. Now I’m published and they’re setting up signings. They’ve done what I paid them to do. I don’t plan to get rich, this will never be my career move, but it’s a piece to a much larger puzzle. How I get there is not quite as important to me as getting there. Money to me is secondary, but I understand for others it’s a much bigger deal. But I seriously want to know more about your first deal.
Thanks, Lonnie
Lonnie,
David Montgomery posted the following in another discussion but I think his points are appropriate here as well:
———————-
If a self-published author spends $10,000 to publish his book (a reasonable figure), he’d have to sell 2857 copies (at $3.50 net profit each) to break even.
That’s assuming, of course, that the author doesn’t value his time as worth anything. (One assumes that the labor involved with running a self-publishing operation is considerable.)
Obviously most self-published books can’t accomplish that sales figure. But if it could, the author could more than likely sell it to a traditional publisher, and probably expect to get an advance of at least $10,000 (minus an agent’s commission, for a net of $8500).
In order to recoup the $10,000 investment and match a $8,500 advance, the self-published author would have to sell 5286 copies.
Of course, if the author can sell 5286 copies, that same book, traditionally published, would earn royalties of approximately $15,858. Net of an agent’s commission, that comes to $13,479 paid to the author.
In the self-published scenario, the author invests $10,000 and has a profit of $8500. In the traditionally published scenario, the author invests $0 and has a profit of $13,479 — 59% greater with no financial risk involved.
Consider two more factors: the self-published author is spending considerable time operating as a publisher, rather than a writer, in this scenario. In addition, any book that can sell 5000 copies as a self-published novel could likely sell many more with the support of a traditional publishing house — thus making the author even more money.
(This doesn’t even consider those authors who reap advances greater than $10,000, which is a lot of them.)
So even if a self-published author can hit one out of the park and sell 5k copies, the numbers just don’t add up.
(Before someone points out: “Yeah, but what if you can’t get a traditional publisher to take your book.” If a novel is marketable enough to sell 5k copies self-published, I believe in nearly all cases that a traditional publisher would take it.)
Lonnie said, “By the way JT, you asked about what else a writer has to do? None of this hard mind you, but it all requires time, and that’s just a reality. From the time I signed the contract I had reread my manuscript probably a dozen times or more. There was the editing, the back matter, the cover art, the puctuation, etc. All part of the process, but it still took six months. I didn’t just hand it off to Tate and they took it from there. I know you know these things, but I wonder if perhaps you forgot what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I’m not attacking you, so take it easy. I just don’t hear the connection in your voice.”
I reply, writing certainly takes time. No disagreement there. Rewriting and rewriting, prior to submitting the ms for publication, is the job of the writer. Then once a book has been accepted by a publisher, and then copy edited, the job of the writer is to correct typos and inconsistencies (this includes punctuation.)
However, a writer shouldn’t have to be responsible for the cover art. That’s the job of the publisher. The back matter is also the job of the publisher, although on occasion they may ask for input. Publishers/editors are the ones who are supposed to know how to best market your work; they should have professional illustrators, designers, and marketing personnel on staff to take care of these things. You suggest I might have forgotten what it was like to write and work and carry on all of the rest. I haven’t forgotten doing some of those things because I never had to, even with my very first novel. I was sent cover flats when they were done, complete with cover art and back cover copy. Were those responsibilities assigned to you in your contract?
Not to worry, I certainly don’t feel attacked. My energetic response was merely my attempt to get you to think about what you were saying in light of new information. And, Lonnie, you said you respect intelligent answers, not rants. Yet it was you who said, “Because the ‘right’ way is always the way you think it should be. It must be great being you!” I wasn’t attacking you, just responding to incorrect information being touted as correct. I’m sure if you were very certain about something, as I am about the way legitimate agents work, and someone was giving false information or partial truths, you would want to set the record straight.
All the best.
Lonnie, you also said, “Where are these agents and traditional publishers? The yellow pages? The internet? Are they standing along the roadside? I suppose a person has to start asking the question of those who know where to look.”
Have you tried the most current edition of The Writers Market? Have you attended writers conferences and conventions? Explore a bookstore and find books that are similar in content to what you have written. Are you impressed with the publisher? If so, look them up and contact them. This could be your market.
No one handed me the phone number of an agent or a publishing house. I sought them out myself. It’s not easy. It takes patience, time, and determination. But such a learning experience is well worth it in the long run.
Lonnie says “Lee Goldberg is hardly a wanna be! I personally don’t know of him, but my daughter is very familar with his work and says, “Hi!”
So what are you doing on his blog!? And now that you’re here, you didn’t notice his books on the column to the right? That says more about you than anything. You are posting on his blog, and yet you “don’t know of him.” Wouldn’t you want to before you associate yourself with him? This comment of yours is indicative how ill-informed and lazy you are, even when the facts are right in your face. No wonder you don’t see the enormous pitfalls of handing 4K to Tate. Your eyes are closed.
Lee,
Thank you. I was out of line on that comment. I apologize if I come across strong. This is extremely informative and I do appreciate your input.
You asked, “I was sent cover flats when they were done, complete with cover art and back cover copy. Were those responsibilities assigned to you in your contract?” I wouldn’t say assigned, and perhaps we’re talking about the same thing here. Tate gave me an artist to work with who drew up three options. I didn’t like any of them and made another suggestion to which the artist gave me a picture that nailed the exact thought I was after. The backmatter was mine to write. You are correct, after the editing, it was pretty much all over for me and the ball was in their court. I just had one round of punctuation edits.
By the way I had my first signing the other day and I learned alot. It also resulting in a channel 12 interview. It looks as though it could open up into quite a list of Newspaper and television interviews. My question to you is this; when doing a signing should a person consider this almost like doing a trade show? Taht probably sounds stupid, but it seems so lame just smiling at people while your sitting or standing behind a table hoping they’ll come by. I’m wondering if I need an eisle with a picture of the Newspaper articles, or perhaps bring my laptop and have FOX TV interview or the channel 12 available for people. How would a store view this? I’ve got 3-4 more signings coming up within the next month or two and we’re just starting the process.
I appreciate your advice.
Thanks, Lonnie
Lonnie,
I have no idea what comment you are referrng to and I never asked you that question about cover flats. You must be confusing me with someone else.
Lee
Yikes!
I’m sorry about that Lee. I guess that had come from RT. But either way, the advice given by both of you is extremely informative. So I’m still interested in your input.
Alright, talk me through this “agent” thing then. I’m probably not going to talk intelligently here, so forgive me, but I think I can communicate the idea I’m getting at. Out of the total price of a book, which we will call 100%, certain fees are covered. There’s a percentage of the total for:
1) The actual cost of printing
2) The cost of storage
3) The cost of marketing
4) The cost of the authors royalties
5) The cost of an agent if applicable.
According to what was said above, an agent costs the author nothing. Their services are said to be paid for by the publisher. So it stands to reason the publisher would rather not use agents in order to make a larger profit. Am I correct in that assumption? Or is there value that an agent brings to the publisher in terms of marketing that would release that responsibility from the publisher thus offsetting whatever percentage the publisher has already factored in.Then I could understand why a publisher would want to use an agent, and why it would be advantagous for the auther as well. That seems to make sense to me, but am I correct?
Lonnie
Lonnie,
You don’t have to worry about
1) The actual cost of printing
2) The cost of storage
3) The cost of marketing
4) The cost of the authors royalties
All of that is the publisher’s problem, not yours. Get it out of your head. Your job is to write a book and get paid for it.
When you deal with a real publisher (as oppose to Tate), there are NO costs to you. They pay YOU to publish your book … the money is an advance against royalties. And then when your book sales earn out your advance, you get royalties. YOU PAY NOTHING.
Your agent gets 10-15% of everything you earn from the book. That is his motivation to get you the very best deal from the very best publisher.
When you deal with a legitimate, reputable agent, you pay them NOTHING out of your own pocket, only a commission on what you earn.
The publisher isn’t paying the agent, you are…but out of the money the agent is able to get for you. He doesn’t get paid until you do. The more money you make, the more money he does…that’s his incentive.
One of the many benefits of having an agent is that they are usually well-connected in publishing, know the marketplace and needs of the publishers, have strong relationships with editors, and are very knowledgeable about publishing contracts. They are in the best position to get you the best deal.
Many publishers would much prefer not to deal with an agent because an agentless writer is a prime sucker… the publisher can pay the writer less and screw them out of many more rights.
On the other hand, publishers like agents because they perform a necessary gate-keeper function, weeding out bad manuscripts and bad authors, which theoretically means that publishers are only being submitted the stuff that agents think they can actually make some money on.
Lee
Thanks Lee… let me think on that for a while.
Lonnie, you are still drinking the vanity press kool-aid. You aren’t responsible for those costs, the publisher is!! Listen to Lee, the way it works is that the publisher pays you, not the other way around. Any publisher who starts whining to you about their costs and expects you to off-set them isn’t a real publisher but a scammer.
Lonnie said, “You asked, “I was sent cover flats when they were done, complete with cover art and back cover copy. Were those responsibilities assigned to you in your contract?””
That was me.
And Lee has given clear specifics. Bottom line, you do not pay a publisher for anything. Period. If you pay a publisher, it is not a publisher. It is a “printer.”
Thanks RT…
I hear what you’re saying, but I’m already into this so I need to see it through to the end. Maybe they’ve screwed me, but like I said before, they’re doing everything I expected. Maybe my expectations are too low! But if they are it’s only out of ignorance. The more I play this game the better I’ll get. I’ve never considered myself the sum of only one good idea. This will be my learning curve.
I’ve got several other manuscripts in the works and I’ll try it your way before going back to Tate. That’ll allow me to have something before me to compare it with.
Thanks RT,
Lonnie
I have learned much from the discussions posted here. A well rounded debate invested with passion, yet clothed in civility and respect for one another makes this interesting reading indeed! I myself am entertaining an idea to have our radio ministry publish a devotional. As we approach 365 original devotions written and broadcast, I thought perhaps by publishing them we might further expand our outreach. Searching the internet for information on becoming published has brought me to many of the sites which you have discussed in this forum. I wish to thank you all for your insight and experience which you have shared here.
Lee or RT,
So I’m not wasting my time, is this site a fair representation of Literary Agents?
http://www.ebookcrossroads.com/agents.html
Or am I still missing something?
Lonnie
I am not familiar with “ebookcrossroads,” but their list includes several well-known and reputable agents (though it is by no means a complete and exhaustive list of all the agents out there). You might try visiting the Association for Authors Representatives (http://www.aar-online.org/mc/page.do) and looking through their database.
