Another Day in FanFic

Meljean Brook readily admits that her DC Comics-based  fanfic is a violation of copyright…but that she writes them anyway.

The first question is: isn’t it illegal?

Yes. There’s no
getting around that. I am using copyrighted characters, and using them
to write stories. The characters are owned by DC Comics, the copyrights
are current and valid….

And yet I wrote them anyway.

Don’t I have any sensibilities?
Any notion of right and wrong? Any inkling of what it is to own a
character? Why copyright infringement is a horrible thing to do?

The answer is: Yes. I do. Stealing ideas and claiming them as my own is the worst form of plagiarism.

I
don’t claim them as my own—I know exactly where the credit for their
creation lies. Did I write them? Yes. Do I own them? Nope. Anyone who
wants them can have them.

Does that little disclaimer at the
beginning of every fic that says "I don’t make any money from these"
absolve me of responsibility? No, I still violated copyrights.

So if she has so much respect for copyright, why did she do it? Because she simply couldn’t help herself.

Using someone else’s character and making that character behave in ways
the creator/copyright holder would never have condoned/conceived is
revolting. How dare I write about Batman and Wonder Woman becoming
romantically linked? How dare I write a slash fiction parody involving
Batman and Superman?

The answer is: I didn’t know what else to
do. I’m a writer—I may not be a very good one, but it is what I do.
When Batman and Wonder Woman grabbed a hold of me, they didn’t let go,
and I had to write it. There were stories in my head, and I told them
on paper like I do every other story in my head.

And because I’m a geek, and because I had no one else to talk to about this, I put it on the Internet.

I’ve heard a lot of inane justifications for writing fanfic, but this is the winner. She knows she’s using characters that aren’t her own, that she’s disrespecting the authors right to control their own creations, but none of that really matters… because she’s "a writer," so she had no other choice but to write the story and post it in the net.  She had to do it. It was an undeniable compulsion.

Because she’s "a writer."

No, Meljean, you’re not. You don’t have the slightest inking of what it means to be a writer or any respect for other writers.  A writer creates characters and stories  and respects the creative rights of his colleagues. You are a plagiarist. A creative parasite. To call yourself "a writer" to justify your creative theft and Internet publication of your work disrespects every real writer you steal from.

Now I know what you’re going to say…"I used fanfic to learn my craft. I am a writer now. A professional writer. I have a novella coming out from Berkley and I’m working on a novel.   So there!"

Uh-huh.

So why do you still proudly post all your fanfic on your site? A real writer would have more respect for her peers. A real writer — an adult —  would know better.

Grow up already.

144 thoughts on “Another Day in FanFic”

  1. I’m going to be brutally blunt here: see those panties? Unbunch ’em. See how much comfortable it is now? Mmmmm-hah.
    I’m going to be all obnoxious and pull some definitions:
    Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
    Pronunciation: ‘plA-j&-“rIz also -jE-&-
    Function: verb
    Inflected Form(s): -rized; -riz·ing
    Etymology: plagiary
    transitive senses : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one’s own : use (another’s production) without crediting the source
    intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source
    How is fanfic plagiarism? All the writers provide credit where it’s due. What fanfic writer out there claims “I CREATED BATMAN”? Please. Somebody who reads fanfic and somehow thinks Ima Ficwriter created Buffy the Vampire Slayer either lives under a rock, or needs to up her Haldol dosage. The writers use existing characters, and yes, that’s copyright infringement–assuming the work isn’t public domain, that is. But the stories they come up with are generally original. Now if somebody wrote Marvel fanfic that was a thinly-disguised reworking of the Dark Phoenix arc and tried to pass that off as an original story, THAT would be plagiarism. How many fanfic writers try to pull of that kind of stunt, though? I have no doubt they’re out there, but my guess is: very few.
    Here’s another definition:
    Main Entry: par·a·site
    Pronunciation: ‘par-&-“sIt
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
    1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
    2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
    3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
    I’m assuming that definition number 1 doesn’t apply in this case, but definitions 2 and 3 do. Let’s see: fanfic writers don’t make money through their fanfic. In fact, given the time, effort and money fanfic writers spend on what they do, they end up LOSING money. Fanfic writers are often dedicated, insanely loyal consumers of the products provided by the original creators, ditto fanfic readers. Fanfic, if anything, increases the value of the franchise and keeps it fresh and a viable concern, long after the original series is gone or the author is dead. So yeah, parasitism? I’d say saprophytism is a better term for some forms of fanfic, while symbiosis would be a better fit for most others.
    I don’t read or write fanfic (I don’t write fiction, period); I’m just a bitch who is kind of annoyed at the borderline-rabid black-or-white reasoning I’m seeing you apply in this one instance, when generally you seem like a pretty reasonable guy. “If you’re a fanfic writer, you’re not a real writer nor can you have ANY IDEA what it means to be a real writer.” Pffffff.

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  2. Candy – You were much nicer on my blog….. Again, I have to point on that whether or not the fanfic “author” gets paid is not the point. It’s not even relevant. Further, the original author – the real and only author – might not want the type of publicity you’re talking about. The property, the characters/plot/story taken by the fanfic without permission, belongs to someone else. Someone else created that work. That person is the writer. And Lee is right, if folks are admitting they’re violating copyright law, why is it okay to do it? I know we agreed to disagree yesterday but the “oh well” defense isn’t good enough or shouldn’t be.
    And, it’s Lee’s blog. If he wants to bunch whatever, that’s his choice.

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  3. Why do fanficcers inevitably seem to gravitate to sex between the characters?
    As for Candy’s comments on plagiarism… fanficcers do claim that their stories are their own, despite the fact that they’ve stolen the basis for them, so that would fit the meaning of the word.

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  4. I do realize the irony of telling people to disentangle their underwear when I obviously need to unbunch mine. Hee!
    I was nicer at your blog because you didn’t make unwarranted personal attacks, and you maintained a very reasonable tone throughout. If you’d called all fanfic writers parasites and made other insupportable claims, then I would’ve busted with the snark too. I mean, suddenly Lee KNOWS exactly what Meljean’s experiences, and he’s able to definitively dismiss her as being worthless?
    As for the filthy lucre aspect of fanfic: when somebody accuses fanfic writers of parasitism, then absolutely the monetary aspect becomes relevant, because that implies that fanfic writers are somehow benefitting financially from the arrangement. Parasites are also more often than not detrimental to the host’s health, and I was trying to point out that if the canon is the “host”, fanfic isn’t doing a whole lot of harm, and in many instances is doing good.
    I’ve already gone on ad nauseam at your blog that I think there’s no doubt fanfic violates copyright laws and therefore is technically an illegal activity; whether I think it’s morally wrong is another matter entirely. What’s legal vs. what’s ethical are not sets that intersect perfectly–not for everybody, anyway. It certainly doesn’t for me in this case. Why is it OK to speed on an empty highway? Why is it OK for Longmire to make fun of romance novel covers by giving them alternative titles? Why is it OK to goof off occasionally at work instead of sticking my nose to the grindstone for the full 9 hours I’m here?
    And yes, it’s certainly Lee’s right to say WHATEVER he wants on his blog; likewise, I believe I have a right to state my opinion in the comments section, whether that’s agreement with what he’s saying or calling him on his shit and disagreeing. I do realize that ultimately, this is his space and he’s free to delete my comments or ban me from further commenting. *shrug*

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  5. David: Do fanfic writers actually claim that the whole universe and the characters that populate their fanfic are their own, or do they just claim that the situations they put their characters in are the original work? Isn’t “plagiarism” a bit strong? I’d say “derivative” would be a much more accurate term.

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  6. From what I’ve read and seen, fanfic strikes me as the literary equivalent of a cover band.
    Cover bands take the work of others and generally add little or nothing new or interesting to it – in fact, they often make it worse (except for Brown Eyed Girl, because, really, it’s rather lame as it is and far too simple a song to truly botch).
    For that reason, I’m not compelled to go see a cover band or to read fanfic – or to get overly excited about either. Of course, no one has ever covered one of my songs or copied my writing, so there you go.

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  7. What about spec scripts for existing television shows? Writers are taking characters that aren’t their own and putting them in situations the creator hasn’t granted them the right to do. They also claim these creations as their own. They copyright them. And there are plenty of them to be found on the web. Is this illegal?

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  8. I’ve never been a winner before; I’ll take a medal in the inane category, I don’t mind.
    And, okay, I won’t call myself a writer anymore. I don’t respect a lot of people, so if not respecting DC’s copyright enough makes me a non-writer, I can accept that.
    Let me make this really easy for you: (212) 636-5595. That’s the fax number to DC Comics’s Rights and Permissions department. I’ll even pay for the call.
    Here’s the letter:
    Dear DC Comics:
    A fan (I won’t call her a writer) has used your characters to write fictional stories, and has distributed them on the Internet for all and sundry to read.
    Please send her a cease-and-desist letter; I know you must be as outraged as I am. Her e-mail address is meljean@meljeanbrook.com, and she writes…I mean, she _hacks_ under the pen name Meljean Brook. (In case the legal department needs it, her real name is Melissa Khan.)
    Thank you.

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  9. I think you’re drawing lines a bit too strictly.
    First, let me say that I’m a professional author and have been selling original fiction for 18 years. In the past four, I’ve also written fanfic on the side. Just for the record, I’m 40 years old — rather long in the tooth for a fanfic author — and in RL, I write mainstream.
    I don’t regard what I do as plagiarism because actual plagiarism means to take exact wording (and you know that, or should). Derivative could apply, and clearly does, in some cases. But I think *folk art* comes closer — that’s really what I regard fanfic to be. Folk art. And like folk art, some is spectacular. Most isn’t. ;>
    Furthermore, there are types of fanfic within the larger umbrella, depending on the source material. Myself, I never have (and never will) write fanfic based on the stories of a SINGLE creator/author, unless that creator were to make it very clear that s/he was okay with it. The ‘world’ for which I write is a world with multiple creators, and wherein the creators have (in fact) okayed fanfic. It’s not regarded as competitive, but complementary (and complimentary, too). So no, I don’t feel guilty about it in the least. I DO, in fact, pay attention to these things because I, too, make a living as a creator. If the creators were ever to say, “Stop doing it,” I would.
    The source material of fanfic varies a great deal from fiction written by a single author to TV shows, movies, and even comics (as in the DC comics mentioned). For the bulk of these, there are *multiple* creators, and multiple changes and shifts across several years (even decades) — some of which may include “retcons” of previous events. No single person DOES own those characters, or that world, and different writers may portray characters differently. These are shared worlds with input that ranges from producer to screen writer to director to actors, or writer to artist to inker to series editor. We’re *not* dealing with the vision of a single author or creator.
    That’s an important distinction. And no, I’m not “justifying” or splitting hairs. It IS an important distinction, as anyone who’s ever participated in a collaboration knows.
    As for the quality of fanfic — yes, much of it is poorly written, but I don’t need to quote Sturgeon’s Law to you, do I? ;> And as you no doubt know, most young writers in creative writing classes or writing groups are not much (if any) better. Nor is the average slushpile at Publishing House of Your Choice. There’s a lot of bad writing period, whether the ‘folk art’ of fanfic, or original fiction. But there are gems among them — just like a slushpile. I have certainly read fanfiction that was not just publishable quality, but *damn good*. (And I’m not the only published author moonlighting on the side, either.)
    I realize that I am an oddity compared to many fanfic authors — but the fact that I exist should indicate that the lines you’ve drawn are not so simple. Nor am I unique. An oddity, yes; unique — no.
    I find that writing fanfic is rather akin to writing historical fiction, in terms of the skills involved. There are certain givens around which one constructs a story. That takes a particular kind of skill. And when one is dealing with worlds that have been constructed by multiple creators, then the skill of the writer lies in the *composition*. This is also like ancient Greek epic poetry and tragic theatre. Homer didn’t ‘write’ the ILIAD. He composed the version that became the most popular take on that part of the Trojan Cycle. He inserted his own takes (and tweaks) on the traditional story and characters. Achilles is not Homer’s creation, but Homer’s *take* on Achilles is particular and unique.
    That’s what (the best) fanfiction does. I’d like to think it’s what I do (as arrogant as it might seem to compare one’s self to Homer!). When I construct a story, I borrow the ‘world’ and the ‘characters,’ but then elaborate on them, *recreate* them, and *compose* something new, and — yes — original.
    If this is merely derivative or plagiaristic, then we should all be so derivative as Homer … or Euripides … or Shakespeare. ;>
    I hope this (anonymous) opinion from a ‘real’ (paid, professional) author who also dabbles in fanfic might give you something more to chew on. The question that I get most often from the (few) who know that I do both is “Why are you wasting your time!?” … which typically translates to “Why are you writing for free what you could earn money for!?” But see, I never wrote to earn money. It’s a happy chance that I can. I write because I love to tell stories … and share them. Even when I work in someone else’s sandbox, the plot, the twist on characterization … yes, that’s mine. And I think it’s just as original as much of what I’ve written for pay. I recently completed a novel-length fanfic piece of which I’m as proud, if not more so, than anything I’ve written for pay. Like Homer, like Euripides — or like a historical fiction author — I don’t just puppet the characters, I take the template then make them my own.
    Why do I do this with characters that ‘belong’ to somebody else (or several somebodies), rather than stick strictly to my own? I find it *fun* … simple as that. I love the characters, and the world, and I try to do interesting things with them. It’s a tribute, not theft. No, I get no pay — nor do I want any. What DO I get? Enjoyment at telling the story. It’s a *hobby*, it just happens that my ‘hobby’ is the same thing I do for a (partial) living.
    Cheers!

