I don’t usually get political here, but watch this with your computer speakers cranked up. If you’re a Rush Limbaugh ditto-head, you might want to skip it.
(Thanks to Tom Sawyer for the link)
#1 New York Times Bestselling Author & TV Producer
I don’t usually get political here, but watch this with your computer speakers cranked up. If you’re a Rush Limbaugh ditto-head, you might want to skip it.
(Thanks to Tom Sawyer for the link)
Lame…
I’m sure all those soldiers families are estatic knowing that some partisan flunky is using their children’s photos in order to promote his own political video…that in reality doesn’t say anything of substance.
Given that I had a friend who died there and another who is permantly disabled from his humvee getting blown up I’d love it if someone would argue something other than…they lied to us, they lied to us, waaaaaaaa waaaaaa.
Hey Bryan,
They lied to us.
Lee, I couldn’t get it to play. “Loading” flashed on my screen for quite a while, but I am shutting it down to go to bed. I’ll try again tomorrow, if I have a chance.
It’s powerful and now we’ve finally seen the funerals. Look, Cheney flat-out lied as stated. Bush wasn’t smart enough to lie but belief in liars and their message is lying by proxy.
Bryan,
I imagine the families were more upset when politicians used their children’s lives to promote a political agenda.
I think Rush ditto-heads are exactly the people who should see this.
And yeah, I think most families would be more upset that their members were killed protecting us from a WMD threat that did not exist. There were quite a few protesting with Sheehan in DC a few weeks ago – conflicting numbers were given out, but it looked like to be 100, 000 minimum (and I believe there were far more than that).
A group protesting the anti-war protesters (which also had parents who lost children OVER THERE, as Sheehan had) numbered four hundred.
So I’m going to take a guess that more families who lost members over there are more unhappy over the lies and unaccountability and crappy equipment and bad intelligence than there are families mad that someone has put a picture up honoring the fallen (which, to date, our own government has yet to do) – so you’re argument is fundalmentally flawed.
And hey Bryan, they lied. And they are STILL lying to us.
Nor are you the only one who knows someone OVER THERE, so you don’t get any ground for using that as a stick to keep the opposing arguments at bay. It doesn’t make you less or more right in your argument. Nor does it make Cindy Sheehan more or less right. Facts are facts and face up to it.
Our solders didn’t die for our freedom or anyone else’s. They died because they (and we) were misled, ill-equipped and woefully unprepared by the leaders sending them into battle. Anyone who cannot see that is either corrupt or willfully ignorant or both. Which means you.
Now that’s something I’d be willing to fight about. The truth. The truth is worth risking my life for.
This administration is not.
By the way, Lee, I posted the film site on my blog as well, crediting you for pointing it out – I hope that’s all right.
Hate to break this to you but every single gov. administration has lied to us, and they will continue to do so.
The reason Bush and co. is able to weather the storm so easily is because their opposition is so weak and lousy at making an effective argument besides calling them names..most notably “liars”.
Actually most military families are firmly behind the efforts their sons and daughters are making in Iraq, they may dispute the reason we went in there, but the majority agree that they have and are still doing some good. Now most would love it if they came home but not because they think they’re dieing or fighting for nothing.
Any mention of Sheehan is an absolute joke. 400…wow thats a giant crowd.
Cheney lied, Bush lied, Colin Powell lied, Condi lied…..and?
They lied…and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
And if a Democrat gets into office…they’re gonna lie…just the way it is.
Now if you make a coherent argument against Bush’s running of the war, violations of Geneva Conventions, lack of a long term plan, no diplomacy with the border countries, etc etc then something might be accomplished…though given the Bush administration….probably not.
But just bitching and moaning about how they lied to us over and over doesn’t do anything. Everyone even Republicans deep down are aware that the administration lied. But that doesn’t solve the problem or the deaths in Iraq.
And you can’t just bail because they lied in making us go there.
Our soldiers died so the guy next to them wouldn’t.
The fact that they freed a country from a dictator and his psycotic gov. was an added bonus.
Anybody that argues that Iraq was better off with Saddam than without is just a complete dumbass.
You can argue we shouldn’t have gone in to begin with…but though Iraq has problems…an Iraq without Saddam, Uday, and Co. is much better than an Iraq with.
“every administration has lied to us, and they will continue to do so.”