Lee,
Thanks, I’ll check that out. I’m noticing differences in what agents require vs. publishers in their submission requests. It seems agents are asking for sample chapters, summary outlines, etc. Indicating a search for talent not completed works. While “some” publishers, such as Tate, only consider completed works. Almost indicating an unwillingness to take the first step toward believing in the author’s talent and work, hence placing the burden on the author to see if they believe in their work.
Is it fair to say, if a publisher or agent requires the manuscript to be completed before consideration that a red flag should be raised? If that’s true, I could have two manuscripts ready to submit by the end of the month. I’ve been trying to complete them for the past year; one is about 85% and the other about 25%.
Lonnie
Lonnie,
You wrote: “While some publishers, such as Tate, only consider completed works.”
Tate is not a publisher, they are a printer. They want your completed manuscript so they can charge your outrageous fees to print it for you. It has nothing to do with belief in your work or you as a creative voice and everything to do with wanting to take your money and profit from your gullibility and desperation. You have to get out of the vanity press mindset…or you will continue to be taken.
Agents don’t want to slog through an entire manuscript if they can tell from chapter one whether or not the author has talent and saleability. If they want to read more after that, they will ask for the rest of the manuscript.
Lee
Gentlemen,
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but just hear me out, and set me straight. I get your point; there are Printers and Vanity Presses (you pay them) and publishers (they pay you).
It seems distinctions are not as black and white as you make it.
I see the following:
1. Printers: Kinko’s, Office Max, etc.
2. Vanity Presses: Publish America, etc.
3. Publishers: Random House, etc.
4. Hybrid Presses: Tate, etc.
I find anytime people limit their thinking to only two options, there’s something they’ve missed. So what’s the difference between all of the above? Each offers something different than the other. The right or wrong of it lies with the needs of the individual.
QUESTIONS
1. Do they charge you money?
2. Does the work need to be completed upon submission?
3. Do you market your own book?
4. Do you warehouse your own books?
5. Do you pay for subsequent printing?
6. Do you own the copyright?
7. Do they assign you an editor?
8. Do they assign you a publicist?
9. Do they set up the ISDN number for you?
10.Do they pay you a royalty?
11.Do they work with agents?
12.Do they work with distributors?
13.Do they set up book signings and tours?
14.Are they readily available to you online or by phone?
Each of the four I described will answer differently to each question.
1. Printers are pretty cut and dry and they’re all about the same.
2. Vanity presses offer some services, but everything is for a fee.
3. Publishers appear to take care of all the details and pay royalties to the author.
4. Hybrid Presses are nothing like printers, but more a cross between Vanity Presses and Publishers.
The thing about Tate was that once I sell 5000 copies I received my initial $4K investment back, and there is no further charge for any subsequent printings. Vanity Presses and Printers would never offer free subsequent printing services for the next seven years of a contract, but I could see a publisher doing it.
I’ve said enough. Let me have it.
Lonnie
Lonnie,
Your mind is clearly made up in favor of Tate. Why bother continuing the discussion?
I hope it works out for you. If you can sell 5k copies through them… Well, good for you.
(You’re probably just as likely to win the lottery… But good luck on that as well.)
A couple more questions:
1. Why would a publisher waste his time on something that only sells 5000 copies? That sounds like a minimum requirement to me.
2. Since when would a vanity press or a printer ever refund money once a goal has been met? That doesn’t sound like a publisher either.
3. Since when would a vanity press or a printer ever send a royalty check? That sounds like a publisher. Isn’t the point of printing or vanity presses that you do all of that?
I get that Tate isn’t a traditional publisher in the strictest sense of the word. But nor are they a printer or vanity press in the strictest sense of the word.
Hence a hybrid.
Lonnie
Lonnie,
You seem intent on convincing yourself that Tate is a publisher or, as you laughably put it, a “Hybrid.” It’s not. It’s a straight-forward, black-and-white, by-the-numbers vanity press.
If you want to delude yourself into thinking otherwise because they dangle the carrot of “refunding” the money that you paid to be printed in the highly unlikely event that you sell five thousand books, be my guest.
Clearly, I’ve been wasting my time explaining the facts of publishing vs vanity presses to you. I’m done now. You’ve bought their fantasy along with their printing services and you are a satisfied customer. I wish you luck.
Lee
I have two books published with Tate and two audio books. I am pleased with Tate and the sales of my books. Yes, I would have loved receiving a $10,000. advance from a major publisher, or minor one for that mater, but I haven’t been offered that yet.Getting books published in this lifetime outweighed the $3,000.+ that I invested in my first book. It has paid off. I have much more than gotten my money back. My first book, Humorous Happenings in Holy Places, opened a second career for me as a Christian humorist. (I taught high school English for 35 yrs. before retiring in 2005.) Although I have received royalty checks from Tate, I sell most of my books through my speaking engagements (over 70 last year.) Tate published my second book, And the Angels Laughed, without an investment from me. Both books are still selling well and have opened other opportunities for me as a writer and Christian humorist. My decision to go with Tate was bathed in prayer and was the right choice for me. A few positives one might consider are –
Your book never goes out of print
You have help from their marketing dept. for life;just a phone call or email away
Any time you need press releases sent out, they will do it
The 60 percent you can make on books you sell yourself is not to be sneezed at
You are dealing with a Christian staff
You retain ownership of your material (right now I am writing a monthly column for a magazine; I draw material from my books for the articles.)
Their graphics department does a classy job with the covers.
If you have been to writing conferences lately, I’m sure you have learned how difficult it is for a first-time or unknown author to get published by the traditional publishing houses. Tate gives these authors a chance.
Although Tate has been the right choice for me, it might not be for everyone. The author must be willing to work at marketing his own work, with Tate’s help. The book must have audience appeal; if not, Random House couldn’t sell it. The writing business is hard. Few make it big, so don’t quit your day job – yet. Commit your work to the Lord and He will bless it.
You paid Tate $3000+ to print your book and they have the temerity to also take 40% of your sales? That doesn’t sound very Christian to me. It’s sounds like a rip-off. You would have to be bathed in prayer, and a healthy dose of self-delusion, to get into a deal like that.
You’re right, you should work hard, commit yourself to the Lord, and hope that He will look out for you, but don’t write a check to a vanity press just because they are Christians. I’m Christian and my faith and my values would prevent me from engaging in Tate’s business practices. I don’t like to speak ill of others, but Tate doesn’t seem very Christian to me. Soliciting money from a 14-year-old and making her think she has won a publishing contract when she hasn’t is reprehensible and goes against all my core values and those preached in my Church.
Thank you Barbara, I think you described Tate very fairly.
Lee, I respect your opinion and you can be done with me if you like. I’ve always held to the belief any opinion that cannot stand up under scrutiny needs to be reexamined. I agree, you’re very intelligent, but Tate offers things that printers and vanity press do not. Your unwillingness to see that is your problem not my delusion.
Regarding the “Christian” thing; since when is making a profit unchristian? What does that have to do with anything? Why is it a scam? Even if Lee was right and they were a vanity press what would be wrong with that?
I went to Dictionary.com and looked up the word “Scam”. It means: 1. a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle. –verb (used with object) 2. to cheat or defraud with a scam.
So if Tate does 100% of what they promise to do, how is that a scam? If a 14 year old wants to be published with a Random House, then submit it and see what happens; nobodies swindling a 14 year old out of her life savings. If the parents wanted to invest the money into Tate for their daughter, she would have a book in her hands within a year at 1/3 the price of most vanity presses. How many 14 year olds can claim that? Will she, or even myself sell 5000 copies? Maybe, maybe not, but it’s a risk I’m willing to take.
I laid out 14 questions to ask. So ask them of the publishers you contact, follow your gut and do what you think best. If you don’t think the questions are irrelevant then ignore me as an idiot. Either way, do what you think best. This whole Tate bashing thing going on reminds me of “one issue voters”. They’re not intelligent enough to see the whole picture, or maybe it just scares them to look, so they make their entire decision on one issue: abortion or gays rights or the war. It’s the same with Tate. If you’re a one issue writer, and the up front investment is your issue, then go somewhere else.
Lonnie,
Hey, if you’re happy giving Tate your money, I’m not going to try to talk you out of it. I do think your views on publishing are naive and uninformed…but your desperate attempts to try and cast Tate as a publisher betray your desire to be taken seriously as a “published” author, which won’t happen with a vanity press. I won’t debate you on these points again. However, I think Bethany is right. Here is the email I got that prompted her ire:
“My daughter (14 years old) recently submitted (through her school) a children’s book that she wrote. Surprisingly, she received a contract to publish her book from Tate Publishing. However, they are asking us to invest almost $4,000.”
In my opinion, that is dishonest. They are offering the girl a “contract” in the same way that a Ford dealer offers customers a new car. It was wrong of the school to submit her work to a vanity press (was the school getting a kick-back?) and wrong of Tate to make the girl think she’d won a contract. What she won was a sales pitch. I think *that* is one of the things that struck Bethany as “unChristian.” I just call is sleazy.
Lee
What % of manuscripts does Tate accept? 1%? 50%? I think that can be a good clue for people trying to claim they are a legitimate publisher.
I’d guess for four grand they’d accept the phonebook in no particular order.
All of the rederick is great..but how about some real information so that those of us who want legitimate info on becoming published can begin the process of weeding out great v. good publishers. No one has given any references of who works, how much or anything!
The word is “rhetoric.” Learning to spell is the first step towards publication.
You can find out who the good publishers are by walking into a bookstore and see what’s stocked on the shelves. Look at the spines of the books on the shelves for the names of the publishers. You know the obvious great ones…Random House, Harper Collins, Penguin Putnam, Doubleday, Dell, Pinnacle, Scribners, William Morrow, Simon & Schuster, etc. Write down the names of the publishers you don’t recognize and look them up in the Writers Market and on-line.
Lee,
Alls cool man. I like you. But sometimes you remind me of my wife, she only argues when she’s right too!
So I’m gonna walk away from this site for a while, and every 3 months I’ll come back and report what’s happening with my book and with Tate (Royalties, TV and radio spots, etc.), but I won’t comment on anybodies replies. This way we keep it civil. Furthermore, people can see for themselves. If you never hear from me again, then it’s a good sign that Tate failed and they’re a scam and I’m an idiot, but if you hear from me, and lifind that my experiences are similar to Barbara’s above, then make up your own mind, because somebodies not being entirely honest. Then you need to ask yourself “Why?”.
