Robin Reid writes Real People Slash fanfic — fictional stories about real people having homosexual sex (like, say Ashton Kutcher and Leonardo DiCaprio) and posts it on the Internet. She doesn’t think it might be offensive or embarrassing to the real people involved or to their spouses, children, family and friends. Nor does she care.
On the other hand, Robin thinks that quoting her biography, the one she posted publicly on the JACK website, is an invasion of her privacy and harassment. Honest to God. I’m not making this stuff up:
Luckily I’m a great big girl with tenure and academic freedom and publication
credit of my own, and I do not think anything that they are putting on the
internet about me is going to cause me problems. I’m pretty much "out" in major
ways on my campus mostly through the medium of my academic writing. My
department hired me, tenured me, and supports Academic Freedom, bless their
collective hearts.However, I want to state that in principle what Lee and Paul Ziggy and Co.
are doing is invasion of privacy and harassment, simple and clear.
Let me see if I have this straight. Writing a story about two real people having sex and distributing it on the Internet isn’t an invasion of privacy or harassment… but quoting a publicly posted biography is. Can someone please explain her "principles" to me? Because I don’t get it.
(Thanks to "Anonymous" for the heads-up).
The idea that that woman is some sort of academic is the saddest thing about the state of education in this country that I’ve heard in a while.
I didn’t know daycare providers could be tenured.
This is one of the reasons I object in my quiet way to RPF.
So many of its adherents are fine with it right up until the point at which the biter gets bitten. A few aren’t, to do them justice.
“Can someone please explain her “principles” to me? Because I don’t get it.”
Gladly. When I talk about you, that’s okay. When you talk about me, that’s slander.
See the logic? Are you having trouble seeing it as logic? If you answered yes to both of these questions, you understand how their minds work, yet are smart enough to know better.
I have to thank Ziggy (AKA Paul Guyot?)
oooo. Lookee there! Ziggy at I Speak My Mind that you reference here is actually PAUL GUYOT!
This is all something you and Paul set up! So you could harrass her and invade Robin’s privacy.
What is Robin basing that on? Is it true?
She’s threatening to write an academic paper on it. Perfect example of her level of ‘scholarship’. Hope she spells everybody’s name right!
Let us know when it comes out, Robin. Gonna pop a lot of corn to watch that show!
Not only is half the nation below the mean for intelligence, but they’ve got internet access as well.
I think Bill Peschel has it nailed.
I second Mr. Peschel and Ms. Jean, and count the motion carried.
Jeez. If you don’t want people to re-post it, don’t put it on the Internet, fer Gawd’s sake. And how is it harassment when you’re simply writing in your own damn blog and not emailing or contacting her?
*shakes head in disbelief* Jeez.
All you have to do is run a simple Google search and everything you’d ever want to know about Dr. Robin Anne Reid is right there. She’s an associate professor of English at Texas A&M University – Commerce. The courses she teaches include Composition, Introduction to Literature and Multiethnic Literature, Creative Writing, Stylistics and Linguistics, Teaching/Pedagogy, Speculative (or Science) Fiction.
For some reason, Introduction to Real People Slash Fanfiction isn’t among the courses she offers.
Here’s the link to her university page.
http://www.tamu-commerce.edu/litlang/Faculty/Reid/Reid.htm
I’m surprised that they let her teach there.
I wouldn’t be surprised if she turns in academic papers on why real people slash fic is a legit form of fiction writing.
Here’s her justification:
“And yes, the taunts are mostly on a third grade level, as is their apparent legal knowledge. In this country, at least, public figures, including the celebrities, have a different legal definition/standard of what constitutes invasion of privacy than do private individuals.”
You may want to do another post about hypocrisy and fanfiction writers, Lee. Now she’s talking about suing people for violating her copyright by quoting her posts.
“And I may need to keep an eye on the amount they’re quoting: I don’t know fersure, would have to check, whether or not the 300 word limit without permission counts in the electronic world or not.”
I suggest removing replies that provide info and promote any kind of harrassment or stalking. By all means disagree but suggesting harrassment is low.
I agree, Stad. So I went back and re-read all the comments. I didn’t see anyone suggesting harassment. I found only one comment that, although it was a joke, could have possibly been construed as “promoting harassment,” and I’ve deleted it. As far as “providing info,” from what I can tell, everything that’s been excerpted by commenters here is information Dr. Reid has provided herself and posted publicly on the web. If she didn’t want the information known, why did she post it?. The fact is, anyone who types her name in Google will come up with the same biographical information about her. So how has anyone invaded her privacy? The information isn’t private, it’s public.And she posted it.
Speaking as the guy who wrote that comment, of course it was a joke, but a pointed one. It’s obvious nobody’s harassing Robin Reid except her own persecution complex.
—Robin Reid writes Real People Slash fanfic — fictional stories about real people having homosexual sex (like, say Ashton Kutcher and Leonardo DiCaprio) and posts it on the Internet. She doesn’t think it might be offensive or embarrassing to the real people involved or to their spouses, children, family and friends. Nor does she care. —
Again it’s all about the sex. So, what if Robin would write a fictional tale about Sean Bean and Elijah Wood having a business dinner and founding a film company instead of having an affair? That would be okay with you?