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  10. Well, finally some writers seem to get an idea of what fanfic is all about and start using it accordingly:
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/halseanderson/19360.html
    And yes, it has been said a hundred times, but fanficcers do for free what writers like Lee do for money when they write tie-in novels. The only difference lies in the legality – regarding the creative aspects it’s the same.
    And I think the simple fact *who* is protesting fanfic the most can tell you a lot about those writers.
    kete

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  11. The link in the comment above takes you to an author’s website… the author and his publisher are having a contest and award some money to whoever can write the best prequel or sequel to the events in his book.
    The big difference between this and fanfiction is that the author and publisher are authorizing the work…soliciting it in fact. They have the author’s consent. Let me repeat it so it sinks in: THEY HAVE THE AUTHOR’S CONSENT.
    The vast majority of fanfiction steals characters and situations from authors/screenwriter without their consent or involvement.
    Once again, Kete drags out the lame tie-in argument. . Listen up, dimwits. Here’s the big different between tie-ins and fanfiction:
    TIE IN WRITERS HAVE THE CONSENT OF THE AUTHORS. The creators (or owners) of the characters control the tie-in and its distribution. The creators/owners approve of the book…they are involved in its development.
    WEST WING creator Aaron Sorkin didn’t go on the net and say “Hey, I’d like to see stories where President Bartlett is ass-fucking Josh.”

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  12. DC Comics is hardly crying foul about her fanfic, so why are you? Devin Grayson, who currently writes Nightwing’s title and has written on many other DC titles previously, was a fanfic writer (and still is, by her own admission). Meljean, the writer you’re mocking, was “discovered” by a fan of her fanfic, who just happened to be an editor. In fact, there was another instance of a fanfic-writer-turned “pro,” much more recent, but I don’t know the details.
    When the people who have been maligned and their fellow publishers are hiring these horrible “non” writers, it’s a bit difficult to buy into your argument.

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  13. Oh, Lee, Lee, Lee, are you STILL on about this? You truly just don’t GET it, do you?
    1) Yes, she IS a writer. Maybe not a good one, maybe even a godawful one (I don’t know, I haven’t read her stories) but to put a pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard and tell a story is to write. Even plagiarism is writing. Call it bad writing if you must, but don’t deny what it is.
    2) We can go backward, forward, and sideways for weeks over the legalities of fanfiction, but I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mine–we did this back in October when you said I was pathetic because I’ve been writing fanfic for 13 years. There are LOTS of legal arguments that support a fanwriter’s position. There are also many arguments that support yours. Until it gets hashed out by the courts in its full fanwriter vs. author glory, we won’t know for certain.
    3) BUT…still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that’s one type of “harm” that the courts have never recognized. JK Rowling has spoken very highly of fans who want to explore aspects of Harry Potter that she doesn’t get to in her books. What are the stories in wizard history? Are there other wizard schools in the the Americas or Asia or Australia? What are the backstories of the other characters? These are questions the fans love to know, and most authors just don’t have the time to answer them all. How does it harm the author for a fan to write a story surrounding his/her own theory to answer those questions?
    4) And fanfic is a good way to learn your craft, as I tried to persuade you before, but you obviously still don’t understand. I’ll never try to SELL my fanstories–that WOULD be disrespectful and wrong, but I’ve had thousands of readers give me comments and feedback on plot development, characterization, and just basic writing mechanics. And my first original novel is now going well–unless you’re going to say I’m a plagiarist and disrespectfully ripping off Plutarch by writing a novel about the founding of Rome!
    Allow me to recapitulate. As Emily Dickinson once said, “to write is to write is to write.” We are all writers. The legality of fanfiction is a murky issue with no clear and set answers. Fanwriting does not harm the original author whose work is its base, provided it’s not being sold or passed off as the original product. Fanwriting is educational, fun, a good community activity.
    There are far worse hobbies in the world. I fully intend to publish the novel I’m working on, but I will never stop fanwriting.

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  14. Jocelyn wrote:
    “3) BUT…still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that’s one type of “harm” that the courts have never recognized.”
    I do. The authors do. But you’ve chosen to ignore it.
    Forget the legalities for a moment (which shouldn’t be hard for you…fanficcers do that as a given). What gives YOU the right to decide just how “harmed” an author is by having his characters stolen and used in ways he has no control over? Who assigned YOU creative control of someone else’s characters?
    Harm is not necessarily measure in dollars, Jocelyn. Who are you, someone who had nothing to do with the creation of the characters,to decide how they are used? What astonishing arrogance.
    Someone created the characters fanficcer steal… NOT YOU… how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work.
    If you love the characters so much, why don’t you show the authors a little respect? Don’t you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property?
    But fanficcers don’t do that. Because they don’t give a damn.

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  15. Lee makes an interesting point. Why don’t fanficcers contact the copyright holders of the works they’d like to borrow from and get permission? Obviously they wouldn’t get it 99 times out of 100. But it should be the rights holders who make that decision, not the fanfic writers.
    If you respect the characters, if you respect the work, get permission first. Then your critics will have to shut up.

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  16. You know, authors aren’t exactly powerless when it comes to fanfics being written about their stuff. Just do what that woman who wrote the vampire stories did: forbid it.
    People listened.
    Isn’t there a list somewhere of which authors allow fanfics and who don’t?

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  17. You’re trying to lump fanfiction people into one monolithic group. There are tons of varieties of fanfic written by THOUSANDS of people, most of whom don’t know each other, know about their respective genres/kinks/weirdnesses, or care. One person wants to write about Buffy as a Giant Ant, another wants to write about Harry Potter at the Dentist. They don’t know each other, and do not communicate.
    That being said, there are quite a number of individual fan groups that *do* contact the authors and *do* have an official ok on whatever they do; Joss Weedon is well aware of the number of fanfic writers surrounding most of his work (and does not mind). Same as JKRowling. There are others.
    I don’t write *or* read fanfic, but I understand the desire to learn a craft and enjoy some characters in new ways. I mean, at least half of the people writing it are underage. I knew a ton of girls writing this kind of stuff back when I was a kid in the 70s. They just didn’t have the Internet to share it on, so they wrote it in their own diaries, or shared it with friends. There are a ton of fanfiction writers on the ‘net just like that today, in fact. People who never post anything to a place like fanfiction.net, but post it on their private journals. If you are worried so much about the legality of the situation versus the morality of what they’re writing, what do you propose to do about them? It must be obvious that you can’t stop everyone from doing this. I think it’s a natural way for people to learn to write, in the same way that young comic artists begin by copying the X-men or Disney stuff before they branch out to their own work.
    I mean, Mattel hasn’t been able to stop little girls from playing “let’s pretend Ken and Barbie and GI Joe are a little randy this weekend” yet. I see this as a similar thing, and that eventually, yes, most people grow out of it and maybe start to write their own stuff. I don’t think it’s anything to get freaked out about.

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  18. Sorry, Helen, but not everyone who disagrees with you or Lee is from a massive cabalistic organization. I read your blog, is all. Maybe not anymore though. =/

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  19. I wasn’t actually responding to you – just making a general comment. But, do you realize that you’re expressing support for taking someone else’s original works, distorting them however you please and disseminating them without the author’s permission, then in the next sentence expressing moral outrage at my comment, “I see the folks from Fandom Wank found you too.” Please be kidding.

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  20. Oooh, the debate’s back! Yay! [Bounces]
    Now, from what I can see the arguments currently are:
    1) The legality or lack-thereof of fan-fiction.
    2) The respect or lack-thereof shown to authors by fanficcers.
    I’ll say this straight off — the three main things I write fanfiction for have given their consent. First is J.R.R. Tolkien, who is a) Dead, and b) The author of a quote saying that he /intended/ for other people to expand his mythology. Second is Terry Pratchett, who has said that he is the only person allowed to make profit from Discworld stories, but that other people can write fanfic of them. Third is actually a second-generation fandom — the PPC was originally a fanfic of Lord of the Rings, but has since expanded into a whole series, with spinoffs. We’re very strict about permission regarding that.
    Actually, there’s a point — some of the fanfic series’ get very possessive over their intellectual property. The PPC is one. We do tend to go after unauthorised spinoff authors with a vengeance. I think I just lost my own argument through rampant hypocrisy, didn’t I?
    However, the difference here is that we choose to do that. You, too, can choose to request that people not write fanfics of whatever it is you write. You’ll probably be a little more effective, too — true, some people will choose to ignore you, but then, some published authors write trash. That doesn’t mean all of them do.
    Oh, and to respond to a point made, we /would/ contact the people in question and ask for permission, if a) The majority of fanficcers weren’t thirteen-year-old girls who’ve never heard of ‘copyright’, or indeed ‘spellcheck’, and b) We wouldn’t likely get /ignored/. See, authors get a lot of fanmail, or so I assume. I doubt they have time to answer it all. However, if it will make you feel better, I will waste some more of my time hunting down the email addresses of Terry Pratchett and the Tolkien Estate and send them nice emails asking if they’d mind /awfully/ if we write fanfiction about their stuff. Would you be satisfied, at least on the Tolkien and Pratchett fronts, if I did that?
    — hey, why stop there? Why don’t we fanficcers pool our resources and contact as many authors as we can? We’ll even let them set guidelines. Will that make you happy?
    — I’m not saying, of course, that everyone will follow those guidelines. But then, no law is followed by everyone.
    This was completely disorganised. I’m very sorry. In my defense, it /is/ 1 am over here.

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  21. Wow. Talk about Deja Vu.
    First: Fanart is, well, art by fans featuring the characters (mostly), or vehicles, magic objects, etc. Interestingly enough while it is considered really bad form to sell fanfiction, fanart is very often sold, at cons or online. Cosplay items may fall into this category as well, especially things like pendants, weapons etc. Naturally the better artists get better prices…
    I think the difference between fanart and fanfiction is that fanart is more obviously /art/.
    “Why don’t fanficcers contact the copyright holders of the works they’d like to borrow from and get permission? ”
    Maybe because most of us write for extremely popular fandoms, and if we all went and got permission each and every time we wanted to write a story we would eat up the creator’s time. Even if A. Author fully supports fanfiction s/he would probably say no simply so that they would have time to actually make money and have a life. I don’t know about you, but I would think asking such a thing to be rather rude, especially if it was thousands and thousands of people asking. I want my favorite authors to be writing more books for me to buy, not answering inane questions by thousands of fans.
    Another thing is that many authors don’t want to officially know about the fanfiction. Look up the Marion Zimmer Bradley case sometime. The short explanation was that she was actually reading fanfiction written about Darkover that her fans sent to her. One fruitbat fan actually sued her because she wrote a book that had a similar plot to the story that said fan sent her. This is why most fanfiction-friendly authors, at least in the science fiction/fantasy genre, simply don’t want to know about it. That way they can’t be sued.
    (I don’t mean to imply that all fans are lawsuit happy. Most of us are actually still very angry at that fan for ruining things like that. Before the lawsuit Bradley had a very open relationship with her fans. Afterwards no so much. Not that I blame her)
    The possibility that they could be sued says something about the legality of fanfiction to me, by the way.
    It would be nice if each and every original author out there had a clear policy for fanfiction, but they don’t. I tend to write in fandoms in which the author is supportive to fanfiction. I know you know that both JK Rowling and Terry Pratchett support fanfiction, because it was brought up the last time. Both Mercedes Lackey and Harry Turtledove got their start writing fanfiction for Lord of the Rings. All four are successful authors and fanfiction has not hurt them in any way. Lackey as asked that fans confine themselves to the offical fanzines, but she doesn’t seem to object to the online stuff as long as it is where she won’t stumble over it.
    I think what you don’t seem to get is just how intertwined fandom, fanfiction, and original fiction are. I can tell you that I have much more respect for authors that allow fanfiction, because they show so much more respect to me, the fan.
    If you don’t like fanfiction and don’t want it to be written about your stuff, fine. Tell people not to do it, and your fans will listen to you. Anne Rice got it to stop. Don’t poke your nose into other fandoms, and tell writers (both fan and original) what to do, because frankly it isn’t your business.

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  22. Dear God someone get Milton out of the literary canon, stat! Because, you know, Paradise Lost is plagiarized from the Bible.
    Lee, your arguments fucking suck. Get the pole out of your ass.

    Reply
  23. I must say that what I love most when Lee starts his quaterly attack on fandom is how eventually the fan fic writers just end up saying, Lee, you’re a dick. (Although it was pretty cool when the battlestar guys also started challenging Lee to fist fights, wagers, arm wrestling competitions and then eventually ended up calling him a “fag”.) Christ people, I’ve been saying the very same thing for 34 years…