I’ll give an update within the next month or so when royalty check come out. To date I’ve sold 200 books since the first of the year. We hit the bookstores Feb16. If you google my name you can follow it as well.
Interesting comments: I actually went to Tate after reading their philosophy on piblishing,i.e. type of works they would publish, and because they requested an investment from the author which I felt to be justifiable considering the actual work they would invest.They have kept their word and have done a great amount of work for me. I have just had two successful Borders booksignings. I never expected to get this far and without their help I would not have, the clutter is just too great. So far I have only good words for Tate and their staff and the quality of the book published, paper used, cover art work, etc.etc. have been good.
Hi,
I researched for two years about selfpublishing. A vanity publisher will NOT let you use your own ISBN number. Until last year, only publishers could buy ISBNs from RR Bowker (The ONLY source for ISBNs) Now, Bowker sells personal ISBNs to individuals. Go to bowker.com. Email them you would like one ISBN. Cost: $125.00 plus $25.00 for a bar code. Or you can go to selfpublishing.com and buy one (on sale for $99.95, including bar code). OR, you can start your own publishing co. and buy 10 ISBNs for $250.00 plus a $29.95 one-time charge. That’s what I did. I published through selfpublishing.com. They won’t publish you unless you own your ISBN. They won’t “assign” one to you. Yes, I paid to have my first book published, a fraction of what Iuniverse or other vanitys charge. I’m all over the internet and listed with Ingram, Baker & Taylor, Barnes & Noble etc.That cost $49.95 @ selfpublishing.com. I don’t work for them. They tell the truth about vanity publishers candidly. Their monthly email newsletter is priceless. If you don’t own the ISBN, your book will be forever tied market-wise to the publisher that “assigned” you an ISBN. I’m beginning to do workshops to help first-time authors get published without getting ripped off.
One thiing that hasn’t been mentioned hear is the fact that after you have sold 500 copies of your book, you receive your initial author’s contribution back. I have recently signed with Tate and can verify that they are legitimate. They have won awards for Christian publishing.
“Authors Contribution” is a fancy way of saying “what you paid to be published.” Read the fine print, Toby. The rebate offer also depends on how much you paid. Besides, since very few Tate titles ever sell 500 copies, and rarely to anyone but the author and his or her family, it’s a safe offer for them to make. It’s another way to seduce the unwary, the gullible, and the stupid…and not very Christian of them.
I really am a little distrubed by the blogs here about Tate Publishing and I noticed that the majority of them were posted several years ago. Could it be that they have improved their rep since that time? While researching publishers including Tate I went to some of the major on line bookstores and typed in the keyword publisher and then the name. I was surprised to see that on many of them Tate Publishing had pages of books listed. (e.g. Christianbooks.com) Being a Christian I believe that all things work together for good to those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. And what the enemy intends for evil the Lord will turn around for good. So with that said I believe that if person decides to go with Tate Publishing and has faith and a deep relationship with the Lord it will be possible to be a success. No matter which route a person takes whether it be self publishing traditional publishing vanity etc. If you want to be a success but have little,or no fame, first you must be willing to not trust in man but in God. Then allow Him to direct you in your endeavor and toward the publisher, agent or technique that is right for you. I understand that Some of those writing here are well known published authors and some are only aspiring to be,but what has worked well for one may not work for another. God has a million ways to allow a person to succeed all you need is one.
The Tate Report: (As promised)
My book hit the stores Feb 16, 2008. I’m pretty much an unknown author, so take that into account as well.
As of April 30, 2008:
-Total Books sold: 181
-Total Royalties: $185
-Aprils Royalty: $143
-4 book signings
-2 TV spots
-1 trade magazine
-2 newspapers
Granted at this rate it’ll take me a long time to sell 5000! So I won’t be getting my investment back anytime soon. But, what kind of royalties does kinko’s pay anyway?
Lonnie
FYI.
For all the bad press Tate gets on this site and the praise that goes with a literary agent. You may want to check out this sight before picking an agent. The sharks in that water don’t look any friendlier.
http://www.sfwa.org/BEWARE/agents.html
Your book has been out since February. So far you have sold 181 copies and made $185 dollars (and how many of those books were “sold” to you, your family, and your friends?). Those are absolutely pitiful numbers, especially considering that it cost you thousands of dollars to get your book printed by these hucksters. It’s pathetic. And you are still touting Tate? You are either delusional or just plain stupid.
How are your numbers doing there big guy? Who are you published with? Give me something to compare it with.
Hey there Tom boy!
I went out to Amazon and typed your name in, and you know what came up? NOTHING!
Exactly what are you using to compare numbers to? If you’re comparing me to Lee, then yeah, I’m pathetic. If you’re comparing me to you, well it appears the subject matter may up for debate.
Am I delusional or stupid? Probably a bit of both. But to go down in flames appears to be a better way to go than someone who stands safely outside the fire.
You got all the answers big guy; now go make it happen and show the rest of us how its done. To try and fail is no disgrace, but to never try and only talk? Now that is stupid.
I can give you something to compare it with…my worst performing book, which I SOLD, without an agent, to a small publisher with limited retail distribution. I received a $2000 advance against royalties and the hardcover sold about 3000 copies in one year, roughly 250 copies a month, earning me a subsequent royalty check of about $1700 beyond my advance. There have been more sales in the years since, but the numbers are so small (and so are the royalties), that it’s not really worth tabulating. I consider the book a commercial failure, even though I earned money from the venture.
By comparison, you PAID thousands of dollars to be “published” and have sold 181 copies in three months. Your portion of those sales is $185.
That’s horrible. Actually, it’s worse than horrible, because you still have to sell thousands of copies before you earn back your INVESTMENT, much less actually begin to make a PROFIT.
Lee
I’m not published. And neither are you. You paid to have your book printed by a vanity press.
I’m also not a writer and, I suspect, neither are you, or you wouldn’t have had to pay thousands of dollars to get your work “in print.”
Lee,
I appreciate your input. I didn’t think it was all that good, but having never done this before, I had no idea what to expect.
I’ve found a couple literary agents I’m looking at: Ethen Ellenberg Literary Agency out of New York and a Steven Laube. I’m not sure about this Steven guy though. He seems legit based upon his submission guidelines, but he’s got links to a bunch of places that are getting bad press. So I’ll keep looking. I went out to the AAR and got a list of names.
I figure I’ll try your way this time and see what happens.
Thanks for your feedback. We may not agree, but I do appreciate it.
As for tomboy? Whatever…
Lee,
I was thinking about what you said, and I don’t think we’re comparing apples to apples. I’m a Data Analyst and for tomboy’s benefit, that means I analyze data.
The past couple blogs have put some data on the table.
-Yours $3700 for the first year.
-Mine $740 ($185 x 4 to compare year for year).
At first glance, your commercial failure puts mine to shame. But we’re still not comparing apples to apples.
Do fiction and nonfiction have the same audience? People buy fiction for the entertainment value, people buy nonfiction for the intellectual value. We’ve all heard the adage that American’s read at an 8th grade level. So clearly the audiences are different.
As I look at your books to the right of this page, would it be reasonable to compare your “Monk” series with your “Successful writing for Television”? They may both be books, but their audiences are radically different.
I’m assuming the book you mentioned was a fiction. Mine is nonfiction on the subject of homelessness. How many people really care about that topic? When’s the last time you bought a book on homelessness? Now, that doesn’t mean you don’t care, or that you won’t flip a dollar into some guys cup as you pass by. But to buy a book and invest your time to read is an intellectual endeavor and the audience is very small. If the audience were huge, the problem would be solved. But it’s not, society proves my point. If you 1 in a 100 people who were considered my audience then by COMPARISON you actually need a multiplier. 740 x 100 would put them at the same level. Is $74,000 a commercial failure?
However, I do have that little $4000 fee to answer for don’t I? This may be difficult for some people to grasp, but in my job I do fine. I don’t write for money, at least not this book. The next one I will to see what I can do, and I will take your advice and go your route. But, this book isn’t about money, it’s about a cause. That’s a much different sell than fiction, or even most nonfiction if we’re truthful.
In fact, nobodies even heard of me. I’m not a Lee Goldberg. But there are things people have heard of, such as the United Way or the Salvation Army or Union Gospel Mission. I’m thinking if I donated what measly royalties I am getting to them and get their endorsement of the book, then it might sell better, and I might make my investment back from Tate and move on with other endeavors.
What I have learned from you, is that it’s the publishers job to do the marketing, not mine. In that regard, though Tate has done everything I expected, my expectations were relatively low to begin with due to my ignorance of the market. What I have found is that the Tate staff are friendly and very helpful, BUT they don’t take the lead in marketing. They meet the low expectations of their clients, and thus if we remain with low expectations we are satisfied.
I probably will not bend over and let Tate have another chance at my next manuscript based upon what I’ve seen of their marketing. But for this time, I will be cordial and do all that I can for a cause, not a dollar. The money I spent to get published, I don’t look at as a waste, because it has led me to consider other things of more value than money.
Thanks Lee,
Lonnie
Lee,
I’ve been looking into agents and it appears that there are minor differences with each of them regarding their requirements and process for submission. Thus making a cookie cutter approach not real productive.
I’m getting the sense that a cookie cutter template might a good way to organize my thoughts, but never to submit it to an agent in that way. But I should customize each submission to the agent. Would that be your sense as well?
I realize this is probably a very stupid thing for me to be asking, but sometimes I over analyze something to a point that I just need simplicity to bring me back to reality.
Is this the general process?
STEP 1 One page query letter to an agent.
STEP 2 Submission should include: One page Synopsis, chapter summaries and outline, approx 50 pages or the first 3 chapters.
The more I look into this whole agent thing the more sense it makes to me. I thank you for bearing with me during the learning curve and tolerating my ignorance. Even if my next manuscript were to be accepted by Tate without any further fee, I’m not sure I would go with them simply based upon what I’ve seen of their marketing. That appears to be the major factor for me. New authors get so excited about being published they don’t give enough consideration to the marketing abilities of the publisher.
Thanks, Lonnie
Just to let some of you know not that I am defending any of the companies listed above. But if you do your research you will find that the above listed authors that you claim never paid for their first book (JK Rowling, JR Tolkien and Stephen King) I would have you know that JR Tolkien died a VERY pour man and only his family got money from his publishing. On top of that your Right JK Rowling was poor and poor for a very long time until her later books when she had to re-sign in order to get more money. You can actually see the same thing happening to lots of authors who didn’t ‘Pay’ to have their book published. None of them received money instantly most of them didn’t get a lot of money and a lot of royalties until later in their lives.