This equivocation won’t fly as no fallacies are allowed. They blundered us into this mess, refuse to acknowledge it still; believe they can win, while bankrupting the country, and won’t change until made to by the voters. On the other hand when protestors like Sheehan make claims like “our policies of killing innocent citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan caused Sept. 11” as she did in an interview. (Marc Cooper linked it), Well that’s also a lie.
This does happen once invasions of foreign countries are underway though, but we weren’t in either place before 9-11. Maybe embargo deaths are what she meant? Fallacies are a bad way to justify anything regardless of the particular bent.
It’s a very questionable move any time you use someone’s image without their permission to advance a political argument. When that person is dead (and, furthermore, was killed in their country’s service), it becomes an even greater breach of ethics, as well as good taste.
Perhaps I’m wrong, though, and they did receive authorization from the soldier’s families. That would be the appropriate thing to do.
Bryan
You’re correct when you say that the democratic opposition has let us down – don’t disagree with you on that.
And I believe that I did mention other issues contributing to soldiers deaths (weapons, equip, etc) and there is much else that can and should be said about how the war was run and how inept a lot of folks (Rumsfeld should be put in jail) have been and how we are violating international laws – and it’s a crime that enlisted soldiers are put in jail for torture that their superiors clearly condoned and encouraged.
However –
To brush off any and all indignation over Bush’s lies as useless and to stage that it doesn’t do anything is absolutely and totally wrong. Just because (even “if” you’re right) all government officials have lied to us in the past is no reason to continue to put up with it –
What if, back in the sixties, folks said “of course black people are discriminated against by the government, but that’s what we’ve been doing for years and theyu’re always gonna do it, so stop bitching out it because I’m tired of listening to it” – folks didn’t put up with it, they yelled, screamed and moaned until enough noise and sense was made that change happened. That’s one way positve social change occurs.
So hey, you’re tired of hearing us bitch out the lies? Do something to stop the lies, that’s far more constructive than yelling at us who complain about bad and shoddy government service. You’re doing the classic “blame the rape victim” for the crime.
And not only that, damn it, this is frigging America, land of free speech, and if there’s anything I am tired of, it’s Bush supporters constantly whining about how citizens should not criticize our government – this country was founded on the idea that we can do that and shame on anyone who believes otherwise. Believing that Americans do not have the right to protest or bitch about a lying government is the most UN-AMERICAN thing I can think of.
Sneer at Sheehan all you want – she’s acting on her right to say what she believes and hundreds of thousands are finding her arguments more persuasive than the President’s.
That’s why there were only 400 folks protesting HER in DC and thousands SUPPORTING her.
And yes, if the war is illegal (which it is) and if no, we are not accomplishing anything (which, except putting a theocratic Shia government in charge of an oil rich country, something we really don’t need, I don’t believe we are) as what happened in Vietnam (what happened in that war?) then yes, we should bail and yes we should do it asap. In fact, we owe it to our country, their country and our soldiers to admit it was wrong and illegal and get out.
No soldier’s life is worth throwing away for a lie.
And how can we know for sure if we are accomplishing anything there anyway? We’re being told that we are by the same group that lied to us about going there, so WHY believe them on anything?
They’ll lie until we hold them to a higher standard. I’m saying, let’s do that.
And complain all you want. I’m not shutting up just because you’re tired of hearing it, too lazy to do something about it and too ignorant to know any better.
Lame is a word that best describes you.
I want to apologize to Bryan for the last few sentences I in my previous post – They were far too personal and I shouldn’t have said them – I was hot and pissed and went a step or two too far, even though we don’t know each other, I shouldn’t have said it.
This is obviously an emotional issue and it’s better to try and keep heads cooler when discussing it, so I’m going to take a step or two back until I do cool –
it’s a hot thing, this topic, and for good reason.
The arguments failed because the arguments are weak. Both Democrats and Republicans have argued for years that, based on intelligence reports, Saddam had WMDs and was working to develop them.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
As a direct result of the war, Libya agreed to give up its quest for nukes, and opened the country up for inspection. What we found showed that they were more advanced in their quest than we thought, helped along by nuclear scientists from Pakistan and North Korea.
Targets in the west have been under attack since the Carter administration, when the Shah of Iran was toppled in favor of an Islamic state. Most of those killed were in the military, such as the Beirut bombing, the attack on the Cole, the attack on the Berlin disco. But civilians were attacked as well (remember the Achille Lauro?) The World Trade center was attacked twice.
Do you believe that if we pulled out from Iraq today, that they would stop attacking?