    Reply
  24. Quote:
    “Harm is not necessarily measure in dollars, Jocelyn. Who are you, someone who had nothing to do with the creation of the characters,to decide how they are used? What astonishing arrogance.
    Someone created the characters fanficcer steal… NOT YOU… how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work.
    If you love the characters so much, why don’t you show the authors a little respect? Don’t you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property?”
    What is interesting to me, in this conversation about colossal arrogance, is that you seem to be guilty of it as well, Mr. Goldberg. Who are you, someone who has nothing to do with the creation of OTHER creator’s characters, to claim to speak on behalf of ALL other creators, insulting and ridiculing THEIR fans in the process? Especially on a subject where its clear that many of them do not in fact agree with you.
    Already people have cited Tolkien, Turtledove, Lackey, Rowling, Pratchett….all prominent, prolific authors who either condone fanfic, or even got their start in it. Add C.S. Lewis and George R.R. Martin to that list, off the top of my head….Joss Whedon’s Buffyverse is one of the largest fanfic communities out there, and he openly condones it. Devin Grayson is the only comic book writer I know of that started out writing fanfic, but Brian K. Vaughan, Geoff Johns, Mark Millar and numerous others have given it their stamp of approval as well. And it was a FANFIC messageboard that launched the “Save Roswell” campaign that convinced the producers of the show “Roswell” to keep it on the air for an additional season.
    All of those people are creators whose livelihoods depend on their original work and creations. None of them give a damn if a fan chooses to use one of their characters in a form of speculative fiction that recieves no monetary compensation, or undue credit. So what gives you the right to attack other people for an act which is NOT harming you even by your definitions, when these other creators disagree with you as to whether or not they are even being harmed? Dear god, man, get off your high horse already before you fall and hurt yourself. You’re certainly due respect for YOUR personal creations, and nobody would contest your right to ban fanfic based on your works, but that’s all. You are not the mouthpiece for all these unnamed creators you claim to defend, and by the very same logic that says fanficcers don’t get the consent of these creators to use their characters, you did not get the consent of these creators to use them as justification for your personal war or vendetta against fanfiction.
    When someone makes use of YOUR hardwork and creations in a fanfic, I am certainly not going to contest your right to take whatever action you want. But with regards to anyone else’s work….umm, hello, I don’t care how famous or wellknown or how lauded you are. You’ve been published? Yipee-dee-skippidee-doo. You and how many other people out there? Who don’t feel the need to personally degrade others over a matter of personal taste? You continually insist that fanfiction is in fact, illegal, and yet you have not cited any instance that clearly says this is so. Fanfiction is not a new phenomenon by any means. It has even been brought up in legal cases before, and yet I have not seen any lawyer or judge attempt to come after fanfiction as a whole.
    Do you honestly believe that if it were actually illegal, the fanfiction community would be as large or widespread as it actually is? That this many published authors and creators would publicly condone it? That published authors and creators would openly admit to having done it themselves? And if its not a matter of legality, but rather one of moral judgement……back to the subject of comics. Any estimate of how much money Chuck Austen made by writing monthly issues of X-Men for almost three years? And yet, did he personally know Stan Lee or Jack Kirby before he used their creations. When all the fans complained about his treatment of fanfavorites that had been around for decades, as he wrote them in ways that directly contradicted the way they’d been portrayed for years…..where was your moral outcry then? How DARE he make money by raping some other creator’s characters like that?
    But there’s no legal basis to complain there, and no real moral way to complain either. Oh but that’s different…..except its really not. Sure, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby left those characters available for the use of other writers. Many of today’s comics creators have done the same for their fans, with only the basic stipulation/understanding that no profit can be made from fanfic. Now if you want to go around to every creator you’re aware of, and ask for their stance on fanfic, go ahead. And once you get that great big giant list, IF there’s anyone on it who didn’t already know fanfic was being written about their work, and decides they disapprove of it…….then feel free to ridicule away at any fanfics based on their creation. Until then, you have no real ground to stand on.
    And before you go making misassumptions again, I am not a fanfic writer, nor have I ever felt the desire to write fanfic. I’ve always found my own characters to be infinitely more appealing. And y’know….to think that any character I could come up with would be more interesting than one whose had a rabid fan following for decades…….god. What colossal arrogance. So right, I guess I have no real stake in this argument either. Just as your a creator defending your fellow creators from the rape of their characters, I guess I’m just defending my fellow human frickin’ beings from ridicule and cries of ‘pathetic thief’ that they really don’t deserve.
    Not that I expect they’ll get an apology.

    Reply
  25. In response to David Montgomery who asks, “Why anonymous? If there’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing, why be ashamed of it?”
    Answer to the second question first: I’m not ashamed of it, actually.
    Answer to the first question second: Because of the negative attitude of people like you (and Mr. Goldberg) who tend to lump all fanfic authors into one indescriminate pile. ;>
    And really, you should have been able to guess that answer. What you’re really trying to do is get out of taking seriously what was said by discrediting the one who said it. That’s called an ad hominem attack, and it’s not in the spirit of Jeffersonian Debate. Shame on you. (I’m not just an author, I’m also an academic. Deal with the argument, not the person.)

    Reply
  26. “Lee Goldberg wrote…
    “3) BUT…still, you are being unfair and vicious to call fanwriters creative parasites. Our activity does not HARM the original author! Granted, it may annoy the author or even gross him/her out, but that’s one type of “harm” that the courts have never recognized.”
    I do. The authors do. But you’ve chosen to ignore it.”
    The “authors do?” You’re generalizing again, Lee, I seem to recall that JK Rowling, the most popular author of our day, is not only permissive of but supportive of fanwriters’ activities. So is Joss Whedon, creator of the Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel series. The great JRR Tolkien himself said he WANTED people to write more stories based in his fantasy worlds of Middle Earth and Arda.
    What gives YOU the right to speak for them?
    “What gives YOU the right to decide just how “harmed” an author is by having his characters stolen and used in ways he has no control over? Who assigned YOU creative control of someone else’s characters?”
    No one–we the fanwriters are not taking CONTROL of anyting–and therein lies my point. YOUR work is not in any way affected by what we do.
    “Someone created the characters fanficcer steal… NOT YOU… how dare you unilaterally decide to what degree an author can be offended by the rape of their work.”
    EXAMPLE: Let’s say you write a novel/episode of a TV show, and end it in a cliffhanger. I’m sure you’ve done that, having written for shows like SeaQuest etc. Now your poor fans are left wondering how that story will end. Of course, they will speculate. Some of them will stew and brood and try to figure it out, either because they’re genuinely biting their nails, or just because they enjoy the detective work. And some of them may jot down a story in which they try to answer the questions you’ve raised in your cliffhanger. They may post the story for other fans to read, just as speculation, or to get their “fix” while they wait for you to solve the puzzle for them with the “real thing.”
    You’ve lost NOTHING from that fanwriter’s activity. You haven’t lost control–nobody will say that you now CAN’T write and release the conclusion to your cliffhanger. And I guarantee you–every fan, including that fanwriter, will be eagerly awaiting that conclusion, because it is the “Real Thing.”
    We have taken nothing from you. I really don’t understand where you’re coming from here. We have not taken control–it still rests 100% in your hands.
    Even if, heaven forbid, Congress passed a law tomorrow banning all fanfiction of any kind, your fans would still speculate about plots and characters. Is that taking control away? Is THAT wrong? If not, then why do you object so much to them writing their theories/ideas/wishful thinking down and sharing it with others?
    What do you LOSE? How is your work diminished by the idle daydreams of fans? I really don’t get it.
    “If you love the characters so much, why don’t you show the authors a little respect? Don’t you owe it to the author to get their consent before you steal their intellectual property? ”
    My reason for not asking permission is simple–I’m not taking anything. All I’m doing is expessing an idea–a speculation or wishful thinking. Fanwriters acknowledge that our work is not the Real Thing and will never measure up to the Real Thing that the original author–you–puts out. We (well, the majority of us, anyway) give the original author every respect and tribute. Our work is a celebration of that author and the way they’ve inspired our imagination, to the point where the best way to express it is to spin a few tales of our own concerning those characters.
    And, my friend, my book may not be published yet, but believe me, I’ve done some pondering about how I would react if I found fanwriters writing slash tales about my heroes or any of the other freaky weirdness that lurks in the dark alleys of the Internet.
    In absolute honesty…I think I’d just laugh! No one will mistake their work for mine, I’m not responsible for what they do, so no one will blame me for their material (no one with a brain anyway), nothing they do diminishes my creative control.
    I still don’t get what your problem is with it.

    Reply
  27. I wandered in here from Fandom_Wank, and I have one question for Mr. Goldberg:
    If fanfiction as an entire genre upsets you so much…
    why do you read it, or read about it?
    Technically, you have the right to write anything you damn well please… but if thinking about fanfiction, or reading it, or going to fanficcer websites raises your blood pressure and makes you mad, why do you still harp about it? Do you enjoy this, in some way?
    See, at GAFF we laugh at the badfic, as well as cry out in pain. Our sides are either spilt from weeping as we see our fandoms mangled, or because we’re busting a gut with laughter at the sarcasm skills of our accquaintances. Even if I find a fic so awful, so depraved, that I just can’t laugh, I know for certain that someone on GAFF can ease that pain with their humorous witticisms.
    If you were laughing at badfic and enjoying poking fun at it, then I’d understand, but you really don’t seem to be laughing too much at this. You seem angry and offended.
    Why put yourself through this pain?
    Just curious. *wanders back out*
    ~TheScornfulRoman.

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  28. It’s complete and total garbage to say you’re a writer, so you had no choice, and I don’t know anyone who would cop such a pathetically weak excuse for why they did what they did. One always has the option of not acting on an idea that enters their head.
    If you have such a problem with fanfiction, why not do more than bitch about it, and write the authors you feel are being injured by fanfiction.
    To HelenKay, if an author doesn’t want “that kind of attention”, all they need to do is speak up and say they don’t want fanfic written about their creations and tell sites such as fanfiction.net to stop hosting fanfics involving their work. The huge majority of fans who noodle around with fanfic would, without question, stop if that’s what an author wanted.
    There are authors that are fully aware there’s lots of fanfic out there involving what their creation(s) and they are’t bothered in the least. So if the author doesn’t care others are using their characters, who’s being hurt if no money is made and credit is given to whom it is due?
    I’m truly confused how you’re a parasite if a story you write has a character created by another writer and you say up front that the character belongs to so and so, but if you were to write an academic paper that involved the character, so long as you cite your source, you’re fine. In my own life, I’ve noodled around with a fanfic that’s centered around the concept of what life would be like in the nation of Rohan, which Tolkien based on the Anglo-Saxons. I make it clear what is my creation, that being the few original characters I use to show what life would have been like in an Anglo-Saxon society, and what was created by Tolkien and is property of the Tolkien Estate. In that, I am a parasite. If I write an academic paper elaborating on and exploring the exact same areas as what I looked at in my story, using a fictional Anglo-Saxon family I created to use to illustrate something, as long as I cite what is Tolkien’s, there’s no problem. The only difference between the two is one is in narrative form and the other is written formally for the academic setting. So how are they different? Both focus on the work of Tolkien and draw from his writings. For both, I need to research Anglo-Saxon society and culture. In both, I clearly cite what is property of the Tolkien Estate.
    If your umbrage is with the purile, two-dimensional pap that is little more than a re-phrasing of what the author wrote originally, not everyone who writes fanfiction writes like that. If your umbrage is with slash, there are plenty of people who write fanfiction who don’t write slash. I, personally, don’t like it and some of the pairings do seem out of sync with what the author created. If your umbrage is with those that write explicit fics about the sex lives of characters, not all who write fanfic write those kinds of fics. Basically, whatever has you riled up six months after the last time you kvetched, take it up with those who do it, and cease tarring every single person who writes fanfic with the same brush.

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  29. There’s a conversation started again here regarding some aspects of fanfiction. It’s an essay regarding the chance that fanfiction is going to do itself in by insisting too much on its right to post what it wants and where it wants without regard to the audience or the original material.
    Little bit of background. A bunch of parents wandered into Fandom_Wank with questions, then started a blog to talk with the fic writers. Things were pretty polite for the most part and the ficcers were very nice to come talk with them. Apparently, questioning threatens and trolls fought hard to bring down the blog. People trolled on both sides, but by far it was people in fandom who didn’t want that blog to happen. The parents gave up and deleted.
    I don’t know if the new conversation will endure. The group running it are tougher and know how to handle trolls, so it may go differently.

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  30. All of this is very compelling, so perhaps one of the purveyors of the art of fan fiction can explain Galaxy Quest fan fiction. A movie that pokes fun at obsessive fans spawns its own fan fiction. What next, fan fiction based on the documentary Trekkies?

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  31. In response to the above question: “What is fanart?”
    It’s when you read a book, watch a movie, etc. and draw the characters/scenes you see or imagine.

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  32. You’re still going on about this? When you’re actually a real writer, I’ll listen, but that’d actually require you to have some measure of talent yourself. You’d also have to stop coming off as a prig in your arguments, too. CAlling someone a parasite and belitting them isn;t really the best way to convince people of anything, whether you’re the one who’s right or not.
    Most fanfic-writers I know how more talent in a fleck of skin than you’d have if you had two bodies, when they write original stories. Which is why I agree with you that it’s a shame that they don’t write as much original stories as they should, but I’d rather read a derivative work of theirs than any of your original fecal drivel anyway.
    And most fanfic-writers I know do take the original creator’s will into account when they write. Joce, who commented up there, pretty much writes in the spirit of JKR’s work and respects Rowling’s request that fanfic not have sex and whatnot in it due to the ages of the characters.
    Personally, I don’t really get all the hub-bub about this anyway. If it were my books, I’d be honored, and when I’m published I’m giving a thumbs up and a go-ahead. They can write child porn for all I care–nothing anyone will do will change my original story.

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  33. Ho, hum, this again, eh?
    Like others, I’m curious to know what you think of fan art – where fans take images from the TV and draw their own pictures.
    And sell them.
    And when I say sell them, it’s for serious gobs of money (if the art is good and they’re in the US, I’ve heard of fan art going for upwards of $200 a pop) or for piddling small amounts of money (if it’s not so good or they’re in the UK).
    As for filk…best not go there.

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  34. Although it’s hard to imagine there are any questions left to ask in this endless debate, apparently started whenever Lee is in the early stages of a book and needs to be distracted, I have one:
    Why are fanficcers so defensive?
    If, indeed, this is a harmless hobby, or a noble pursuit, or a God-given (Whedon-given?) right, why do all these fanficcers drive themselves into a fury when someone questions it? Why don’t they just go on with their hobby/pursuit/right, instead of spinning themselves into a frenzy defending themselves against a writer they’ve never heard of and never read?
    Is it possible that there’s a reason for this sensitivity? Just wondering…

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  35. I’ve never given any thought to fanart because, until today, I didn’t know it existed. It would be foolhardy of me to offer an opinion about something I know nothing about.
    The only reason I brought fanfic up again was in reaction to Meljean’s utterly inane posting (“I couldn’t help myself! I know fanfic is a violation of copyright and creative rights but I had to write it…because I’m a writer…and I had to post it on the Internet because I..I…I have a modem!”) on her blog, which was forwarded to me by a reader here.
    In reply to Huinesoron, I think it would be great if fanficcers made an effort to get the consent of the authors before writing and posting their stories. It would show a little courtesy and respect toward the authors and an acknowledgement of their creative rights to control the use of the characters and worlds they created. But you know fanficcers won’t…because they are terrified that the author/creator might say no and that is unacceptable to them.
    “Actually, there’s a point — some of the fanfic series’ get very possessive over their intellectual property. The PPC is one. We do tend to go after unauthorised spinoff authors with a vengeance. I think I just lost my own argument through rampant hypocrisy, didn’t I?”
    The hypocrisy doesn’t surprise me. It typifies the bizarre attitude of fanfic writers toward creative rights…they have them, nobody else does.