If you use an agent you will pay him when you get paid therefor making less money in the future. If you sell your book you typically won’t get royalties so if your happy with a flat rate then wait for one of them to offer you money.
In the end Either way ALL PUBLISHING COMPANIES will make money off of you. You just need to decide on which one your going to give your money to and how your going to give your money to them. Some pay on the seed and some pay on the tree.
So are you going to pay a flat fee or are you going to pay 10-15% of your income you pick because you either get an agent or you self-publish your not going to get published without one or the other.
I am a published author with Tate Publishing. Yes, I paid the $3,995 requested and have never had a nano-second of regret!!! Tate runs their business in the black. The ‘editing/publishing’ part is just the tip of the iceberg! I took the bull by the horns so to speak and I’ve been actively marketing my book. This being done on my part along with what Tate does for its authors will insure me that my book is a success! Hey! If your name is Paris Hilton or Britney Spears and you wrote a book that contained nothing more than ‘Da, dah, dah, dah, dud.” You’d probably have every well known named publisher chasing you down to sign with them. It’s ALL about recognition and the money!!! Tate is WISE in providing the opportunity for unknown authors to get recognized. They don’t offer contracts to everyone. They receive over 60k manuscripts per year and only offer to publisha single digit percentage. If you’re asked to sign with Tate…then considered yourself BLESSED! I’m giving my next manuscript to Tate as well and this time go with a hard cover edition. They’ve been absolutely wonderful…every step of the way! I believe in myself and my talents and Tate gave me the opportunity! I wasn’t looking for an easy ride to the bank on someone’s shirt tail! To the woman that posted earlier about her 14 yr old daughter receiving a contract from Tate Publishing, I say, go for it!!! Tate believes enough in your daughter’s talent to make the offer…do you? When you’ve sold that 5,001 book, YOU RECEIVE YOUR $3,995 BACK! What’s so disasterous about that?
As I’ve now read through the postings on this site, one thing has become perfectly clear. Stupid people ENJOY their stupidity! They’re not open to ANY view other than their own. They don’t seek out knowledge or information to increase their awareness! They obviously enjoy some type of ‘comfort’ feeling from their angst.
Tate publishing is NOT a vanity press or POD. They’re a company that (Christian or otherwise)runs their operation in the black! They own everything they use. There’s no chance that their employee’s won’t be paid. My book was delived to me BEFORE the expected time. It’s professionaly done,and the cover has been a hit with everyone. They’re selling as fast as I can deliver them AND Tate never charges shipping to any of their authors in the continental US! My book is scheduled for its official release in Nov 08 but I’m making money NOW! AND the books that I’m selling count into the 5,000 mark that I’m reaching for. Tate has answered every one of my questions in a timely manner and offered their experience and knowledge because…they WANT ME TO SUCCEED! You, the one reading this post…you don’t have to use Tate, there are plenty of publishers available. Some more honest than others. I will defend my experience with Tate Publishing and those that work there for their honesty and hard work.
Just like American Idol…everyone thinks they can sing! If you watch the wanna-be’s, it’s entertaining yet YOU know from listening to them that they have NO talent. Well, that’s what Tate does, they weed out the undesirables from those that have talent…then they ask that, FOR THE FIRST BOOK ONLY…put your money where your mouth is! I JUST received my free books from Tate (and within the week received more that I ordered) I only have a few books left and will have to order even more before my scheduled local book signing. (this is set up by me – Tate sets the appointments for the big booksellers like B&N etc) Everyone seems to be looking for the TV version of being published where the huge advancement check arrives in the mail with a contract to publish with a big name out of NYC. Tate is offering an alternative to that. Realize that completing anything can be accomplished in many different ways. Tate may not fit your bill…Good, then go somewhere else but for God’s sake, STOP bad mouthing a business you don’t hold all the facts on! My book is successful because it’s about something that everyone can relate to…disfunctional families and how people can become a ‘victor’ rather than staying a ‘victim’. I wouldn’t expect to be selling great numbers of books if I had written about the leg strength and deformities of japanese beatles.
” Yes, I paid the $3,995 requested and have never had a nano-second of regret!!! Tate runs their business in the black.”
Of course they do, because you are assuming all of the risk. They aren’t in the business of selling books. They are in the business of selling printing services to writers. And if you actually manage to sell a book, they a percentage of the sales, too. How can they lose? Only their writer/customers do. They are the very definition of a vanity press.
“They’re selling as fast as I can deliver them AND Tate never charges shipping to any of their authors in the continental US! My book is scheduled for its official release in Nov 08 but I’m making money NOW!”
How many copies have you sold? How much have your $4000.00 investment have you made back? How close are you to selling 5000 copies and getting your initial fee refunded by Tate? What percentage of Tate’s customers sell 5000 copies of their books? My guess is very, very, very few…
I’m glad you are happy with the service you have received. But you haven’t had a book published by a publishing company. You are the customer of a vanity press/self-publishing company that’s financial model is primarily based on selling services to writers, not books to the public.
Lee
Tate has moved into the music business as well, and when it comes to music tate does the same thing. I have been in the music business, in Nashville, and I will tell you that the Top agencies and labels all get back the money spent on a record before you get paid. Only one or two may get star treatment, and I mean CMA winner types. Even they pay back. It cost $20,000 to just get studio time. An album cost 5o,ooo to 250,000 depending, and if they don’t recoupe all of it, you will owe it even though you signed and they don’t charge up front. Tate will take your music, and they take about 1 out of 400 submissions and will start by creating a 1st record and getting radio air play and personal appearances, (granted they start slow, but they do all the work and stick to a plan that gets going a step at a time. Step two is stores etc. If things go well then they will not charge for the next album, and you will not owe. This may sound nuts on their part, but they make money if you do. They are only charging 4000.00, less then 2000 for some diamonds, and giving it a go with you. A label will do the same and sign 1 out of 400. It is a gamble as they don’t charge, but if you don’t sell, you Pay big. They will not take a chance that a tate Publishing will, even for way more money. I am talking about Soney, MCA, etc. etc. Linda Ronstate took years to pay for her debt to a label she left. A very top lable. There is a place for the Tates in the Music industry, Maybe more so than in book publishing, but this shows thay can get you started which much less of a gamble then any other, known label. Another thing is tate starts at 15% royalties and goes up to 50% depending on the type of sale. Label never give more then 12%, and that is if you are very well known. Most artist I know are getting 7-10%.
My name is Ryan Tate and I am the President of Tate Publishing. I wanted to take this opportunity to make sure you all were aware that we are available to answer any questions you may have. Tate Publishing is not the best fit for every author, but last year we only published 3.5 % of the manuscripts submitted for publication and we work with author in many different ways. We provide our authors with service, products and marketing that is truly second to none, especially for a first time author. If you have any questions please contact our offices at (405) 376-4900 or email us at info@tatepublishing.com. We would love to help. Also, check our our latest best seller, “From Pulling Weeds To Picking Stocks” it made it up to number 1 on Amazon.com and is being watch for the NY Times Bestsellers list.
Thanks,
Ryan Tate
President, Tate Publishing
http://www.tatepublishing.com
Ryan (if you are really Ryan),
We both know that being “number 1 on Amazon” means nothing and changes from hour to hour, if not minute-to-minute (at this moment, PULLING WEEDS is now #1500).
And in this case, the sales have little to do with the book itself, or Tate, and everything to do with the authors themselves and an endorsement from Rush Limbaugh.
Or as one Amazon reviewer put it:
Or as another reviewer put it:
Or as another reviewer put it:
How many of your titles get an on-air endorsement from Rush Limbaugh? I’m guessing this is the first.
How many of your books ever make back for the author their mid-to-high four figure investment? I’m guessing less than two percent, and I am being generous.
How many of your authors sell fewer than 500 copies? I’m guessing 95%, and again, I’m being generous.
And how much did you charge this poor kid to publish his book? Four thousand dollars? Seven thousand?
The fact that you are implying that the sales of this book an example of the typical performance of a Tate title is disingenuous and deceptive.
The bottom line is that you are a vanity press and you make your money primarily off of sales to authors, not sales to readers.
It’s bad enough that you take advantage of the desperation and gullibility of aspiring authors (and charge outrageously high fees) but you also prey on the dreams and aspirations of children, which is reprehensible. And you have the gall to do it while boasting that you’re a company with strong Christian values.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Maxwell
Mark Levine, in the third edition of his excellent book THE FINE PRINT OF SELF-PUBLISHING, compares Tate to other vanity presses…and ranks it among the lowest of the low. Here’s one highlight:
Author Friendly Rating: While my book doesn’t have an “are you kidding me?” category, if it did, Tate would be the star. It says it invests $20,000 into each book and yet won’t tell you how or where. But it asks you as a “partner” to put up $4000 of it. Tate is misleading its authors when it calls itself a traditional publisher. No traditional publisher asks an author for $4000 […]it seems crazy to spend $4000 to self-publish a book.
From the Authors Guild:
Recently, a handful of POD publishers have been soliciting and “accepting” manuscripts at an astonishing rate and not requiring money up front to publish a book. They even offer what on its face apperas to be a relatively standard publishing agreement and sometimes agree to pay a nominal advance (eg one dollar). This has led writers — particularly novices– to think they are being published by bona fide trade publishers.
[…]They typically will not publish any copies other than those ordered at the authors discount. Apparently, the total number of books purchases for friends and relativesat the “special” author’s price by the presumably large number of people taken in by this scheme makes it a profitable venture for the ethically challenge.
[…]If you are still interested in proceeding in the hope that your publisher is bona fide, be sure to insert, in addition to the requirement that the book be published within a specified time period at the publisher’s sole expense, language stating tha the number of print-on-demand copies of the book initially published at the publisher’s expense “will not be less than ______ copies” (eg 500 or 1000). Language like this, as well as a good out-of-print clause, should flush out the intentions of the publisher and save you from a bad surprise.
Beware the “Term of License” Contract
In this month’s Authors Guild Bulletin, Mark L. Levine warns writers to be very wary of publishers offering a so-called “term of license” contract (signing you for seven to ten years with an option to renew) unless you are already…
The following comment is a myth:
“There are no big time publishers anywhere going to take a no-name, off the street to endorse them, and put up a ton a money, on someone they do not know.”