I believe that part of the reason we’re a target is because of our support for Israel. If the price for peace with Islamic terrorists is to abandon that support, would you favor it? Should Israel exist as a Jewish state?
Fields that’s an unfair choice. There is no trading Israel for Arab countries. They’re both real and exist. Radicals will coontinue to be attracted to this blunder and one way not to draw fire from local nutjobs is to stay away. Good lesson there for those willing to look.
The weapons were eradicated by the embargo and the inspections. Ironically the weapons they had locked up were lost and stolen during the invasion. Incompetents abound.
Context, Fields, is not your friend.
Origins: All
of the quotes listed above[on snopes] are substantially correct reproductions of statements made by various Democratic leaders regarding Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein’s acquisition or possession of weapons of mass destruction. However, some of the quotes are truncated, and context is provided for none of them — several of these quotes were offered in the course of statements that clearly indicated the speaker was decidedly against unilateral military intervention in Iraq by the U.S. Moreover, several of the quotes offered antedate the four nights of airstrikes unleashed against Iraq by U.S. and British forces during Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, after which Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen and Gen. Henry H. Shelton (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) announced the action had been successful in “degrad[ing] Saddam Hussein’s ability to deliver chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.”
Both Democrats and Republicans have argued for years that, based on intelligence reports, Saddam had WMDs and was working to develop them.
Some European countries believed it, too. Frankly, I suspect Saddam believed it as well. One of the problems with being a Stalinist leader (aside from being utter and complete evil) is that your underlings tell you whatever you want to hear. When failure and lies both earn you an execution, you might as well lie about your failures.
But the big diff here is that no one had proof. It’s like executing a suspect because he’s a bad guy and everyone says he committed the crime.
As a direct result of the war, Libya agreed to give up its quest for nukes, and opened the country up for inspection.
Actually, the US deserves very little of the credit for that one. Decades of British diplomacy pulled that off.
Do you believe that if we pulled out from Iraq today, that they would stop attacking?
No. Have another question?
Oh, yes, you do.
If the price for peace with Islamic terrorists is to abandon that support [for Israel], would you favor it?
Nope. And I don’t think it’s necessary.
Victory against terrorists will be achieved when the people who support them decide they’d rather support us. Turning Iraq into a hell hole won’t do that. Neither will keeping Palestinians in camps.
I think the guy who made the site could have done a much better and much more powerful job of making his point. He undercut his own credibility by turning what could have been an emotional indictment, into an emotional rant.
“LIES” just doesn’t cut it. Political administrations lie, people. More than any other entity. They do it to “protect us” – you know, that whole “in the interest of national security” thing. And they do it to protect their ass – which is doing whatever is possible to remain in power. Republican, democrat, whatever. To expect that they should not “lie to us” is an infantile desire.
To say Bush lied is a moot and silly argument.
To say Bush is stupid is one of the most ridiculous things the Left has ever spouted. The man is very, very smart… he has convinced over half the country that he is too stupid to know any better. Trust me, the man knows. The Bush family has been one of the most powerful and influential political families since the Kennedys. To say he is dumb only makes the person saying it look dumb… and you’re playing right into his hand.
To think we went into Iraq because of WMD’s, or because of SH’s relationship with Al Qaeda, or anything else you HEAR IN THE MEDIA is again an uninformed opinion, based most likely on listening to television shows or reading newspapers. If you don’t believe the country’s media is at worst controlled and at best influenced by our politicians, then do a two-minute research into why Michael Moore’s (whom I hate) film couldn’t get on the air prior to the election, or check out why you’ve never heard of Dan Moldea’s book “Interference.”
For people to really have an informed political opinion, you must learn from the inside. You must hear and read and see things from places other than THE MEDIA. To blindly expect something said on PUBLIC airwaves by Bush or Cheney or Clinton or Giuliani or Boxer or Schwarzenegger or any other politician to be the truth is to insult your own intelligence. Just as blindly expecting it to be a lie.
Get invloved. Especially if you’re writers – you have access from a research standpoint to get inside this country’s political machine and see how it really works. It’s much easier than you think. And when you do, you’ll never look at politicians on TV the same… or even want to look at them at all.
I’m not sure what political argument is being advanced here. It shows photos of the dead alongside statements of the living, who, were in fact, lying.
Looks pretty much like straight ahead, middle of the road reporting to me.
Oh, and Paul, I think Bush IS stupid. But the people around him are very, very smart.