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  36. Bill,
    Fan fiction writers and readers get so upset because Lee treats them horribly. Between he and David and the names they call them, it’s no wonder people get defensive.
    Lee,
    I’m still waiting for the explanation on how you’re a real writer and the fan fic people aren’t. You take someone else’s characters and settings and write stories about them. The only difference is you have permission.
    Now, before you say that’s the difference, you have stated many times that it isn’t real writing unless you have created everything in the story from scratch. According to that definition, your DM books aren’t real writing. (At least that’s how I interpret what you’ve said in the past.)
    Both sides of this debate are right and both sides are wrong based on their own logical falicies.

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  37. The argument about plagiarism doesn’t really apply to me much. The two fandoms I spend most of my time in were created by people now dead (by 20 years and somewhere-around-2500 years), and if the rest ever end up illegal, I can just take myself on over to an RPG and live happily ever after there.
    However, I strongly disagree with the claim that fanfiction isn’t real writing. First of all, I’ve seen some original fiction that’s absolute crap, much worse than most fan fiction. Second, writing fanfic is a LOT like writing historical fiction. You have a set universe (or Earth) with set characters (or historical people) but since it’s impossible to record everything that happened to the characters and detail every minor subplot, there’s room for others to fill in with their ideas and possibilities. Copyrighting aside, the two forms are almost the same. Never mind that historical accounts are usually warped a little anyway, so using a historical “nonfiction” source is similar to using a copyrighted fiction work as the basis for one’s writing.
    Some fan fiction sucks and is ripping off someone else’s creation for one’s own plots that have little artistic value. But some of it is very much in the spirit of the original work, and every now and then, it’s as good as the original or better. And available for free.
    I think that’s the real reason that many paid authors hate fan fiction so much. They’re afraid people won’t pay for their work if they can get similar quality with the same characters for free. Rest assured that most real fans will read originals, and as long as they’re high-quality writing, will buy for them (as opposed to going to a library or borrowing the book from a friend).
    “Publishing” fanfic on the Internet for free is a good way for budding authors to get feedback and strengthen their skills. Fanfic writing is good practice for all types of writing and in particular it’s very beneficial to those who plan to write historical fiction, modern realistic fiction, or other works that are not wholly placed in one’s made-up universe. Isn’t that a good thing? If one really loves literature and the writing craft, why would there be an objection to letting new writers practice and develop their skills, and veteran writers to try out new styles and genres by getting their feet wet in fanfic? I can only think it comes down to money in the end. Sure, everyone has to pay the rent, but trodding on people to keep them from taking away 0.2% of your revenue so that they can create art… well, that just sounds to me like someone wants a monopoly.

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  38. why do all these fanficcers drive themselves into a fury when someone questions it?
    Oh, is there a register where you have to sign up to be annoyed about something someone says? Why didn’t someone tell me before?

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  39. The thing is you can’t possess ideas. Copyright law protects your right to make money off your ideas for a certain length of time. It does not protect your idea from being taken, developped further, twisted, caricatured, or simply taken into another direction if no monetary purpose is linked to that.
    If copyright would try to do that you would soon find out that it’s a law that cannot be enforced. Even if some archives were shut down, people would retreat to password-protected sites or to the paper circuit. You can rant all you like, fanfic is here to stay and much fun is had by all us ff writers and readers.
    If second and third class writers feel it endangers their revenues because many people refrain from buying published books (because they prefer reading fanfic) they’re most likely right, but who cares. Losses in published book sales are made up in more sold copies of movie and TV series DVDs (bought by fans and fanficcers) and first rate authors like the ones named above (JRRT, JKR etc.) won’t lose a penny or a cent anyway.
    The really good books will still be sold. It’s just the drivel that one would buy to waste some time that one can spare now because there’s much better quality to be had for free in fanfic if you know where to look.
    kete

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  40. Woo, the old gang’s all back… it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to see so many familiar names (yes, I was here before, as D.Kelly. I forgot what name I’d been using)
    Lee, please read /all/ the comments before responding. Gloria has already pointed out what I failed to — that the authors would get bored to death by answering thousands of emails from fans all saying ‘Can I write a fanfic based on your stuff?’. I mean, wouldn’t /you/?
    — and, incidentally, is it the legal issue that makes you claim fanfic authors are not writers, or the fact that they did not invent the characters themselves? Because if it’s the latter… well, J.R.R. Tolkien, who’s this slightly famous author, wrote a fanfic of Battle of Maldon. I doubt /he/ asked permission. Does it really matter that the author has been dead for centuries? It shouldn’t, not if your objection is to do with respect, rather than fanatical adherence to the law.

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  41. Having read through the whole page, David Montgomery wrote: I think “theft” sums it up nicely.
    David, David, we had this argument back in October. As I wrote then: Calling fanfic ‘stealing’ is red rag to a bull to fans – it would be as logical to call it arson or taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner. In fact, it would be more logical to call it taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner.
    And in another post, I don’t know about you, but I’ve an infinite number of things I’d rather be doing than bringing a costly action against someone who (chances are) has no money with which to pay damages even if I win, for merely the satisfaction of being proved right, despite the fact that it’ll be appalling publicity. Against that hiding to nothing, cutting off my toes with shears starts to look attractive.

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  42. “In fact, it would be more logical to call it taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner.”
    I wouldn’t recommend trying this at home. It’s called Grand Theft Auto… and I don’t mean the way cool video game.

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  43. Now, I’ve had an author steal my story word for word, take any and all praise received for the writing, and then have the audacity to tell me that I gave her permission to plagiarize me in the first place (which I did not). THAT was a parasite.
    Feel however you want to about fan fiction, but calling people names over deciding to write a fan fiction story that’s not *even* in your genre? “Grow up” indeed.
    I write fan fiction and I write original fiction. I enjoy both equally because I am doing what I love: writing. I don’t care if I ever make money doing it. I’ll write until I die or until my hands fall off. Give me a pad and pencil and I am a happy person.
    Having said that, I think it is unbelievably presumptious of you, or anyone else (be they an original or fan fiction author), to fix your mouth to tell someone what makes them a writer.
    Since you were NOT the first to put pen to paper, finger to type writer or keyboard, that is hardly a comment that you have the right to make.
    Many things go into making someone a writer, and their choice as in whether or not they choose to write fan fiction is hardly a prerequisite for getting into the “Good Writer’s Club” (a club, I’m sorry to say, that wouldn’t let you in the back door).
    I think it’s time for you to get off the soap box and move on, especially since your attacks on total strangers isn’t exactly doing anything remotely good for your public image. In the space of two hours, I have gone from feeling sorry for you to thinking that you are a total boob.
    If your going to whine, at least whine about something that’s worth a damn….like gas prices.

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  44. I write fanfiction and I read fanfiction. And while I wish Lee had taken a different tone, I have to admit that Meljean’s essay only reinforces all the negative stereotypes about fanfiction writers. She didn’t do fanfic authors like myself any favors — and neither have most of the people who have commented to Lee’s post. I cringe when I read what you’re saying to Lee even more than I did when I read his reply to Meljean.
    I write fanfic because there are aspects of the characters I’d like to explore that the series, for whatever reason, hasn’t. I post those stories because I think other fans might enjoy them. Is what I am doing copyright infringement? Yes. I admit its shaky ground to say that if the authors don’t publicly object, and if corporations don’t sue us, then we have their implicit consent to do whatever we want. That’s the excuse I’ve been using for years, and let’s face it, we know it’s an excuse. The more I think about it, I think Lee is right about something: We should ask for the authors explicit consent. From now on, I will. And if they say no, then I won’t post my stories (I may write them for my own, personal enjoyment but not publish or post them).
    It also doesn’t help our image when we attack Lee by saying he has no right to criticize fanfic or speak for the authors he believes have been wronged. You say it’s wrong for him to do that, but it’s okay for us to assume TV creators or novelists have no problem with fanfic, to in essense speak for them, simply because they haven’t spent the time and money to sue us.
    If we had permission from the creators & novelists to write fanfiction, most of the negative criticism about us would disappear (except on the subject of slash). It’s a simple solution.
    Beth

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  45. Black Pearl wrote:

    Having said that, I think it is unbelievably presumptious of you, or anyone else (be they an original or fan fiction author), to fix your mouth to tell someone what makes them a writer.

    Before I reply, let me direct you back to the comment that raised your ire. I wrote:

    You don’t have the slightest inking of what it means to be a writer or any respect for other writers. A writer creates characters and stories and respects the creative rights of his colleagues. You are a plagiarist. A creative parasite. To call yourself “a writer” to justify your creative theft and Internet publication of your work disrespects every real writer you steal from.

    I think that excerpt is self-explanatory, but I’ll try again.
    Meljean was using the excuse that she’s “a writer” as the reason why she had no choice but to write fanfic and post it on the net. Calling yourself a writer, in my opinion, involves more than the ability, talent and desire to express ideas with the written word. It’s having respect for words, ideas, and imagination…and for the people who live by them. When someone steals the creative work of writers and adopts it as their own, that person isn’t a writer. That person is a plagarist.

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  46. David,
    Haven’t you paid attention in the past? I’ve always been on the “dark side” on this issue. While admitting I’m in the wrong on it, more then likely. As I said last time this issue came up, show me a person who is breathing, and I’ll show you a hypocrite.
    Then again, I don’t resort to name calling.

    Reply
  47. “In fact, it would be more logical to call it taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner.”
    David Montgomery wrote: I wouldn’t recommend trying this at home. It’s called Grand Theft Auto… and I don’t mean the way cool video game.
    Not where I’m from. Where I’m from stealing cars (joyriding) is called, “Taking a vehicle without the consent of the owner.” Rather, in fact, as copyright infringement is called ‘copyright infringement’, not ‘theft’.

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  48. The “authors do?” You’re generalizing again, Lee, I seem to recall that JK Rowling, the most popular author of our day, is not only permissive of but supportive of fanwriters’ activities. So is Joss Whedon, creator of the Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel series. The great JRR Tolkien himself said he WANTED people to write more stories based in his fantasy worlds of Middle Earth and Arda.What gives YOU the right to speak for them?

    I don’t speak for them and they have obviously spoken for themselves. And if JK Rowling and Joss Whedon have no problem with fanfic based on their work, I certainly don’t.
    I am only speaking for myself. This is, after all, my blog…which is nothing more than a place where I share my views with others.

    My reason for not asking permission is simple–I’m not taking anything. All I’m doing is expessing an idea–a speculation or wishful thinking. Fanwriters acknowledge that our work is not the Real Thing and will never measure up to the Real Thing that the original author–you–puts out. We (well, the majority of us, anyway) give the original author every respect and tribute.

    You obviously don’t see the huge contradiction in that statement. You say you respect the author, and yet you dismiss writing stories based on their characters and words as “not taking anything from them.” Of course you are! You are taking their creations, without permission, and having them say and do things that, perhaps, the author himself would not approve of. You may not get that, but who are you to decide? Should you let the authors decide if you are taking anything from them?
    If you really respect the authors, why not pay them the “tribute” of asking for permission? If they, like JK Rowling and Joss Whedon say they have no problem with it, then you can go forth knowing you are, indeed, respecting their wishes.

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  49. If we had permission from the creators & novelists to write fanfiction, most of the negative criticism about us would disappear (except on the subject of slash). It’s a simple solution.

    I agree with you, Beth.
    And while JK Rowling may have no problem with fanfic, I am willing to bet she doesn’t approve of, or endorse, slash stories with her characters.

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  50. Rommel, you’re right, joyriding isn’t GTA. I was making a little joke. But I looked up the law in a few states (the ones that popped up first were CA, MD & NH) and it is classified as theft. I also don’t see any significant difference between copyright infringment and theft of intellectual property.
    (Note that I’m not the one comparing writing fanfic to stealing someone’s car. I don’t think they’re comparable.)

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  51. Lee, please read /all/ the comments before responding. Gloria has already pointed out what I failed to — that the authors would get bored to death by answering thousands of emails from fans all saying ‘Can I write a fanfic based on your stuff?’. I mean, wouldn’t /you/?

    That’s a laughably cheap excuse for not seeking permission. All it takes is ONE public response from the writer saying “Go ahead, write fanfic based on my characters, it’s fine with me” to give all fanfic writers the consent they need. So what are you really afraid of? I think we both know what it is. The author, creator, publisher or studio saying no.
    On a seperate note. I find it ironic that fanficcers believe they can write whatever they want based on a TV series or book…but will scream in outrage and sue any producer or author they think may have “stolen” from them for an episode or novel in the series.
    The sad truth is, if Ron Moore were to say “Write all the BATTLESTAR fanfic you want, I don’t care,” he would still be advices by the studio not to look at a word of BG fanfic himself for fear of a lawsuit.
    Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy there?

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  52. “When someone steals the creative work of writers and adopts it as their own, that person isn’t a writer. That person is a plagarist.”
    Exactly. Anyone who would take someone else’s work and say “Hey! Look at what I did!” is absolutely a plagerist. Someone who would write something that draws support from other sources and cites those sources where and when appropriate is doing exactly what you’re taught to do so you’re not passing off someone else’s idea as your own.