Don’t believe it. If you want to pay to have your book published, feel free. Tate is one of the vanity presses that will do that. But don’t believe that books are not published traditionally these days. What you have to do is work on your craft until you produce a book that is publishable. It’s work. But people (like me) do it all the time.
Not only is it a myth, it’s a stupid myth. This year three books by first-time authors cracked the bestseller lists — “Gargoyle” by Andrew Davidson, “The Little Book” by Seldon Edwards, and “The Story of Edgar Sawtelle” by David Wroblewski. All three were backed by huge ad campaigns.
All three of these authors were unknowns who were PAID by publishers…they did not PAY to be published.
That’s how it is done. Tate, and others like them, thrive off desperation and naivete.
Lee
I recently wrote a short childrens book and submitted it to several publishers, Tate included. Guess who called me to let me know how excited they were to publish my book? Tate. I too was very excited until the next day when I received the contract. All excitement drained from me within seconds. Upon seeing the “author investment requirement” I immediately started doing more research into the company. I admit that not fully researching the company was my mistake. If you are submitting your book for the first time do not make the same mistake I made. Do your research, take your time, and find the best fit for you. I declined their offer to print my book. Thank you Lee for all of your wisdom.
Audrey
My favorite author, Lawrence Block, opines that an author used to have to get rejected by 20 publishers or more before he/she got published. Now there AREN’T 20 publishers. So what’s a new writer to do?
The world is changing. I’ve got two manuscripts in play to agents, with no takers yet. Maybe I’ll get tired and self-publish, maybe not.
Hi. I’m a new author considering going with Tate Publishing. They’ve accepted my book but, as stated on their website, they will charge me $4000 if I sign the initial contract. Tate did say in an email they sent me that they do offer contracts without the fee. So I have two questions. Has anyone actually gotten rid of the “investment” into the novel? And also, how well does Tate Publishing actually market your book?
Don’t throw your money away, Paul. Read the previous comments here first.
Lee
“It has been a year since Lonnie Friesen’s book came out from Tate. I wonder how it did?”
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #2,381,016 in Books
Lee,
Well it’s been awhile and I thought I would give you and your readers an update on my current situation with Tate.
I’m understanding this a lot more now that I’m into it a ways. You’re absolutely right about Tate, and I apologize if I’ve ever said anything negative to you regarding your opinion of them. But I do think I understand what’s happened, and I can even explain it to people so they understand the trap that Tate lays for new authors.
In the beginnig I took great offense to Tate being called “self publishing” but here’s how the game is played.
First, remember they’re publishers, and their job is playing with words, and that’s how they catch you. Remember how Christ told his disciples not to swear an oath? That was because people who’s character cannot be trusted were saying stuff like, “God as my judge” or “I swear to God” as a way of bringing God into the picture to tip the scales in their favor. Tate does the same thing by saying they’re a “Christian” company. What does being Christian have to do with publishing? Nothing; other than the fact that they mention it because they cannot stand on Character alone. Here’s how they play the game.
$3980 investment insures Tate of your cooperation in the process. They say they’re investing $20K for their part. You have no reason to doubt so you accept it.
Tate will promise and fulfill on this:
1. Assign you to work with an editor.
2. Assign an artist to work with you.
3. Assign a marketing rep to work with you throughout the life of your book.
4. Get your book assigned a special bar code so it can be accessed through any book store in the country.
5. Get your book into the distribution centers.
6. Make sure that your book is accessed via the web on Amazon and any of a dozen others.
7. Send out press releases and complimentary copies of your book to the media.
8. In the end you will have a book to be proud of.
All of that is something that no Self Publisher will do, so you are hooked. But here’s where it gets techincal. In the contract as well as their marketing information they say that the marketing person will “Initiate” contact with book stores. now you and I understand that word to mean one thing, while Tate understands it to be another. Look the work up on Dictionary.com and you will find that it literally mean to “begin” or to “get going”. They make no promise to continue to initiate, but only to get it going. So indeed they will get it going for about 3-6 months. Then you will start to see that your marketing person is not “initiating” but “Assisting”.
Here is where you are virtually a self publisher now. you’ve already gotten this far into it, they got the ball rolling, you’ve recieved some small royalty checks, and now you must drive this bus home from here. They will help you, but they will NOT initiate anything from that point on. They are counting on you wanting your money back in order to work for nothing.
My marketing person told me, “I’m your marketing rep, not your publicist. I’m here to assist you.” That was when I realized that I got played on the old switcheroo word game. I comfused “Initiate” with “Initiative”.
So please forgive me if I have in any way crossed hairs with those of you in the past. If you do decide to go with Tate, please go with your eyes wide open. What they delivered was not without value, but it was deceptive in the fact that I thought initiative meant something else, and they truly did abide by the letter of the law on that one.
Next time I go through an agent. No exceptions.
-Lonnnie
Lee,
And to whoever may be reading this, I recieved an email from Trinity Tate a couple weeks ago saying that a prospective author requested to speak with me personally regarding my experience with Tate. I agreed and then connected.
After speaking with him on the phone for about 30-45 minutes I found out that he heard about me from this web site. I thought that was interesting. I steered him away from Tate based upon some of the advice I’ve received from Lee on this site as well as some of my recent experience with Tate over the past six months.
If anyone is interested, I would be happy to forward to them the emails I’ve received from Tate regarding my previous post, so that it’s not just my word, but that of the Tate staff themselves. I would also be open to discussing Tate with anyone interested. I will not say that Tate doesn’t serve a purpose, but I will help you to understand that purpose a bit more clearly before sending them any money. You need to know in advance what you’re getting into. Then if you decide to go with them, it’s your business. But let facts be the basis upon which you choose to accept or reject Tate. Don’t let your dreams become the substance of abuse. Because that is how Tate works.
Remember, you are not substance of one good work. Look at Lee for example and see the vast quantity of work he has done, and continues to do. If you’re a good writer, then you will be accepted by an agent and eventually a publisher. But some things just take time, so let it happen, let time play its part. Don’t rush to press by accepting something you’ll later regret.
Thanks Lee.
-Lonnie
Thank you. A stay-at-home mom who thought she might have a published book! Your blog is informative and helped me from making a big $4,000.00 mistake. I don’t have that kind of money and it would’ve taken a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul…
THANK YOU!!!!
I have done a lot of research into Tate and I dont think it is a “scam”. The reason you should slug it out and try to get noticed by an agent or a publisher is so that it will give you some indication of the “quality” and “potential” of your work. That process is the hard cold truth whether your work is good enough be read by lots of people. Tate is not “scaming” people they are simply providing a publishing service without a lot of credance as to whether it is “publishable” material. When I say publishible I mean that people will actually want to ready it. So it is all about expectation. If you want your book printed out, with a nice cover and it offered up to a few channels then Tate will do that for you. They are just not investing 100% into you the author. They say the are but for many reason also spelled out earlier they really are not. If your work is good it could pop with Tate publishing, but it probably could have eventually been published anyway if you stuck with it found and agent and a publisher. If it is bad it will languish along and you are out $4k but you will have a nice clean bound copy to hand to friends and family forever.
M Phannen makes a good point about having an end product that is something to be proud of. But you can get that through any self publishing company.
Calling Tate a scam is probably a bit too harsh I admit. I don’t believe Tate is out to scam anybody; but the reality is, most new authors know nothing about publishing, so what appears to be a legitimate offer appears very attractive. The fact that Tate refuses to call themselves a self publisher impresses the novice because they do offer much that self publishing companies do not. But in the end, you do pay for the publishing. I belive Tate realizes that getting published and being successful is difficult thing. Your 4K covers some of their expenses should the whole thing go south.
Tate would be excellent if you already had an established network within which to sell your book. That’s why they target the Christian market, because Christian’s are already part of an established market called the church, and most churches are part of some type of larger association. But if you don’t have that network in place, Tate wouldn’t a good fit. They plan on you selling your books, not in the book store, but in public speaking engagements at the church.
FYI: I recently did some looking into the Christian Writer’s Guild. It turns out they have a contest for first time authors. So I called them up and explained my situation with Tate. They said that self publishing companies did not exclude an individual from entering. So I mentioned Tate and they asked one question that summed it up. “Did you have to pay anything to get puclished?” The answer was obviously “yes”. They then told me I could enter the contest. I’ll be sending off my manuscript next week. The winner gets $20K advance on royalties and a guarenteed publishing contract with Tyndale House. It’s a long shot, I understand that, but nothing in this business is easy (or in life for that matter).
Bottom line about Tate… expect to do a lot more work than you realized. They will be there for you, but that might not mean exactly the same thing you think it means. Tate does have value, but that value is not the same thing as your perception, and that’s where you get caught. Tates not a scam, but your ignorance of the industry is your greatest liability, not Tate.
By the way, my book with Tate isn’t doing well at all. Perhaps it’s my fault. Maybe I’m not as good as I’d like to believe. Self deception can be pretty powerful. I spoke with Dr. Tate last May and we agreed on me trying to market my book in to churches. But I’ve been finishing up this manuscript for the Guild and not really pursuing it much. I’m chaulking the whole up to a lesson learned. It requires more of me than I’m capable of giving. I already have a full time job and I just don’t have any more time to devote to seomthing that only gives me a $16 check every three months.
As of this writing, I have not submitted my manuscript to any publisher. I have contacted several and the one I was most impressed with was “Tate Publishing”. From the information, I am wondering now if I may have misread the information I have seen and heard.
Yes, there is a “Fee” and it was clearly printed in their website, in the neighborhood of $4000.00.
I have not seen a contract but I have been informed and it is on the website, you retain ownership of your book and can market at your will.
(A) Tate only publishes in English and only markets in the United States, leaving a very large area to market.
(B) Tate also allows you to market in the United States.
They also clearly state that, in some circumstances, they will wave the writer’s portion of the process. This is determined as to the salability of the manuscript. I can understand this, it would be beneficial to all concerned.
Yes, they do offer advances, once again, clearly writen in their website. Of course, this would be at their descretion, I don’t blame them since most advances are never recaptured by the publisher. I also would expect a contract upon the acceptance of an advance.
Not only is this information on the website but I have gone over this with my agent, by phone, and there is no conflict.
My question is this: Are these inputs actually legitimate or are they false accusations from individuals that either:
(A) Could not afford the fee?
(B) someone manuscript that was rejected for what ever reason?
From my view point, I see no reasons for these claims. No proof is submitted.