    Reply
  53. “Lee Goldberg wrote:
    (Jocelyn wrote:
    My reason for not asking permission is simple–I’m not taking anything. All I’m doing is expessing an idea–a speculation or wishful thinking. Fanwriters acknowledge that our work is not the Real Thing and will never measure up to the Real Thing that the original author–you–puts out. We (well, the majority of us, anyway) give the original author every respect and tribute.)
    You obviously don’t see the huge contradiction in that statement. You say you respect the author, and yet you dismiss writing stories based on their characters and words as “not taking anything from them.” Of course you are! You are taking their creations, without permission, and having them say and do things that, perhaps, the author himself would not approve of. You may not get that, but who are you to decide? Should you let the authors decide if you are taking anything from them?”
    In the area of ideas? Honestly, no. Once again, I fail to see how an author LOSES anything. To “take” or “steal,” as you’ve categorized fanfiction, is to “deprive” the author of something.
    Again, what do you LOSE by someone writing fanfic?
    That’s one area where copyright law leans heavily in the fanwriter’s favor. The idea/fact itself cannot be POSSESSED. After all, how long is this right that you claim for yourself supposed to last? How long can you POSSESS this character/concept to the exclusion of everyone else who might be inspired or might want to dream up some adventures for them?
    This attitude smacks of a child clutching a toy to himself and screaming that no one else can EVER, EVER play with it, because it is HIS.
    Fanfiction is not stealing. At the absolute worst, it is borrowing. You have lost no rights, no control over your characters. No one will stop reading your books or stop watching your shows because somewhere on the internet, someone is writing kooky things about them.
    My novel is historical fiction, based on Plutarch’s “Romulus” and Livy’s “History of Rome.” By your reckoning, I’m stealing them, even though I cite the material, becaue I’m exploring a different angle of the story!
    To possess an idea completely is to stifle it in the worst possible way. YOU cannot possibly write about all possible angles/side stories/points of view of “Diagnosis Murder” and whatnot. No author can. Why is it such a crime that other writers, be they amateur fans or profesionals, might want to explore the storylines that you haven’t had the time/interest to write about?
    And I admit that there are some fanwriters out there who might try to sue an original author for going down a path in the real published work that the fanwriter has gone down in their fanfic. That is wrong, I concede. And they’d lose in court, as well they should. (They should also be flogged for spoiling the fun for fans and professionals alike, but that’s another story.)
    But the majority of fanwriters would not behave that way. For those of us who write mock “6th book” Harry Potter fanfic while waiting for Book 6 to come out, if we find that JK Rowling has indeed gone down similar paths that we wrote in our fanfic, our most likely reaction is, “YAY! I was write! I called it!”
    But no one will ever deny that the real thing is better. (Well, no one sane anyway.)

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  54. “I think it’s time for you to get off the soap box and move on, especially since your attacks on total strangers isn’t exactly doing anything remotely good for your public image. ”
    Ummm… this is Lee’s blog. It is his soap box. He can say whatever he wants.
    Seems to me the people who should “move on” are the ones who keep clicking over to this site… only to get outraged by the face he won’t change his mind.
    If you’re offended by what Lee says, STOP COMING TO HIS BLOG. Then you won’t be offended anymore.
    Geeze, is that so hard?

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  55. I guess I was a little rude, and so I appologize, but in response to a post made by FanFic Fan:
    “It also doesn’t help our image when we attack Lee by saying he has no right to criticize fanfic or speak for the authors he believes have been wronged.”
    I really could care less what Lee Goldburg thinks of me, since the first time I learned of him was by viewing his rants at a forum for fan fiction authors/readers, and as I mentioned, my over all opinion of him and his writing is low anyway.
    It’s just that I was a little upset because by his reasoning, *I’m* a creative parasite.
    He turned a matter that didn’t remotely concern him into a campaign against the EVIL! that is the fan fiction author. And seeing as he doesn’t really know her, or if she exclusively writes fan fiction, he didn’t have any right to tell her that she “wasn’t a writer”, or to suggest that her actions make her a “parasite”.
    As for the authors he feels have been wronged…do they really need him to speak for them? If he’s that adamant about her actions, why not just report her? They can speak for themselves.
    And to answer Goldburg directly:
    “Calling yourself a writer, in my opinion, involves more than the ability, talent and desire to express ideas with the written word. It’s having respect for words, ideas, and imagination…and for the people who live by them. When someone steals the creative work of writers and adopts it as their own, that person isn’t a writer. That person is a plagarist.”
    She admitted to using the characters, but she did NOT claim them as her own. She even said that if she were asked to “cease and desist”, she would do so. Yes, she admitted to taking comic characters that didn’t belong to her and creating stories. Stories, that I assume weren’t word for word copies of DC comics. So then, what does that make her? A fan fic author.
    Many of us are writing because we are gracefully allowed to do so. That doesn’t make us “parasites”, it just makes us fans who want to write stories about our favorite characters.
    If she feels she’s stealing characters and what she’s doing is wrong, ultimately, that’s for DC Comics to decide. And as to whether or not she is a “writer”, that’s certainly not up to you to decide. I do stand by that opinion.

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  56. “show me a person who is breathing, and I’ll show you a hypocrite.”
    I doubt this can stand much scrutiny. Maybe as the mother of all equivocations possibly.

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  57. “If you’re offended by what Lee says, STOP COMING TO HIS BLOG. Then you won’t be offended anymore.
    Geeze, is that so hard?”
    1.) That was my first post on the matter, not to mention my first visit to his blog.
    2.) I’m not referring to the blog as his soap box. Hey, I own a live journal.
    I was referring to his never ending need to bash fan fiction authors, ALL fan fiction authors (generalization is not fun). Even though I’ve only learned about him and his blog today (I had no idea he wrote for DM), it seems to me that he’s been going on about it for quite some time.
    That is what I meant by “getting off the soap box”.
    3.) I don’t think it will be that hard to leave him alone, since aside from any amusement I get from the board discussions related to this whole situation, I’ll probably forget about this blog within the next few days.
    I do want to thank Mr. Goldberg though; he has reawakened my interest in wanting to write fan fiction. I was simply reading it, but this whole discussion has made me feel like getting back to it. Thanks!

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  58. On a seperate note. I find it ironic that fanficcers believe they can write whatever they want based on a TV series or book…but will scream in outrage and sue any producer or author they think may have “stolen” from them for an episode or novel in the series.
    You’re over-generalizing there, Mr. Goldberg. You say ‘FANFICCERS’ (plural form there, with absolutely no identification of any particular fandom, so I assume you mean all fanficcers of all fandoms) will ‘scream in outrage and sue any producer or author they think may have stolen from them.’
    Don’t you see how H U G E this generalization is, and how much it smears fans in general? How *many* fans have sued authors or producers over alledged ‘theft’ of a fanfic author’s ideas? How many cases of that are/were out there? Give me a concrete, reliable number of them.
    I say that fans who do that are not really fans at all. They are the fanfic world’s version of celebrity-stalkers. But do they represent all ‘fanficcers’? No. Are all ‘fanficcers’ ready to destroy and ruin the careers and lives of those who create the fiction they love? No, absolutely not. There are nutjobs and unstable people in every fan group, but that doesn’t mean they are always a perfect representation of the whole group.
    ~TheScornfulRoman

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  59. Goldberg didn’t call all fanfiction writers parasites, he called Meljean one. She is. She sucks the creativity from an unwilling host.
    And I love her daring Goldberg to write DC and turn her in. She’s not just a parasite, she’s a gutless, whiny, parasite.
    I have a better idea, Meljean: why don’t YOU write DC and ask for permission to write Batman fanfiction and post it on your site?
    She won’t and we all know why: because she’s terrified they’ll say no or, worse, threaten her with a lawsuit.

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  60. She admitted to using the characters, but she did NOT claim them as her own. She even said that if she were asked to “cease and desist”, she would do so.

    How thoughtful of her. How about if she wrote to DC and asked for permission first?

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  61. If she feels she’s stealing characters and what she’s doing is wrong, ultimately, that’s for DC Comics to decide. And as to whether or not she is a “writer”, that’s certainly not up to you to decide. I do stand by that opinion.

    It would be nice if she gave DC comics the opportunity to decide. Instead, she does it first and waits to see if they notice. That’s a little disingenuous, don’t you think?
    You’re right, though, it’s not up to me to decide. I never said that it was. All I’m doing here, on my blog, is stating an opinion. You are certainly free to disagree with it (and if I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t allow your comments, and those of others, on my blog, would I?)

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  62. That’s a laughably cheap excuse for not seeking permission. All it takes is ONE public response from the writer saying “Go ahead, write fanfic based on my characters, it’s fine with me” to give all fanfic writers the consent they need. So what are you really afraid of? I think we both know what it is. The author, creator, publisher or studio saying no.
    In that case, let me see who I’ve ever written fanfic on. Tolkien – he said it’s okay. Pratchett – fine, as long as he doesn’t see it, because he once had to alter part of a book to make it different to a fanfic to prevent a fanwriter sueing him (which, I agree, is a completely stupid thing to do. I’d be flattered if an author chose to take one of my plot points). Anne McCaffrey, who I may write on in the future has recently changed her views on fanfic, and issued a public statement saying it’s fine, except she doesn’t want people to write slash. I don’t do slash, so that’s fine. Who else… well, the PPC itself, of course, but I’ve got that permission… Labyrinth? I don’t even know who would be able to make a decision on that. Isn’t Jim Henson dead? And, let’s see, I have one Star Wars ‘fic, based on some of the Expanded Universe novels. I suppose I’d need to contact George Lucas or the author of the book in question, who I can’t remember right now. Would you like me to do that? Those two stories, the Labyrinth and Star Wars ones, are only short pieces, and mostly introspective. Actually, the Laby one isn’t all that good… I might take it down just on general principles.
    So, want me to spend some of the time I should be spending on the lab report I have to hand in tomorrow trying to find out what those organisations think og fanfic? Or can it wait until the weekend?

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  63. Ach, forgot to add my actual /point/… if I either take those stories down or provide evidence that the people in question don’t mind, will you be willing to withdraw all accusations of parasitism and/or plagiarism from me?

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  64. Well at least it keeps them from competing in the literary marketplace. That’s crowded enough already, but fanficcers should brace themselves for infringement suits should the owners decide to pursue it. There isn’t much to discover.

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  65. Ach, forgot to add my actual /point/… if I either take those stories down or provide evidence that the people in question don’t mind, will you be willing to withdraw all accusations of parasitism and/or plagiarism from me?

    If Jim Henson and George Lucas don’t mind you writing and posting fanfic based on their characters, why should anyone else?

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  66. Just have to say, Lee was absolutely right to call me out on the inane nature of the part he quoted.
    As soon as I posted that essay I was cringing, because in no way do I ascribe to some New-Agey theory of writing. I did make it sound like I sat down and had some Muse of Batman take over me, when that’s not what it was at all. I had a story to tell, and I deliberately crafted it. I put it on the Internet to share it with my geek friends. I made decisions that Lee will never agree with, but it was a decision. I made more decisions after that he would continue to disagree with.
    There was no magical compulsion involved at all, but I realize that I sounded dumb enough that it can (and obviously was) interpreted that way.
    And he was right, it sounded stupid.

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  67. Meljean,
    What’s stopping you from sending DC Comics a letter asking them if you can write, and post on the Internet, fanfiction based on their characters?

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  68. “”Lee, please read /all/ the comments before responding. Gloria has already pointed out what I failed to — that the authors would get bored to death by answering thousands of emails from fans all saying ‘Can I write a fanfic based on your stuff?’. I mean, wouldn’t /you/? ”
    That’s a laughably cheap excuse for not seeking permission. All it takes is ONE public response from the writer saying “Go ahead, write fanfic based on my characters, it’s fine with me” to give all fanfic writers the consent they need. So what are you really afraid of? I think we both know what it is. The author, creator, publisher or studio saying no.”
    But until the author choses to post such a message publically they will get bugged by fans. And some fandoms are pretty hard to even figure out who to ask permission from. Shouldn’t that be up to the author? You can bet your booties that DC Comics sure as hell does know about fanfiction, it just doesn’t care. If it did care we would know about it by now.
    Are we supposed to not write in fandoms where the copywrite holders don’t give a flying fuck about fanfiction?
    What if you are a fan of an anime series that hasn’t been licenced for the US yet? Who would you ask? And what would you do if you didn’t get a response? What if the creator of the original story has been dead for some time, like whoever first created Beowulf?
    Or is it only stories that can be sold the only ones worth writing? Is that what this about, money? Are you so frightened by the fact that there are people who can write well, perhaps better then you, and do it for free?
    “On a seperate note. I find it ironic that fanficcers believe they can write whatever they want based on a TV series or book…but will scream in outrage and sue any producer or author they think may have “stolen” from them for an episode or novel in the series.”
    Um, I mentioned one crazy fan who ruined it for a lot of people. One fan, one lawsuit. One fan out of hundreds of thousands. I bet there are far more loan sharks who are named ‘Lee’ then there are crazy fans who sue original authors. The point I was trying to make was that the legality of fanfiction is not clear, and could easily be in the fanwriter’s favor should it ever come to court. This is not a black and white issue.
    “The sad truth is, if Ron Moore were to say “Write all the BATTLESTAR fanfic you want, I don’t care,” he would still be advices by the studio not to look at a word of BG fanfic himself for fear of a lawsuit.
    Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy there?”
    Um, no? I think it is common sense, really. Just as it is common sense for a fan not to send their fanfiction to their favorite author. Most authors who have made a statement about fanfiction usually say ‘it’s fine as long as I don’t see it’. Lawyers are notoriously conservative, anyway.

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  69. W”hat if the creator of the original story has been dead for some time, like whoever first created Beowulf?”
    Our copyright laws, as established in the Constitution and revised over the years, give the creator of the work exclusive ownership for a certain period of years. (Right now, because of heavy lobbying by Disney and a few other media corporations, it’s 90 years past the death of the author.) The idea was — and is — that the creator and his immediate heirs should share in the fruits of that creation, and then it should be passed along into the common culture.
    And while I am not Lee Goldberg, I know him well enough to know that he shares this view.
    In other words: Buffy — fanfic.
    Beowulf — not fanfic.

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  70. Lee,
    I’m still waiting for the explanation on how you’re a real writer and the fan fic people aren’t. You take someone else’s characters and settings and write stories about them. The only difference is you have permission.
    Now, before you say that’s the difference, you have stated many times that it isn’t real writing unless you have created everything in the story from scratch. According to that definition, your DM books aren’t real writing. (At least that’s how I interpret what you’ve said in the past.)
    Both sides of this debate are right and both sides are wrong based on their own logical falicies.

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  71. “How about if she wrote to DC and asked for permission first?”
    DC doesn’t give a shit. It’s already hired at least one writer who was a fanficcer before then (Devin Grayson, now on Nightwing) and there’s always been a big fanzine community around comics w/ fics & art. Loads of writers & artists came up from them.
    And how can you use the “she’s disrespecting the authors right to control their own creations” for _Batman and Wonder Woman_? The original creators have been dead for years, they never owned the rights to them in the first place and the current creative teams are often former fans & all doing work-for-hire. I doubt Judd Winick is going to get all hot and bothered about Batman fanfic when he’s living the fans dream of writing the actual comic.

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  72. David — people probably /do/, but I’m referring to the 1986 (I think it was ’86… possibly ’84) film Labyrinth, starring David Bowie, Jennifer Connelly, and, yes, a lot of muppets. But not Kermit.
    And I didn’t write about the muppets.
    — oh, here’s a question, a serious question. If we’re writing about characters portrayed in a film, should we be required to get the permission of the actor as well as the creator? How about the scriptwriter? After all, they’re the one who actually /wrote/ the character in question. I’m just curious here. Because if someone wrote fanfic based on a book of mine, I wouldn’t care, but if someone wrote a story about a character I’d played on-screen, and made me do freaky things, I might get a little more Grr-Hiss-Must-Kill-Fanwriters-For-The-Good-Of-Me-kind. So…?

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  73. I really would like to know how you account for books like Jasper Fforde’s The Eyre Affair where he uses characters such as Mr. Rochester and Jane Eyre. Or what about Wole Soyinka’s play, Death and the King’s Horseman, which is another interpretation of Oba Waja’s The King is Dead? Or Woody Allen’s “The Kugelmass Episode” where he uses Flaubert’s Emma Bovary?

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  74. Lee,
    Why are you arguing with a bunch of TWMs (Twelve-year-olds With Modems)? Don’t you know they have homework to do?

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  75. Gloria & Charles,
    Excuses, Excuses, Excuses. PATHETIC excuses: “The authors/creators/studios/publishers haven’t sued me for my fanfic yet so that means they don’t mind if I do it” or “The rights to the characters are owned by a big bad corporation, so fuck’em.”
    Bottom line: you’re sniveling cowards. The ONLY REASON you don’t ask for permission is because you’re afraid they’ll say no. “Dear Creator of Veronica Mars: I love Veronica Mars. It’s a cool show. Is it okay if I write a fanfic where Veronica Mars has sex with her Dad and post it on the net?” Of course they’re gonna say no and you know it. So you come up with your sniveling coward excuses.
    Did it occur to you sniveling cowards that the writers/creators don’t have the time or the money or the resouces to search out every piece of atrocious fanfic based on their characters that’s posted on the net every day?
    Did it occur to you sniveling cowards that when the writers/creators sell their work to a big bad corporation they a) gave the big bad corporation the exclusive right to the characters and how they are used in all media?

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  76. I find it pretty rich for someone who can’t write for shit (being paid for it doesn’t mean it is good) to throw all fanfic writers on a heap and call them pathetic.
    It’s a hobby, get over it. God forbid someone would have fun posting their own ideas of what their favorite characters might and could have been if the story evolved the way they imagined it, the world would go down!
    Yes, a lot of fanfic burns, but so does the majority of crap ‘professional’ pulp fic. And for the record, I don’t write it, I just read it, and bitch out the worser ones myself. It does save on money, I get the good and the bad for free, just as I would paying for it at the bookstore. And no, haven’t bought anything of yours, quotes of your crap is posted far and wide all over the internet too. Methinks you have something worse to worry about than fanfic; like say: the quality of your own writing.

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  77. You know, if we could somehow harness the passion surrounding this topic, we could cure cancer! Granted, that wouldn’t be half as much fun.
    For the record, Lee’s actually a pretty decent writer. His DM novels are surpisingly good for books with a big Dick on the cover.

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  78. Beat the dead horse! Yeah! Beat that dead horse and show it who’s boss! Yeah!
    I think it’s time we all sat down and had some “happy time” thinking about something other than “who shot John”.
    Or perhaps we should take Mark Sloan, and use him like a puppet! What do you think gang?
    Dr. Sloan: “That sounds like a great idea!”
    Bwahahaha! I will tweak Lee Goldberg and lo, he shalt feel the wrath of the fan fic writers who mock his attempts to silence them. And when he is dead there will be tea parties on the ceiling to rejoice.
    Take that intellectual property and shove it!
    -Jake
    Side note: The following was neither sane nor serious, and taking it as such will incur a punishment as follows: You will be labeled an ignorant buffoon for a fortnight, and will eat no ham every second Tuesday in November.

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  79. Didn’t Lee create the DM characters? He wrote and produced the show, but of course I didn’t and still don’t know the initial behind the scenes story. I was just an extra.

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  80. Joyce Burditt created DIAGNOSIS MURDER, Lee Goldberg & William Rabkin ran the show for a few years (the best years!) and wrote most of the episodes (the best episodes!). Jesse is my favorite character.

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  81. It’s thanks to writing fanfiction that I developed true abilities to write. Thanks to that, I won contests and thanks to that I’m working on my way to becoming a published writer. Years ago, I liked The Vampire Chronicles. I wanted to write about them. When I learned that Anne Rice didnt’ aprove fanfiction, I didn’t write them.
    I’m not taking anything. I’m not doing money. I’m doing it for fun. I hope people write fanfic of my work when it’s published. You know why? Because that will mean that my work is read and liked. That maybe there’ll be stuff that I won’t like? For sure. But if I get to inspire just ONE person to be a writer, thanks to my work, it’ll all be worth it.
    If fanfiction bothers you so much, you could… you know… not read it. Pretend it’s not there. Ignore it exists. You would be so much happier then.

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  82. [“The authors/creators/studios/publishers haven’t sued me for my fanfic yet so that means they don’t mind if I do it” or “The rights to the characters are owned by a big bad corporation, so fuck’em.”]
    Actually, ‘Disgusted’, it’s “the corporation doesn’t give a flying fuck”. Which you’d know if you, say, _read_ what was posted or knew anything about DC Comics.

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  83. Mark A York: fanficcers should brace themselves for infringement suits should the owners decide to pursue it.
    “Fanficcers” (not a term I would use) have been braced for exactly that for at least the last at least thirty years, if not forty, and nothing much has happened so far other than the odd cease and desist letter, which is usually complied with. I’m basing the time estimate on my knowledge of the publication dates of the first fan stories in fanzine format, building on the already existing methods and contacts used by SF fans, around Star Trek. That was in the early ’70s. And let’s not forget, these fanzines were non-profit but for sale, not usually distributed for free.
    Had the copyright holder(s) wanted to stop fan fiction that was the window in which they should have done so; thirty years on, I think, is too late. The opportunity has long since passed.
    Bill Rabkin wrote:
    In other words: Buffy — fanfic.
    Beowulf — not fanfic.

    Logic, thy name is not Bill Rabkin. There seems to me to be no logical difference between borrowing your characters and ideas from Beowulf, the Mabinogion, or Arthurian legend (poor old Mallory!) and borrowing them from Buffy, Star Trek or Tolkein. You seem to have swallowed the business model hook, line and sinker; what’s strictly legal or good for a massive corporation isn’t necessarily good in general, obvious, logical or moral.
    Fan fiction probably is what we call copyright infringement, but frankly that doesn’t bother me too much when I see works on sale which are worse written, and far more derivative. If creativity is such a good thing, let everyone (including Lee, writer of tedious whodunits and dubious spinoffs) create in the fullest meaning of the term, and try to convince publishers to take that, not stick to the pastiches and retreads which seem sometimes to be all there is to buy on our shelves. No wonder fanfiction gets written, when these are their example.
    When Beowulf was being written, or written down, I think the people alive at the time would have been astonished at the idea that a ‘character’ or ‘situation’ could belong to anyone at all. Times change, but people’s minds, at bottom, don’t – created characters, once they have been shared, are still seen as, well, shared.
    From the person who helpfully signs themselves as ‘Disgusted’ (tell me, do you live in Tunbridge Wells? If not, perhaps “Dusgusted of Tunbridge Wells” should sue) The ONLY REASON you don’t ask for permission is because you’re afraid they’ll say no.
    The reason I personally don’t ask for permission is because the creators of the original sources for which I write fanfic have already given their permission, or are dead. I suppose I could hold a séance, “Tell me, Terry Nation, may I write fanfic? Two knocks for yes, one knock for…oh, I forgot you already said it was OK when you were alive. Move on to Tolkein, tell me J R R…”

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  84. Lee, since I am by your definition a “real” writer, I feel qualified to tell you that you’re way out of line with this kind of rant.
    Feel what you want about fanfiction and those who author it, but keep your opinions to yourself. No amount of whining, or spectacularly off-base criticism is going to make the stuff go away, and in the meantime you’re just going to make an ass out of yourself. I mean, do you really want to make a name for yourself as the next John Ordover?
    Beyond creating original material, there’s one other thing writers do: they behave professionally. Try it.

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  85. “I mean, do you really want to make a name for yourself as the next John Ordover?”
    Trust me. I’ve dealt with the man. Lee’s in no danger of that until he starts editing a tie-in series.

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  86. Without contributing anything to the discussion, I noticed a mention of Jasper Fforde. Looking back in Lee’s blog, there’s actually a post about how Fforde doesn’t like fanfic. Does that seem a little hypocritical to you, considering what he writes? — he doesn’t adress it as a legal issue, he just says he’s protective over his characters. Hello, Mr. Fforde? This is your logic calling…

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  87. Bill:
    Why are fanficcers so defensive?
    I dunno, maybe it’s because most people don’t really like being called a parasite? If Lee were to express his ideas and opinions without the personal attacks, he’d probably get less people pissed off. I mean, there are countless people who make the same arguments as him, but what rankles people so much about Mr. Goldberg is that he generally seems to give off this air of “fanfic-writers are less than human” or something. And most people wouldn’t even take that sort of attitude from their own mothers. Nor should they.
    If you’re offended by what Lee says, STOP COMING TO HIS BLOG. Then you won’t be offended anymore.
    Geeze, is that so hard?

    If he really doesn’t want comments, he can find some way to turn them off. Obviously by writing and allowing comments, and by not saying he doesn’t want to discuss his topics, he wants feedback. That’s generally the way most blogs work.
    Duh.
    Percy:
    Why are you arguing with a bunch of TWMs (Twelve-year-olds With Modems)? Don’t you know they have homework to do?
    Way to generalize, dink. The people commenting here range from teens to middle-age, from high-schoolers to college and law students too career-persons and published authors. Did I mention you’re a dink for generalizing? Oh yeah, I did. I think I’ll mention it again: dink.
    It’s this attitude that pisses all the people here off. Most of them would argue calmly and civilly, and half of them wouldn’t even argue at all if they weren’t treated like shite and belittled.
    THAT’S the problem I have with Mr. Goldberg and the pack of brainless fan-poodles that chime in his defence (like yourself), Bill. It’s not his argument that bothers me so much as how he–and you–go about arguing it.
    Honestly, I’d love to have a civil discussion with him him about the topic, but he reeks of arrogance and other holier-than-thou shite, so I mostly just feel compelled to be defensive and even nastier back.
    Plus, all these insinuations that he’s a real writer and fanficcers aren’t annoys the piss out of me as the original fiction (and even fanfics) of many writers I know don’t leave me snoring like “The Walk” did.

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  88. “Fan fiction probably is what we call copyright infringement, but frankly that doesn’t bother me too much when I see works on sale which are worse written, and far more derivative. ”
    Boosting a Honda is probably what we call Grand Theft Auto, but frankly that doesn’t bother me too much when I see cars on sale that are so badly made.

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  89. “If you’re offended by what Lee says, STOP COMING TO HIS BLOG. Then you won’t be offended anymore.
    If he really doesn’t want comments, he can find some way to turn them off. Obviously by writing and allowing comments, and by not saying he doesn’t want to discuss his topics, he wants feedback. That’s generally the way most blogs work. ”
    I never suggested Lee didn’t want comments. He’s the one poking the monkeys with a stick and watching them dance — of course he wants comments.
    That doesn’t answer why all these people who find Lee’s comments so outrageous don’t just ignore him. It’s not like he’s taking out billboards across the street from your window. He’s posting them on his blog, and you people are coming from all over to be outraged.

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  90. “If you’re offended by what Lee says, STOP COMING TO HIS BLOG. Then you won’t be offended anymore.
    If he really doesn’t want comments, he can find some way to turn them off. Obviously by writing and allowing comments, and by not saying he doesn’t want to discuss his topics, he wants feedback. That’s generally the way most blogs work. ”
    I never suggested Lee didn’t want comments. He’s the one poking the monkeys with a stick and watching them dance — of course he wants comments.
    That doesn’t answer why all these people who find Lee’s comments so outrageous don’t just ignore him. It’s not like he’s taking out billboards across the street from your window. He’s posting them on his blog, and you people are coming from all over to be outraged.

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  91. Bill Rabkin wrote: That doesn’t answer why all these people who find Lee’s comments so outrageous don’t just ignore him.
    Why should they? If he’s posted them, presumably he expects someone to take some notice. I think I mentioned once before the story of a friend who said, “Why do you despise me?” and was upset and surprised to be told, “Because you’re despicable.” In the case of fanfiction writers, it’s more, “Why are you defending yourselves?” and the answer is, “Because we’ve been attacked.”
    Boosting a Honda is probably what we call Grand Theft Auto
    “Boosting”? I think (as I told David, earlier) that’s probably, though I cannot be sure because I don’t pretend to properly understand your vernacular, what we’d call “twocing”. If I’m right, car theft is unlikely to bother me as I have never owned a car.
    A pity, though, that you can’t respond reasonably to the points that I made.

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  92. Bill — two reasons.
    1) It’s /fun/ to be outraged.
    2) It’s really fun to be outraged in a group We’re a community. If you attack one, you get the lot of us — except the ‘Suvians (badfic writers in general, and yes, I realise I’m using the term inaccurately), and even they were on the verge of joining in last time. I think that would be fun, but they’re not here, so we’ll have to do.
    The point is, an attack is an attack, wherever it’s made. Would you be quite happy to let it slide if I took one of your hobbies and made posts about it on my blog, saying that you were a plagiarist and a parasite?