John Kendall
John,
If your agent sees no problems with Tate, then you need a new agent…preferably one with some actual publishing savvy.
Tate’s business practices are no secret. Anybody who researches Tate online, or reads the analysis of their contracts in Mark Levine’s book “The Fine Print of Self Publishing” and *still* pays the $4000 deserves exactly what they are getting.
(You can get a surprisingly candid dissection of Tate’s business practices from Dogear Publishing, one of their MUCH, MUCH cheaper competitors:
http://www.dogearpublishing.net/whydogearcomparison_tate_publishing.aspx?gclid=CKiTotGYhp0CFR4Hagodn3lIbQ )
Lee
John,
Lee’s correct. It is true that Tate will put everything on their website and give a pretty good sales presentation. Much beter than most self publishing. But they will also clearly tell you they are NOT a self publishing company. Yet everything you encounter past the first six months is clearly self publishing. You will do all the work.
There contract is OK, I have one. But you must understand that words have meanings, and they are in the business of words. What you mean verses what they mean is not the same thing. It’s like talking to a cult. You may both say Jesus, but they clearly have a different Jesus in mind. Likewise, Tate will tell you that they initiate the marketing, and their contract even says that that is the purpose for the $4000; but they clearly have a different definition of the word initiate. After the first six months, it will be you who does all of the initiating.
Lee, could you give us a brief deliniated list of what a real publisher will do in terms of marketing? Because for me, that was why I choose Tate. But based upon experience I would never choose them again.
-Lonnie
I have a nunber of self-published books in the market. My publishers have been very good. The demand for one of the books is fairly high in the UK but the cost of individual shipping for buyers drives up the cover cost each of which already stands at $19.99 and $29.99 respetively for the paperback and hard back. The bookshops appear to have a bias in favor of traditionally published books.
I am thinking of publishing my next book which is now ready, with Tate, but from what I read in the blogs, I am constrained to ask this question: Is Tate generally accepted as a traditional publisher?
Ositadimma
“In the agent scenario, I am MAKING MONEY. In the Tate scenario, I AM LOSING IT. The agent gets paid when I get paid. I am not taking ANY financial risk.” Both my Uncle and my Aunt have published several books through publishers that require an initial investment including Tate publishers. In my Uncle’s case he has published several books and made a very substantial profit on two titles which continue to pay major returns. Did this happen with every title? No. What made the difference? He was able to form a large network and fill a specific niche in which there was a need. His writing was clear, concise and well-written. He was already well established in the ministry and many pastors have utilized his books to teach and reach others. He decided the publishers that required an initial investment also provided the best opportunity for him to reach his goals as a successful author. He did have one title published by a major publisher which sold over 100,000 copies but paid him a much smaller royalty fee then the investment publishers like Tate. There are good and bad publishers. You just have to find who is credible and the best fit for you. Not all investment publisher’s are scams.
ok lonnie, so how is ” not without value” equal a scam.. if your book is good it sells , you make money they make money..that IS the american way..plus you got a feather under your cap for a BIGGER publishing company that normally wouldnt even read your stuff without a 4000 entertainment lawyer on your side ..can all of you say : no unsolicited admissions”..
I have a music deal with them that basically said all the same things except it is completely non exclusive and the most artist friendly deal one could want..the same things above apply to me if its good everybody wins..
what all you people don’t realize is the fat cat exec’s have been financially raping musician’s and authors for decades…what’s not the american way is, a label overcharging you for every technical part and making you owe them million’s and signing your next 5 books/albums away at them getting millions and you gettin thousands..those days are on their way out…and who said a christian can’t make money.. you all must be liberal’s and yea that’s a bad word……
i recently recieved a contract from tate. Just as everyone else, the $4,000 is a stinger. But if you believe in your work and it’s financial potential, $4,000 is a drop in the bucket considering what tate is willing to invest. I have no doubt that my book will bypass the 5,000 mark, i’m anticipating sales far past 100,000. I’m shooting for 1,000,000,000 in sales. I’m a first time author but i’m believe in my work. I’m very confident in it’s potential. So i plan to come up with the 4,000 and fulfil my dream, they are giving me a chance and i’m giving them the opprotunity of a lifetime through my work, but i will have my eyes open. So if you think they are a scam then you must really not believe in your work. Through research i’ve learned that this is a tough buisness, you really don’t know who to trust. There are negatives and positives on every front, So if you believe in what you have written, do your research and go with your heart.
Somebody help me!!! I have written a manuscript/book. The first of at least a ‘trilogy’and a possible ‘pre-quel’. Every publisher wants $$$. Would there be anyone out there that would know of any publishers that I could ‘partner’ with providing they like my manuscript?
Thank You, Richard
I spent the last two days reading this blog. It seems lopsided.
It might be that a good author will do well with other traditional publishers, but to say that Tate is a self publisher is a stretch. They invest 4x what the author does. It’s in the contract! I admit that I am new to this, but it seems like a self publisher would not be making investments in a book they didn’t read.
The most important part is that once you fulfill your contractual obligations, you can inform Tate in writing that you wish to cancel the contract, and it will happen. That is in the contract as well. If someone starts with Tate and doesn’t like what they’re getting, isn’t it possible to get a more aggressive distributor later?
I may be completely ignorant, but I think that Tate is satisfying a need that other traditional publishers are not. They are taking risk with new authors. I’m a new author. I am happy that they are taking a risk with me.
I have researched J.K. Rowling and learned that she spent six years on her first Harry Potter. She finally obtained a means to hire an agent. To make a long story short, her first agent seemed not to be her last.
My whole thought is this. Perhaps there are those lucky moments that an unknown stumbles onto the door of opportunity after years of seeking where to even begin to look. An agent seems like a good way of acquiring this knowledge. However, you are dealing with a middle person and still more than likely have an investment.
I too have been one offered a contract by Tate. I have not signed but have not ruled out the possibility. Perhaps I too will take six years before getting published, however I realize that hard work and diligence can pay off. It did for J.K.
I am searching for concrete evidence and information. We live in the great nation that allows freedom of information and everyone has an opinion. I too have mine, however, I am one that should live in the ‘Show Me State’ and not one that believes all the tall Texas tales of where I reside. However, them tall tales sure are entertaining! I Love Texas!
Your first link does not work at all. In fact Faithworks.com and Faithworks.org appear to be available for sale so it looks like it’s not a real company. The second is all in Chinese or Japanese so it may be legit or not. I did check into Tate Publishing and the FAQ they sent to me in an e-mail had a couple serious errors that a good editor would have caught. All in all, I can’t say they are crooked but I choose to NOT deal with them based on what I have seen.
Oh, and this is not the only place I’ve seen complaints about Tate Publishing. Every place has someone who claims to be an author who is happy with Tate but when I try to follow up (like looking for that person in Tate’s list of published books), I can’t find anything. Makes me suspicious at the very least!
I will be looking elsewhere. Anyone else have good ideas?
Every author was a first time author – the first time. Just think about it.
Story I hear was she was not really poor. She was an out of work school-teacher, that much is true – so people think she was poor. But her husband was making 6 figures so I wouldn’t say she was poor.
The 6 year figure is questionable too. How much of that time was spent actually writing the book?
Regardless, she did NOT pay a cent to get her books published.
Baby Einsten – Clark’s first video (she had to produce herself) cost $15,000 – she sold her company to Disney…sometimes it pays to self publish.
Who is the best publisher for a new author?
One that doesn’t charge you thousands of dollars to “publish” your book. You will get screwed. Tate isn’t taking risks…they are taking money from you.
It’s beyond stupid now for anyone to pay to be published…by Tate, Authorhouse, or any of the other vanity presses out there… not when you can get on the Kindle, iPad, etc. absolutely free…or you can go to Lulu or Blurb and have your book printed in trade paperback for free as well.
Lee
Jamie,
I am willing to bet that you will sell no where near enough copies to “earn back” anywhere near the $4000 that you are flushing down the toilet. You definitely will not sell 100,000 copies with Tate.
You say your eyes are open, but if that was true, you wouldn’t be writing a check to Tate. You’d know that it’s possible now to publish FOR FREE, that you don’t need Tate or their ilk.
It has been seven months since you signed with Tate… what do you have to show for it?
Lee
I just received a contract from Tate today. I send them a ms for a children’s book and they “congratulated” me on having my book excepted. I was thrilled to say the least that a first time author would have this opportunity. I must say this blog is very informative and so glad that I read the blogs before signing with Tate. I don’t believe that I will sign the contract. I may never have a book published (which would make me sad) but I will have my $4K that would be hard for me to hand over to the Tates. I wondered how I was going to come up with the money anyway. Now I know — I won’t have to. If the Lord wants me to have my book published then He will lead me to a rep publishing co. Thanks so much for helping me not to make a huge mistake. Jo
I agree with this article. I’m one of those desperate, naive, and gullible ones who paid them the $4,000 which I’ll probably never see again! For me at least, it’s been a very expensive mistake.
Hello. Somewhat curious about Lulu-publishing here. Can anyone (who’s already published with them) give their means of information about who they offer to sell your books through, online or otherwise? I checked out their site, and I’ve read so many people ranting that their service in publishing YOUR book is, like, totally free…lol that’s funny. Because it’s Not. I went through their site and read everything. It isn’t free, but, it looks like it won’t cost you ten grand, either. So not bad. I’m curious about them because their book-jackets and books ingeneral look tasteful, and am just wondering (besides their own website) who else they let sell your books to. Anyone? I don’t wanna hear about maybe’s or if’s or Ya know What I think, Marge? I just want published authors of Lulu, to give their actual, factual, info and reconmidations on this matter. Thanks-ya!
Hello Lee…
I stumbled on this through AW and just wanted to chime in on Tate. I actually did have a book published with them and ended up having the contract terminated and received my ENTIRE investment back. I had the unfortunate experience of 6 people I knew all submitting MS to Tate. They were ALL accepted and I thought, “well how am I in the top 3% when all these other people I know are being accepted?” My husband did the math and the chances of that happening were @ .000000000793 Better chances of winning the lottery. The other thing I started to question was the fact that no one ever answered my question ,”How many people actually sell 5,000 books to get that author investment check back?” Third thing was I had a marketing paper right in front of me that said My books would be available in stores across the nation. That MEANS, your store will be available for someone to walk into the bookstore and ORDER it. My husband and I approached Dr Tate with or “findings” and we were offered our money back. Dr. Tate also told us after several times asking that about 15% actually sell 5000 books and then proceeded to ask me if I still would’ve gone with Tate had I known that. I’ve done nothing but wish success to the people that have gone with Tate. For me it will be a learning experience to use for my future endeavors. I understand the difference between TRUE traditional publishers, self-publishers, vanity presses.. etc and I feel certain about the paths I choose for the future. Good luck on all endeavors to you all. BTW, my husband decided to write something in 5 minutes just to see what happened and shocking… it was accepted. Dr Tate also told me that with knowing so many people that were accepted, it means I just must know a lot of good writers. Again…. using it as a learning experience. Take care
They WON’T lose money because you paid them 4k. Do you really think they’re breaking their backs trying to promote your book? It costs little to print the book, nothing to do it electronically, you can link the books up with amazon via createspace, for heavens sake!