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  93. “If fanfiction bothers you so much, you could… you know… not read it. Pretend it’s not there. Ignore it exists. You would be so much happier then.”
    By the same token, people who disagree with Lee’s stance on fanfic could ignore his rants against it. But where would the fun in that be? Look at all the entertainment we’d miss out on!

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  94. I agree with David on this — Lee-baiting (or fanauthor-baiting, depending on your perspective) is /way/ too much fun to miss out on. Maybe we /should/ bring the Suvians into this, their inability to spell would bring us many happy hours deciphering their obscenity-ridden utterings.

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  95. Oh! Yes, I remember the point I was going to make now. It’s about why fanficcers get very protective of our work, but don’t see this as a reason to stop writing stuff based on professionals’ works.
    As a professional author, you earn money for your work. People writing fanfiction will not stop you earning money, unless you are a very /bad/ professional author whose fanwriters far outdo you. But, in general, you get exactly what you’d get anyway, with possibly some more readers sent to you by fanfic (example: I’d never have developed enough of a Tolkien obsession to buy all twelve of the History of Middle-earth books had it not been for fanfic).
    However, if you are a fanfic writer, /all/ you get out of it — from other people, that is, there’s an element of doing it for yourself, too — is respect and praise. That’s the maximum you’ll ever achieve. If someone else starts using your ideas without permission, they take the credit for your works — something, I hasten to add, fanficcers do /not/ do with regards to professional stuff, unless they misword their disclaimer — and also some of the respect and praise for it. It’s not worth a lot, but when it’s all you’ve got, you get pretty possessive over it.
    I hope that clears up that little point.

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  96. Quoting Lee Goldberg: “I’ve heard a lot of inane justifications for writing fanfic, but this is the winner. She knows she’s using characters that aren’t her own, that she’s disrespecting the authors right to control their own creations, but none of that really matters… because she’s “a writer,” so she had no other choice but to write the story and post it in the net.  She had to do it. It was an undeniable compulsion.
    Because she’s “a writer.”
    No, Meljean, you’re not. You don’t have the slightest inking of what it means to be a writer or any respect for other writers.  A writer creates characters and stories  and respects the creative rights of his colleagues. You are a plagiarist. A creative parasite. To call yourself “a writer” to justify your creative theft and Internet publication of your work disrespects every real writer you steal from.”
    Wow. There are so many things that intrigue me about these statements it’s hard to know where to begin commenting.
    I suppose I could start with “A writer creates characters and stories.” Now, help me out here–you didn’t create “Diagnosis Murder,” right? All of the main characters already existed when your tenure with the show began? So are you saying you weren’t yet a “real” writer when you were penning scripts for the show? Or maybe a somewhat-real writer, as your stories mixed established characters with the suppporting characters you invented? Do you have any sort of chart here on your site listing the different stages of authordom from Pinocchio to Real Boy? ‘Cause I’m kinda curious to see how far I have yet to go before I’m deemed a “writer.”
    Oh, and am I right to presume Shakespeare’s history plays aren’t “real” writing, as they don’t involve characters or stories he made up from scratch? “Macbeth,” of course, is pure libel, as Will warped the history of an actual person until it bore little resemblance to what actually happened. Plus I seem to recall he stole Othello from someone else’s work as well, or at least the character if not the actual story. Cripes, I wasted an entire semester of college studying someone who wasn’t a real writer–think I could get a refund on my tuition?
    As for the issue of theft, I leave that for minds more educated in legal matters than my own. But I am greatly confused on one matter–since fanfic writers never pretend to have created the characters in question, nor do they profit from sharing their stories, what exactly are they stealing? You could call fanfic writers a bit lazy, I suppose–knowing their audience is already familiar with the main characters allows them to skip a lot of the hard work of characterization. But trust me: no matter how well a fanfic writer evokes a well-known fictional figure, their work will never be mistaken for canon by the fans; the writings of the original writer/writers will always be gospel. So how can something be thought of as stolen if it never left the owner’s possession to begin with?
    As for the theft of ideas… honestly, I’m not sure there’s a single writer out there who comes up with a purely original concept, one untouched by any other influence or precedent. All any of us really do is echo what’s gone before, the stories we’ve seen, lived, read, felt, and made part of our psyche. None of us grows up in a vacuum; consciously or not, anyone attempting to express themselves through some art form is inevitably going to emulate or reference someone else’s work.
    “Now I know what you’re going to say…”I used fanfic to learn my craft. I am a writer now. A professional writer. I have a novella coming out from Berkley and I’m working on a novel.   So there!”
    Uh-huh.
    So why do you still proudly post all your fanfic on your site? A real writer would have more respect for her peers. A real writer — an adult —  would know better.
    Grow up already.”
    *does a quick Google search* I’m sorry, I can’t find the announcement designating you the final arbiter of what a real writer or a real adult is. Did I somehow miss the memo?
    I’m sure you already know, from your work on “Diagnosis Murder,” that it takes a great deal of skill to write for a familiar character in such a way that the character remains familiar to the reader/viewer and not leave them saying, “Well, he/she would never do /that/!” So if someone feels they’ve accomplished this task particularly well, why not take some pride in it?
    Personally, based on what I’ve read I think it might not be such a bad idea for you to consider adjusting your black and white view of the world to allow for the possibility of nuance. As a friend pointed out to me recently, sometimes there really are victimless crimes–not using the crosswalk to move from one side of an empty street to another. Technically you’ve jaywalked, an illegal act. But exactly what harm have you done to yourself, the community, or the fabric of the entire legal system? And while speeding is illegal and certainly dangerous if done during rush hour on a packed four-lane, I have a hard time believing you’ve never taken advantage of being on a deserted highway at 1 a.m. to make up a little driving time. Same crime, different circumstances, different impact. A rose isn’t always a rose, and sometimes the owl really is a lark despite all our desire to believe otherwise.
    Oh, wait–I was referencing someone who wasn’t a real writer. My mistake.
    Anyway, just a couple of pennies I wanted to throw in to this most intriguing discussion. Now if you’ll excuse me, I suddenly feel like reading some fanfic…

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  97. I think the Shakespeare equivocation is ludicrous like Twain self-publishing. In TV land real writers are “hired” to write the scripts. Sometimes they take over for the creators. The West Wing just had that happen, so there is a legitimacy, and a need to be filled in the marketplace. There is also official authorization from said creator. You don’t any of those codicels on your team. Lee doewsn’t need me to defend him, but that’s my take on it nonetheless.
    Hell, even Dan Brown changes the names.

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  98. Yeah, witht eh “why I’m here” question, I have to agree with “fun to argue” bits a few people have said. There’s nothing wrong with a nice debate, as both sides tend to learn from it, and actually, there are many things Mr. Goldberg and I agree one.
    More importantly, however, I’m here backing up Jocelyn, as she is someone I deeply respect, and Huinesoron, as he is another acquaintance i’m friendly with, and I want to make sure people don’t get away with nasty remarks without getting ones flung back in their faces. One people stop with the comments about “twelve-year-olds with modems,” and “parasites” and all that rot, I’ll probably get bored.
    I like arguing because it’s fun, but I get more persistent and argumentative if the other person or persons are being rude about it, especially to nice people I know.
    So that’s why I’m still here, instead of just ignoring this and clicking away. I really don’t care about Mr. Goldberg’s opinions–and agree with a few–I care more about the insults being flung the way of people I know.
    I don’t like when people call my friends parasites.

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  99. //”More importantly, however, I’m here backing up Jocelyn, as she is someone I deeply respect…”//
    (Blushes bright red) Awww, thanks, Saphie! And you’re no slouch in the fanfic department yourself! When are you going to update that Potterverse tale?
    //”Once people stop with the comments about “twelve-year-olds with modems,” and “parasites” and all that rot, I’ll probably get bored.”//
    ‘Tis quite a valid point, however, that Lee and David and fanfiction’s opponents tend to assume that the fawriter community can be generalized into a particular type of people.
    We’re not. We vary as much as the members of the published community–and yes, we DO overlap with it. One of my favorite fanwriters is a well-respected novelist who writes Marvel comics fanfic for fun. And I fully intend to publish my books. Huinesoron is an undergrad, I believe, we have kids from middle-school up–I’m a second-year Georgetown Law student on my way to a law firm summer associateship.
    And yes, gentlemen, I HAVE taken Copyright. And my Professor knows all about fanfic (I eventually told her I was a fanwriter) and she agreed that the issue is far from decided as a matter of law. She also said it was a very “neat” hobby.
    Some of us are self-professed nerds extraordinaire, others are married with kids, we have all different educational backgrounds and careers. It’s really fun when some of our fan communities like GAFF and the PPC have meetups. I met Huinesoron on a visit to London.
    We’re all united by a shared hobby and interest, just like sports fans and the like. Our enthusiasm is just expressed a little more creatively than other fans.
    How can that be bad?

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  100. Your professor describes things as “neat”?
    On a more interesting topic, have you been to see the cherry blossoms yet? I was downtown last week and things were starting to really perk up. Spring is looking very beautiful.

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  101. Yeah, she did. Did you expect her to say “cool”?
    I didn’t make it to the Jefferson Memorial this time, where the best blossoms are usually found, as it’s out of my way and I’m in the midst of preparing for moot court competition and a production of the Mikado, but they are beautiful. All in all this year wasn’t as good as last year–last year we had an incredibly cold-but-reasonably-short winter, and the blossoms were spectacular.
    Still, the White House lawn is always nice to look at in the spring.

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  102. I forget which fanfiction writer said in a comment here that Terry Goodkind doesn’t mind fanfiction based on his work, but apparently that’s not true. From Fanfiction.net:
    “FanFiction.Net respects the expressed wishes of the following authors and will not archive entries based on their work:
    * P.N. Elrod
    * Raymond Feist
    * Terry Goodkind
    * Laurell K. Hamilton
    * Robin Hobb
    * Anne McCaffrey
    * Dennis L. McKiernan
    * Robin McKinley
    * Irene Radford
    * Anne Rice
    * Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb
    Failure to comply with site rules will result in the removal of stories and/or removal of account.”
    Also, I read that Jasper Fforde and Sandra Brown don’t allow fanfiction based on their work either.

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  103. “How thoughtful of her. How about if she wrote to DC and asked for permission first?”
    Speaking of thoughtful, since you care so much, why not write DC comics yourself? I don’t think you ever answered that question. If they are as concerned as you seem to think they are, just imagine how grateful they would be to receive word from a caring citizen that their financial investments are under attack by a bunch of moochers! There may even be a reward!
    Really, do you think DC gives a flying crap about a bunch of fans writing stories for fun and NOT making money from it? If you do, you’ve got your brain wrapped WAY too tightly around the concept of fan fiction and what it is. Excuse me, what you think it is.
    Want to know for sure? Write DC comics yourself. Then you can post their OFFICIAL view in your shiny little blog and if it’s in your favor, you can parade it around at every fan fiction forum you come across for all the little boys and girls in Fanficcer Land to see.
    And if it isn’t in your favor? You can apologize to the author in question for essentially sticking your nose where it apparently didn’t belong.
    In short: Put up or shut up.
    This will be my last response to anything Mr. Goldberg (or his darling fans) has to say, not because I’m not interested in his rather pompous replies (that casually IGNORE the main points of what is said), but because I think I’ve wasted enough time here giving him free publicity.
    In closing I’d like to say that this has been a very interesting experience and that I will forever consider Mr. Goldberg a sad strange little man that has too high an opinion of himself and too low an opinion of others. Ciao.

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  104. “I think I’ve wasted enough time here giving him free publicity.”
    Just out of curiousity, how exactly are you giving Lee free publicity by posting on HIS blog?

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  105. I wrote fan fic and read it for 15 years, fan fic based on TV shows. That was how I learned how to write and how I met the people I now write original material with. I also wrote a couple of fan fic pieces set in the DC Comics universe for the DC-approved Teen Titans APA (limited distribution to people on a list) back in the early-’80s). I started writing fan fic as a kid because I wanted more adventures of my fav cancelled TV shows. I got hooked on it. I could concentrate on stories and plots cuz the characters and setting already existed. Many years later, I was ready for the challenge of creating my own characters, having had a taste of that by writing the “guest” characters in fan fic.
    My understanding is that it’s not so much a copyright issue as copyright protects the words, not the ideas, concepts, etc. The problem is trademark infringement as the characters and name of the property usually have such protections.
    Fan fic has never hurt sales or ruined box office, but rather has increased the interest and kept interest alive, ie Star Trek. In fact, ST fan fic was anthologized professionally back in the ’70s in books called Star Trek: The New Voyages. A fan fic writer I know also wrote an actual Star Trek (original series) episode. Lucasfilms has been pretty okay about fan fic, too, provided characters aren’t maimed, killed, or slashed. If you need to ask what slash is, you don’t know much about fan fic.
    What is troubling is that in the old days of print zines only, it was easy to stay under the radar and now with the web, it’s all out there and the new generation of writers who post online seem oblivious to the idea that they don’t own the rights to the characters they use. I attend a couple of fan cons yearly and know many of these people, cuz the same attitude has filtered into print zinedom.
    BTW, a lot of pro writers (the ones I know write fantasy and SF) got their start in fan fic. I even had a story or two in zines with their stories. Jean Lorrah, who has written ST tie-ins as well as her own SF series, is the one who’s been public about it so I don’t mind mentioning her by name.
    BTW, JK Rowling has a lot of problems with fan fic, at least in print zines. I know people who got Cease & Desist letters from her lawyers; the most recent was a few months ago. Warner Bros is sending out C&D letters on their properties, too, which includes Man From UNCLE, the subject of an upcoming revival movie, which is a shame cuz the former half owner, Norman Felton, was a friend of fan fic. So is his air, but Warner has more clout.
    Fan fic will keep on keeping on, even if it has to go underground again, back to print zines passed around on a circuit, APAs, encrypted files, and the like. After all, it’s been around for nearly 40 years that I know about, starting with Star Trek. At least Sherlock Holmes fan fic is ok. I believe that’s public domain. 🙂

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  106. Okay if I throw my two cents plain in?
    First off, I think the objections to fanfic should properly be divided into two areas: disagreement with the fact that it even exists, and disagreement with the fact that there are a lot of bad writers out there who muck up the characters, often pornographically. Lee, I think (and I may be wrong in that), hates fanfic on both grounds.
    For the former, I think the best advice might be: get over it. It exists, it’s going to go on existing, and, like Hydra, cut off a limb and two shall take its place. Probably a lot more than that. If an author says no, there are a zillion more that don’t, or don’t care, or don’t know, or don’t want to know. And I, too, have seen fanfic of certain characters that was better than the tie-in novels publishing houses marketed. (Heck, I put in a proposal for a tie-in myself!)
    If the latter, I can sympathize, sir. I’m no fan of the folks who warp characters to fulfill their personal fantasies, and they seem to get progressively worse as time goes on. Slash is no longer shocking? Let’s try incest. That’s old hat now? Well, maybe mpreg. And there’s stuff worse than that out there, let me tell you.
    I won’t touch that crap with a ten foot pole. I don’t know too many people who really like the source characters or materials who will, either. There is, as far as I’m concerned, a valid basis for objections to that kind of fic. But there’s still enough good stuff out there to, IMO, redeem fanfic as a whole.
    There’s been too much name-slinging by both sides here. Why not take a step back, chill a bit, and debate with courtesy for awhile? Certainly couldn’t hurt, anyway.
    And, yep, there’s a difference between original story creations, work-for-hire, and fanfic. There have been two instances I recall in which fanficcers announced their intent to publish their derivative work for pay. We dissuaded both from doing so, pointing out that making money from somebody else’s copyrighted work was a sure way to get lawyers on your case like a swarm of angry hornets. But, when money isn’t involved, most of them seem to turn a blind eye.
    And perhaps that’s the way it should be.

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  107. Okay, I’m still stuck on the part where you said she’s “disrespecting the authors [sic] right to control their own creations.”
    These are DC characters we’re talking about here. The actual creators of the characters? Have absolutely no rights to them. Want to talk about disrespect? Let’s talk about a company that takes the copyright from the creators and makes money off of it. The authors have already been stripped of their rights by DC.
    D.C. is not a company like Vertigo that lets the authors own their characters.
    In the end, who cares about copyright? The entire system has needed an overhaul for years. It does *not* currently protect artists; it protects corporations.
    Would I feel bad about breaking copyright and using a character that’s already been stolen from his or her creator? Absolutely not.

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  108. (Blushes bright red) Awww, thanks, Saphie! And you’re no slouch in the fanfic department yourself! When are you going to update that Potterverse tale?
    No prob, thanks, and I have…three? Four original novels in the works? And they’re eating me alive, from the inside of my brain out. Also I’ve been doing quite a few short stories lately, as I’ve been trying to make some extra bucks. Then there’s the school editorial magazine, and school in general, so…
    So it really depends on whether or not all those crap out on me and I get writer’s block. (There’s one I’d like you to see, actually, as it’s somewhat in the vein of Harry Potter). I usually only do fanfic to keep the juices flowing to force through writer’s block, and to work on my pacing and get critique for it, as I usually have some trouble with it.
    Would “blood-sucking leeches” be okay? 😉
    Har har. Bite me.
    Oh wait, I’m a leech, so I guess I’ll bite you.
    I won’t say exactly where, but I do hope those bits aren’t as important for procreation as they say they are.
    BTW, JK Rowling has a lot of problems with fan fic, at least in print zines. I know people who got Cease & Desist letters from her lawyers; the most recent was a few months ago. Warner Bros is sending out C&D letters on their properties, too, which includes Man From UNCLE, the subject of an upcoming revival movie, which is a shame cuz the former half owner, Norman Felton, was a friend of fan fic. So is his air, but Warner has more clout.
    A) Warner Brothers can bite my ass. In fact, I hereby deem that Warner Brothers can bite all our asses, whether you lot all want your ass to be bitten or not.
    Mainly because of things like this: http://www.hotghettomess.com/not.htm
    It’s hard for me to have any respect for corporations that have no problem with plagiarism as long as it makes them money.
    Companies and publishers don’t really give a shit as long as they’re making money, and it’s despicable that they usually get more protection (and money) than the original creator.
    Personally, when it comes to the copyright mess, I don’t give a fuck about the laws–I care more about what the original creator’s opinion. Feel free to care about the will of the corporations and publishers, too, but really, it’s not their property. Someone else thought it up, and I think they deserve more protection and more money. Not that the system will ever change, but still.
    B) Fanzines usually cost money. I can see why anybody would be pissed if someone made money off of their ideas.
    C) http://www.wizardnews.com/story.200312091.html
    The Guardian, via Wizard news:
    “Yet JK Rowling’s literary agent, for instance, has asked some internet service providers and website operators to remove any pornographic fanfic based on Harry Potter, simply because children would be able to access it. But this is an issue about internet policing rather than the act of writing itself. In fact, a representative for Rowling’s agent states that “the general feeling is one of flattery” – as long as it’s clear that the author isn’t JK Rowling.”
    In my case, there wasn’t any Harry Potter fanfic in my account until after I read this. There’s no porn in it, and I certainly don’t parade around pretending to be JKR.
    D) As for the slash/bad characterization/Mpreg/wtf-were-they-thinking-when-they-wrote-that issue and whatnot…I agree that it sucks. If someone’s going to use someone else’s characters, they should at LEAST be true to the original story.
    That being said, when I get my own books published, I really don’t care what people write about my characters as long as they don’t make money off it. And even then, if I find any particularly good fanfic on the net, I’m going to try to get an anthology of derivitave work published so those nice folks make some money.

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  109. Oh yeah, Shelly, also proof that JKR doesn’t mind fic and fanart: http://www.jkrowling.com
    Check the Fansite awards section. The first one listed as one her favorites is Immeritus, a site that has Sirius Black fanfic and fanart on it. She even admits in her comment that for the longest time she had a fanart from the site on her desktop.
    If she minded fanfic, why would she list the site as a favorite, instead of slapping it with a C&D?

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  110. Everything I write is fanfic. Including the published novels Digital Knight and Diamonds are forever, the forthcoming coauthored book Boundary with Eric Flint, the RPG game materials I put together for my weekly games, the more standard fanfic that I wrote for Saint Seiya, the gamefic “An American Gamer in Gondor”, and so on and so forth.
    Everything almost EVERYONE writes is, in my view, “fanfic”. You get a Kewl Idea and you use “stuff” that you have around you to enact that Kewl Idea in text. Write historical fiction? You’re a a history fanboy making fanfics around historical times or events that interest you.
    I’m not sure that the act of writing fanfics violates copyright. Publicizing them may, depending on the specific use of the characters and elements. What fanfic DOES do, much more often, is violate *TRADEMARK* rights. However, I consider current usage of BOTH copyrights and trademarks to be exaggerated and incredibly stupid. We now have copyright being extended whenever The Mouse gets nervous, and enforced to ludicrous extremes.
    FANFIC IS A GOOD THING. It shows that people are *INTERESTED* in your product. It shows they care. It shows they want your stuff SO BADLY that if you can’t give them a fix fast enough, they’ll go MAKE THEIR OWN. People like that are your best possible customers. They’re the ones that will write letter campaigns to keep your show on the air, the ones who will purchase your books, every one of them, in a 42 book series.
    Only idiotic authors and producers of TV/Movies object to fanfic. They don’t understand: THESE ARE YOUR FANS. These people like your stuff SO MUCH that they are spreading your gospel — or their twisted version of it — around the world.
    Most fanfics are DIRE. Yeah, so what? So are 90% of the “original” stories submitted to magazines, publishers, movie studios, etc., etc., etc.
    The Japanese have something called “Doujinshi” which are basically fanfic manga/comics which are based on various popular anime series. Do they go out and crush all who make these things — which are **CLEARLY** trademark/copyright violations — especially those who sell them??
    HELL NO. They’re not that dumb. They do put LIMITS how how many can be sold (and the limit is high enough that relatively few doujinshi are likely to reach that level), but they also sponsor entire CONVENTIONS with the things. And what else? Why, they watch the doujinshi producers and find the ones that are really professional level — the ones that have the inventiveness, or drawing talent, or wit — and then they HIRE them.
    A few Western companies appear to be at least TRYING to be sane in this as well; Cartoon Network, for instance, not only did NOT do a C&D against “Bleedman” (bleedman.snafu-comics.com/), even though his doujinshi of the Powerpuff Girls, Dexter, and a buttload of other CN (and Nickelodeon) characters was, um, Different to say the least — but instead they PROMOTED it, mentioned it on their site, and have left him alone to Do His Thing.
    There are things one can do with direct fanfic that can’t be done with one’s own writing, also. Oh, sure, you can try to steal the basic concepts, paint over the characters with new names and appearances, etc., but that’s clumsy and often loses the impact of what you would have wanted to accomplish with the originals. In some cases, the only difference between what the fanfic author does and what a real author does is a contract. The endless Star Trek/Star Wars tie-in novels… what are they, exactly? Why, nothing more or less than paid fanfics. The Conan novels by people other than Robert E. Howard? Conan fanfics. Paid Conan fanfics. The multitude of Lovecraftian stories? HPL fanfic.
    Bah. Contempt of fanfic misses the point. Authors steal from each other all the time. Some are embarrassed about it. Most of us get over that and recognize that — if we are LUCKY — we’ll have one or two really original ideas in our entire lives, and that even THOSE will have built upon other people’s worki. Most of what we write will be taken from something or someone else.
    So, in short — don’t be ridiculous. And that goes triple for the publishers, MPAA, and all the other people out there becoming anal-retentive on these topics.

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  111. Vertigo is an imprint of DC Comics. That they have different contracts for their Vertigo people doesn’t mean they don’t publish them. Ditto for Wildstorm and any other of their current imprints.
    Fanzines cost money to produce, but they are sold generally at cost and don’t usually take in all the labor involved. The C&D letters Warner sent out were for print zines. They have not yet to my knowledge done a thing about web fanfic in UNCLE.
    And yes, JK Rowling will go after fan fic of Harry Potter, in slash print zines. Before my friend got her C&D letter from Warner Brothers, she got one a few months earlier from JKR’s lawyers. The idea there is that a child might be able to find a print zine lying around somewhere.
    I’ve been in fandom since 1980 and know fan fic zine publishers who go back to the ’60s, including the person who did the first Star Trek zine, tho I haven’t seen her in a few years. I know people in all areas of print zines, especially in distribution.
    BTW, many younger actors enjoy reading fan fic stories about their characters, even the slash stuff. While others have their lawyers go after anyone who uses a likeness of their face for anything, be it art in a zine or a drawing on a mug or poster. I can name names, but I won’t, unless someone begs me. 🙂
    Again, let’s remember that copyright and trademark infringement are two different things and using someone else’s characters to write new stories is not a copyright issue, but viiolation of the trademark for those characters. Many pro writers have taken characters (including some SF writers using someone else’s aliens) and redoing and renaming them for their own books. People “borrow” all the time.
    The only real difference between writing fan fic for fun and writing it for the pro market (tie-in books) is that the latter authors can legally be paid. Even writing for TV shows when you haven’t created the characters is a form of fan fic. Ditto writing in shared universes, ie, the Merovingen Nights (an acquaintance of mine who wrote Star Trek fan fic had a story in one of those anthologies).
    It’s been happening for decades in various forms and it’s not going away. Even with DC Comics, there has been a history of fan fic and articles, interviews, etc in APAs (Amateur Press Association publications).
    And all those slash stories and other “warping” of the characters is simply AU (Alternate Universe stories). I don’t like them all, but I defend their right to exist. I wish the trademark laws can be changed to take the legal stigma off fan fic.

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  112. Copyright protection doesn’t cover character names, but it does cover the unique expression of them.
    Trademarks, if registered, can protect character names. Most characters are not trademarked, though, unless the rights holder is a corporation, rather than an individual artist.
    So writing a Batman story would probably violate Warner Bros. trademark. But writing a Dirk Pitt story would violate Clive Cussler’s copyright.

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  113. I realized I should have used my writing blog’s URL, not my main blog’s URL, which is why the link is different for this comment, not that anyone cares.
    I do want to add that many folks commenting here really get it. Consent is nice, but it doesn’t change the nature of the writing. If people are making money off of fan fic, I’d be surprised and that dilutes one argument against it. The other, that it dilutes the brand, lessens interest in the product that is for sale or to view on TV, is ridiculous cuz fan fic has done nothing but keep interest in a property alive. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to revive old TV shows as movies (I Spy, Starsky & Hutch, and maybe Man from UNCLE) if not for fan interest over the decades. And part of fan activity (fanac) is writing and distributing fan fic.
    Fan fic keeps people talking about a show. There are conventions devoted to fan fic and music vids and art shows that help keep interest in a show or book series or movie series alive and well.
    An addenda on JKRowling. Along with my comment that she had C&D letters sent for print zines she didn’t approve of, forcing my friend to stop distributing them (she wasn’t even the publisher or writer), she also has a legit complaint. Lucasfilms was also nice about fan fic. Just don’t maim, kill, or slash the characters, and send zines to them for approval, and they were fine with what you published. But that didn’t stop the circuit and neither will JKR’s C&D letters. People will still write the stuff, they’ll pass the printouts to their friends, and the danger of a child seeing one of those stories will still exist cuz Mommy might be one of the folks writing or reading it. Forcing something underground isn’t always the best policy. And it means that no matter how hard you try, you can’t control everything.
    And yes, Devin Grayson was a fan fic writer. Some folks think her pro Nightwing stories are still fan fic. 🙂

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  114. People write Starsky & Hutch fanfic? The more I find out about this, the more fascinating it gets.
    “But that didn’t stop the circuit and neither will JKR’s C&D letters. People will still write the stuff…”
    Shelly, if I’m following you correctly, you’re saying that fanficcers don’t care about the author’s wishes and will write whatever they want regardless?
    Doesn’t that invalidate the argument that so many on here have been making about how much respect they have for the original creators, they only have good intentions, they’d stop if the author asked, etc.?

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