Publishers DO PAY YOU! It may not be much; it might be ten dollars for a quarter, what they’re not doing is charging you.
Going small press is a lot better than going Tate!
Or how about saving that $4k and hiring yourself your own editor and buying facebook ads to promote the book you are self-publishing, because I bet you’ll sell more books yourself if you actually care about your book than Tate will!
Well you need to get your facts straight with Publish America you own the copyright not them.
Do you work for Tate?
Here’s something interesting…
I just did a little research on Amazon.com. The book, “Amen! A Simple Guide to Self-Marketing Your Christian Book,” written by Leon Mentzer and published by Tate Publishing, is ranked HIGHER on Amazon’s Bestsellers Rank than Lee Goldberg’s “The Man With The Iron-On Badge”, published by CreateSpace.
Additionally, Mr. Mentzer’s book was first published in September of 2007 while Mr. Goldberg’s book was first published in January of 2011.
So, apparently, not only does Tate Publishing successfully market the books they publish as promised, but they obviously continue to market them years later, earning Mr. Mentzer’s book a higher bestsellers rank than a relatively newer published book by a veteran author of numerous books and television shows.
My husband was also offered a publishing contract with Tate Publishing. After seeing what Tate’s marketing has done for Mr. Mentzer’s book vs. what Mr. Goldberg’s marketing company has done for his book, it appears the $4,000 is a bargain. Once my husband becomes an established author with numerous books written to his credit, like Mr. Goldberg, maybe he too can afford to entrust the job of marketing his books to a company that is subpar to Tate’s demonstrated success, just to prove Mr. Goldberg’s point that “A legitimate, reputable agent doesn’t charge ANY fees at all.”
Of course, there are legitimate agents/marketing companies out there that do not charge a first-time author any fees. But, just like I just learned in the case of Leon Mentzer (with Tate Publishing) and Lee Goldberg (not with Tate Publishing), you usually get what you pay for.
Is it true that books published by Tate are only available online? I saw someone say this on another site and then noticed on B&N and Borders that all their publications were either “online only” or “Out of Stock”. My husband’s manuscript was accepted by Tate but some of the stuff I’m reading, such as this, is concerning – plus the $4000, that seems like such a large amount of money!
Judy, you ignorant slut, Lee’s book actually came out several years before Mr. Mentzer’s book. What you’re looking at is a new re-issue. And Lee’s marketing company was…well, Lee.
Hi Sarah, I just submitted my book to Tate and in 6 days I got an E-mail saying I was approved and they are sending me a contract overnight UPS. I sold Timeshare for 7 years and that is a slam bam close. They wanted the 4K right away and sent payment plan if I couldn’t do the 4K. And what I am reading I am passing on doing any business with them.
Why did you switch from Concordia to Tate. If you already had a good relationship with them.
In today’s world, when you can publish a book FOR FREE using Amazon DTP and Barnes & Noble’s PubIt (for ebooks) or CreateSpace (for trade paperback), you would have to be certifiably insane or suffering a serious brain injury to pay Tate $4000 to “publish” you.
Lee
I am an author through Tate. I Don’t Want to be a Pirate. I won’t say they ripped me off because I read everything on line and still took the risk. but my hopes did not happen.
The book is tiny Although the illustrator did a great job. the book is also on Audio which was done very well the second time.
They got me two book signings. One at a small toy store which I told them about, I left after an hour because no one showed, and the others were at hastings books which are not even in the city I live in. I would have driven 2 hours to get there and those stores told me that I could not read my book to kids, just sit and sign if anyone wanted me to, so I opted not to. That was all they did to help me promote my books. I get emails with suggestions about how I can promote my book but I thought that the publisher would do that. There were children book reviews and contests which I asked them to enter my book in, they did one reluctantly and only because I wrote and reminded them (actually not even sure they did it because I never got any info about it.) They told me to enter the rest myself. I did not know how so lost out on that.
All the books I bought I wrote letters to schools and offered to come to them for FREE and read my book, and sell them. I sold them at just a bit over my cost because they are so small they can’t compare to other books that sell at 6.95 so I sold them at 5.00 along with some pirate bracelets I got for oriental trading company.
The main reason that I joined is that Richard Tates original email to me stated that yes All tate books got put on Christian Books.com After my book was published I was told that was not true and that mine would not work for that. I wrote Richard an email and he just sent me back to the man I work with. He did submit my book to them and it was accepted but everytime I look at cbd.com my book is listed but says it won’t ship for a month…and that date just keeps moving so I assume they really never bought any books from tate. When I asked Tate about that I was told that its not their concern. When I asked cbd.com about that they said to contact my publlisher.
The only books that have sold through Tate are the books that I bought and paid 3.60 for each… That is of course on top of the $4000 I put up front. I bought 500 of my own books so far and that is all I can buy because I have gone to every school in san antonio and offered to read for FREE and even then only a handful accepted.
I write and sell other books at createspace and I sell over 100 a month that way. That doesn’t work for kids books as well because of the colr and I don’t know how to self pblish a color kids book, so for now I’ve put away this dream.
I also sent Tate a huge list of places that have pirate themes like dinner restaurants that also sell books, but they did not contact them for me.
.
I also went to a children’s conference and saw another Tate Authors book. I did not put my book on the table because compared to the other books that were published by other companies, mine was so tiny and silly looking. I read over the other Tate authors book and could not believe what I read. It was horrible, and again tiny ( I can’t believe anyone would have published it). I was too embarrassed to put my book out so I left the conference.
Since I joined I got a year end report. So this year I have no idea if any have sold, I got no quarterly report.
The whole thing makes me sad because I think that the story line in thi sbook was really something good for kids to hear so that they would notglorify pirates so much. But not many will ever hear it.
Plus with the mark up, selling it for 8.95 at places like amazon is outrageeous. It should sell for about 3.95 for the size and quality. It does have a free audio download though.
The books marks and posters they made were just plain and of little value to me.
Here is the amazon link http://www.amazon.com/I-Dont-Want-be-Pirate/dp/1616637730/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1308154935&sr=8-3
Mr. Goldberg,
I am an author associated with Tate Publishing, and unless the Tate’s we’re talking about are different companies, I think you need to do some homework. It is true that Tate asks for a $4000 up from investment, however, you’re a bit off the mark as to why. Tate Publishing is a business, and as a business they work not only with supply and demand, but also with the investment risk factors that every company has to deal with. By requiring the up front investment, they are covering their own backside by lessening the business risk in taking on unknown authors. That way, if perchance the book does prove to be a flop (which is not often, as the literary evaluation team is extremely picky) they don’t lose their shirts.
Another point you seem to have missed is that the investment is refunded to the author as soon as they hit a milestone sales mark, a quite reasonable one at that. I can assure the readers that Tate is NOT a vanity press, and that their international connections and high prestige in the publishing community is worthy of more note. I would tell that 14 yr old girl and her dad to GO FOR IT! I have had no problems with Tate, on the contrary, I think they are the finest chance for an unknown author to get a start in the world of literature. To you, Mr. Goldberg, I would suggest that you do a bit more homework before you go and bash companies that you obviously know nothing about.
The problem is this…no self respecting publishing company is going to offer you a book deal, and claim that they will do ALL of the marketing, unless they read the WHOLE, or at least half of the book. I sent 1 small chapter in just to get feedback, guess what, I was accepted! I was in the clouds, until i came down to reality and started thinking logically. I have a good book, however, they dont know, because i only sent them one chapter just for feedback. In return i get a phone call about what a great book it is. I received a contract asking for 3998.00. And that this amount is for their marketing team to market my book,etc…Bottom line, it is expensive self publishing. The FACT is, very well known publishers will take a chance on a no-name author. You know why? Because they read the book first, and decide they like it. They know, they have a great marketing team. How do you think king, and connely, and they other authors made it…they were given a chance by a well known pub. co./ they were marketed the right way, and wala~
you pay for an agent.
Mae,
No, you do not pay for an agent. Not a reputable one, anyway. They get a commission…a percentage of whatever they earn for you. So they don’t get paid until you do, and then it’s a 10-15% of whatever you are getting for the book.
Lee
I wrote a children’s book and had it published through Tate. I was hoping for a series (I already have the other books written) and in a matter of months, my illustrator was gone and my marketing person changed about three times. I am not sure where I stand with my book right now, and have had a hard time contacting anyone.
An agent gets paid after selling a client’s manuscript – he/she gets a percentage of the profit. Only scam agents ask for money upfront.
I am a recently published Tate author. I had other offers (traditional)but refused because I wanted to maintain my rights. I felt the fee was legitimate for that reason alone. My book went through rounds of editing, design and is produced in audio and e-forms as well as perfect paperback.
Like ANY new author I am working hard to be recognized. My book is physically in library’s and is making its way into Barnes and Noble as well as many independent book stores. “Self Published” authors can pay well more than the $3995 fee in marketing and production. Many traditionally published authors are now required to hire publicists and handle much of the marketing on their own. Honestly except for a couple of differences of opinion my experience with Tate has been a good one. No matter which form of publishing one chooses these days the fact is you will have to DO THE WORK to get noticed. You also have to have a good, relevant book. I will use Tate for my second book if they will have me. They say everyone has a story this is mine…
Doreen M. McGettigan/ http://www.doreenmcgettigan.com
I am a published author who didn’t pay my publisher, they paid me. However, this time, I would like more control of my book. I would also like to be more involved in setting it up myself for printing, just for the enjoyment of the process. Where do you suggest I check into next? I want to avoid the vanity presses, but I do expect I will need advise and possible help on parts of it from someone. Thanks!
So people should just give you everything without you giving nothing? They should publish for free, and they should take all the risk, you none? Look at how many industries charge money up front for their services. I looked at DogEar and they go on and on about how you shouldn’t pay Tate, but for their “Masterpiece” package that barely approaches what Tate offers, they charge the same $4000! Hello! Can you say hypocrite?
Wendy,
You’d be a fool to pay anyone $4K to publish your book, especially today, whether it’s Tate, DogEar, Author House or anybody else. Why? Because in this new publishing world, you can publish for FREE digitally (on Amazon, B&N) and in print (with CreateSpace, Lulu, etc). Amazon and CreateSpace take their money as a very small cut of your royalties. They make money when YOU make money.
Wake up, Wendy. You can be published, and reach a wide audience, without paying ANY MONEY AT ALL up front.
You can even avoid the minimal cost of having your work formatted for ebooks by using Smashwords. You can even make a cover yourself using your own artwork and a basic photo editing program.
The “deal” that Tate offers is even more outrageous and a bigger rip-off today than it was in 2006 when I first wrote this post.
Lee
S,
What have you done since this? Have you locatated another publisher? Has Tate been able to complete the illustrations and assigned you another marketer recently?
Tina
Do you now have an agent? Have you ended your contract with Tate?
“So people should just give you everything without you giving nothing?”
My contribution is my manuscript. I don’t consider my hard work to be “nothing”.
Do you consider your manuscripts to be “nothing”? That implies your only meaningful contribution is in your wallet.
I just received a contract from Tate Publishing. I definitely do not have the $4000.00 to spend so I’ll just shelve the contract and continue researching other publishers…..
With that style of writing, I doubt you’re really a writer. You’re probably a sock puppet, either Tate or someone paid by Tate to write glowing comments about them.
I have never read so many grammatical and spelling errors as I have in this forum. And you guys are supposed to be writers? Lol.
The bottom line from all the discussion here (that I took away) is that Tate Publishing is shady and that a legitimate publisher will pay you for the work, not the other way around. So you’ve been warned.
I just saw someone online telling everyone that her book is ready (Tate) and it’s $27.00 for a paperback.
Just saying, that if 5,000 copies were sold, that would be $135,000. Of COURSE they would be able to refund that $4,000. LOL
But, obviously, she will not sell 5,000 books; and in the meantime, Tate has her $4,000. What a poor choice!
A friend of mine is a Tate author, with three books now published by them. It’s a murky place Tate occupies. Tate claims to only accept a small percentage of authors but asks the author to pay roughly a third of the publishing cost. Once the book sells, IF it earns the $4,000 back that money is returned to the author. Now they’ve changed their tune and instead of charging for a portion of the publishing process, they require their authors to have a publicist or pay 4,000 to use theirs. They also include an audiobook recording or a national television trailer in the price. Their books tend to look more professional than the books you find offered for 99 cents on kindle by Amazon’s publishing services. They do edit thoroughly and work to make the books look as professional as possible. But in the end you are paying for it and it is unlikely that you’ll get your money back. You will have to put yourself out there. My friend’s books can be found in local bookstores but those are the ones she’s done book signings at and she had to approach the bookstores herself to get the signing. You won’t get the national distribution you would with a larger publishing house, which means more than likely your book will not be available at every Barnes and Noble nationwide. The recent scandal with the layoffs also makes me question how the company is run. I would try traditional routes first. The lengthy submission and rejection process forces you to hone your work.
Has anybody noticed that most of the authors posting on this site who claim to have been published by Tate (or offered contracts by them) cannot write well? Some of these posts look like they were written by cavemen–full of typos, problems with grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. Why would a legitimate publisher be interested in amateurs like this?
I am currently considering Tate Publishing. The 4K they refer to, is used as a retainer for a publicist, which is something I need. I went through self publishing, using Xlibris, for my first book, and it was not a good experience. They still call me asking for money to help promote that book. (If they’d promote it themselves they could be making money from it.) I’m not a traditional author, I write poetry, which is what I’m working on trying to get published now. All the different poetry sites, and publishers I find ask for money as well. I have strong, inspirational messages that I’d like to share with the world. How can I do that without spending money that I don’t have?
They should have put it on Amazon.com. Look for it there by your name or the book’s title.
They have a website with their staff’s names, pics and email ads. Send them a scathing email. I continually ‘talked’ with one or the other. The staff changes quite often – through promotion or B’Bye method.
Yes, they will ‘have’ you. It was in your first contract. You are committed to using them for your second book. One who knows.
Money can make one jaded Matt. A man with a heart can conveniently hire those without and say, I do nothing wrong.
What? 40% royalties??? No, no 15% royalties.
And good luck to you getting your book promoted by TATE. I had no help in that department. I have a wonderful children’s book and it could be a Disney movie if promoted.
I have been offered a contract from Tate Publishing. The contract that I received states that the initial investment of $3,990.00 would be refundered to me after 1,000 copies of my book have been sold — not 5,000 copies, as stated above. Also, the $3,990.00 is not publishing costs. The contract states that Tate Publishing will obsorb all of the publishing costs. That money (supposedly)is to secure Key Marketing Group and Communications out of Tulsa, OK to represent me. Their job is to market the product, set up a website for me, arrange for book signings, T.V., radio, manazine advertising, and other publicity on my behalf. However, Tate gave me the option to secure my own Literary Agent. Since I don’t have one, Key Marketing Group and Communications was assigned to me. Actually, I see nothing wrong with this kind of deal. Especially, for someone whose work has not met the test of time. It’s those people’s BUSINESS to know what the public will or will not purchase, isn’t it? I mean afterall, who better to evaluate the book’s worth than them?
Here’s how I see Tate’s position: If an author is not willing to invest a little for his brainchild to be published, what does that say about his confidence in its’ value on the open market? And furthermore, for a publisher to ask that a new author– an unknown — to pay somthing to secure an outside concern to promote his book is not unreasonable. Books by unknown authors are a gamble in the marketplace. Why should a publisher take all of the risks?
Here is what I think is unreasonable: It is unreasonable to except people you don’t even know to lay thousands of dollars on the line just because you “think” you just wrote a New York Times best seller. I’m just saying…
And I’m just saying you are a fool….staggering in your ineptitude and self-delusion.
Tate’s BUSINESS isn’t publishing. It’s printing. They are not publishers at all. They make their money off of authors, not off of selling books.
But please, go ahead, write Tate a check for $4000. Then come back here in a year and tell us all about the 12 books you sold.
Hey, here’s an idea — use that #$4000 to get your book edited and copyedited, hire a cover artist, and upload it yourself FOR FREE to Kindle, iBookstore, B&N, and CreateSpace and best of all, you won’t have to share a dime of your earnings, assuming you ever get any, with a bunch of sleaze bag, vanity press scammers like Tate who thrive on morons like you. (You can do it for far, far less than $4000, by the way).
You might think I’m being a jerk calling you a moron…but there is just no excuse any more for your kind of ignorance…not when it is so easy and cheap to get your book published….and there is so much information out there about it. You are reply to a message left here in 2008. WAKE UP LINDA. It’s 2012. The publishing world has changed dramatically since then.
Now you can publish your book in print and as an ebook, and get it sold on Amazon, iBooksore, B&N, etc FOR FREE. You don’t need Tate or anyone like them. And you certainly don’t need to give them $4000. What are you thinking!?
Oh, wait, I just re-read your post. You aren’t thinking at all.
Lee
Wow…what a thread. I happened upon this while stumbling Tate because their fine print and lack of other non-fine print sent up some red flags for me. I shall be the unbiased judge in the case of The State of Traditional Publishing vs. Tate LLC et al, etc. etc. The verdict is in. As for my credentials, Im no Lee Goldberg, but I did eake out a living as a pro writer for a couple years way back in the day. I started off as a features editor for WDN news here locally and was mentioned for an AP award. From there I wrote and directed a few unmentionable commercials on regional affiliates of CNN, TBS, TNT, FOX, and ESPN. Also had a couple songs I had written garner a very small amount of playtime on the internet and radio. All of this for a laughably low amount of money while I was worked on my big novel, the sample for which did get me a nod from a traditional publisher or two. As I was mortified at the thought of a rejection letter after a years worth of grueling work and effort, I chickened out and never sent the entire manuscript for approval. Just kept putting it off and putting it off till years had passed and I had lost track of it. I know. Very Underwhelming to say the least. But I was a PRO. So on the the verdict. Tate probably started out with good intentions looking to brand a sort of hybrid publishing that had something for everybody: legitimate, albeit limited, channels for distributing the work of real talent for whom they would wave investments and issue advances AND a pay-as-you-go option for the not so credible who would be willing to assume the financial risk of the marketing aspect for a chance at being seen. However, I’ve looked over all their authors and examined some of their works and not so much as one mid-lister or notable title jumps out at me. This says that they were never able to land any of the real talent and as such never generated any revenue from break out novels. This left them fiscally dependent on the hopefuls. They acknowledge in their website content that they discerningly turn away all but 4% of authors and manuscripts but by what I’ve read in this thread alone that’s a farce as every single one of you have been graciously “accepted”. Some of you didn’t even submit manuscripts…they just called you up and asked you to write something, anything and send it to them. Accepted. But even if the 4% were an accurate figure, that’s roughly ten times more than what the market tolerates. Only around .03% of submissions (read 3 for every 10000) to name brand publishers ever see a printing press. And to speak to the UNBELIEVABLY high number of accolades, references, and commendations being shouted from the mountain tops by pleased Tate Authors filled with Ecstasy, upon closer examination you find that all of these praises are being sung directly after the “You’re Accepted” point of the relationship but terminally before the Wait-I-never-actually-got-paid point of the relationship. If none of these authors are even hitting low list status, they can love Tate all they want. Try cashing “being accepted” at the bank. To the couple of you who claim marginal fame and fortune at the hands of Tate, well, the wheels are greased. A truly talented writer no doubt can gain notoriety through Tate’s channels, but I’d argue that if that is indeed the case, you could have gained it on your own. And if that talent is there, they should have jumped on it and replaced your cost with an advance. There is my ruling. Judge out.
All of you say have a publisher pay you to publish your book, but none of you say how to find a publisher thay? will do this for a first time author.. Where are they? How do you look them up?
When I worked at Tate in 2006-07, we were often visited by Leon Mentzer. It was also common knowledge that he was paid to refute bad publicity on the internet. I’d like to see Leon deny this. He was on the payroll at least during this time to do exactly what he is doing above. Pretty sleazy, Leon.
Sarah Leis, Oklahoma City
former Tate graphic designer and illustrator
This is true. Please see my reply to his posting.