Or what if she would write about, say, Sean Bean having first a business dinner which then evolves to an affair with Miranda Otto? That’s not so bad?
You still want to claim you’re not homophobic?
And, btw, she writes about the LOTR cast as far as I know and they know about slash based upon them and seem to find it funny…. So why is it again that you think you have to fight a fight the people concerned apparently are not interested in fighting?
kete
They’re not aware of it. Should they read her work there may be grounds for defamation. Moreover, this sort of activity, particularly the violence could be interpreted as a negative false light invasion of privacy. The homophobe charge is a red herring.
Marky48, babe, they *are* aware of it, believe you me. They have been handed slash fiction to autograph etc. (not that I think this is a good idea, but it happened nonetheless). They have been asked aout it in interviews and they did not say, “OMG, the horror!”, they laughed and said they found it weird, but okay.
kete
Site your sources Kete, I hate arguments made on a random they. Virtually every comment I see from you here is a homophobic blast.
The woman is a hypocrite – plain and simple. She can write about the sex lives (real or imagined) of other people, yet hisses like a roach when the light hits her. What kind of twist has to write about any sexual encounter between two people anyway (and I don’t count sex scenes supporting stories)?
I would really think twice about taking a class from this piece of work if I found out her hobby. It isn’t doesn’t matter if it is hetero or homosexual sex, it is the act I find questionable.
JDC
Jesus Christ, JDC, get a grip! *What kind of twist has to write about any sexual encounter between two people anyway*? You serious? There’s a whole industry out there making money of the human need to experience sexuality even if it is just vicariously.
You a monk? An eunuch? A reborn christian? Because if you are a real red-blooded male, don’t tell me you have never looked at a skin mag. So, we womenfolk like our erotica/porn not image-wise, but in text-form. What now? You telling me we’re not allowed to?
kete
Oh, and re citing sources, I don’t keep the URLs of the countless articles and interviews I’ve read during and after the LOTR movies, google them for yourself. But they were handed slash fiction – they were handed photo manips for heaven’s sake! – to autograph and they did react with good humour, so I don’t see why YOU or Lee should get angry on their behalf.
kete
Site your sources Kete, I hate arguments made on a random they.
sad to say it, Kete is right. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but some nit did show two of the Lord of the Rings actors photo manips of themselves, and thus created one of the huger rows fandom has been subject to. Middle of 2003 rings a bell with me.
How convenient for you two. Source: the imaginarium. Get out of town.
What kind of twist writes erotic fiction about sexual encounters between celebrities? Better Kete? I don’t care about material that is fictious, but think it crosses the line when it chronicles real people. I don’t think Johnny Depp wants his kids to Google the net and come across a story detailing his giving a bj to Peter DeLuise.
Yes I do look at skin mags and I like text erotica. One doesn’t have anything to do with the other Kete.
And you Google your own sources, I’m not supporting my arguments with maybes.
By the way, get a grip yourself. You seem to get a lot more aggressive in your responses than I do.
JDC
It gets stranger and stranger, Lee. Here’s Robin Reid’s explanation, which she left as a comment over on Cynthia Pott’s blog:
“The issue of what specific information was posted and why I was concerned involves linking my RL name and my Fandom name. He is not a fan, so he does not know that kind of outing is considered a major problem in fandom.
Saying I write RPS is fine. I said it myself. Saying I am a Ithliana was not something I chose to make public. I consider that invasion of privacy.”
http://eclecticeveryday.blogspot.com/2005/07/plea-for-common-sense.html
*What kind of twist writes erotic fiction about sexual encounters between celebrities? Better Kete?*
Hm, well, yes, JDC – or at least more accurate. But, what does it really matter how we do call our protagonists?
RPS is in fact original fiction, just that the characters are called, for instance, Sean Bean and Elijah Wood and their physical appearance is used to describe the characters in question.
What is used here is an imago, like name, physical appearance and perhaps a few personality traits taken from the celebrity’s public persona. Robin doesn’t write about the real Sean Bean or Elijah Wood. How could she? She doesn’t know them (at least I don’t think so).
RPS fiction can be a Western for instance, just to name one genre that Lee favours. We have a cowboy, let’s say, and a sheriff and a few others and the story is about how the cowboy robs the bank to finance his gambling debts and the sheriff chases him out into the Mojave desert (or something like that). Somewhere in between there’s hot sex of the m/m variety.
Instead of naming the sheriff John Dean, we call him Sean Bean, and the cowboy is not Eddie Ward, but Elijah Wood. This has the advantage that the readers of this genre all know exactly how to imagine the protagonists and fans of Sean and/or Elijah who like that stuff will lap this fic up, too. In fact it’s nothing else but an imagined movie in which the writer casts her favourite actors.
I have no idea why someone should find that weird. To me it seems to be the most normal way of daydreaming in the world.
Regarding Johnny Depp’s kids I hope he uses a net-nanny or is otherwise up to his parental obligations, so that his kids won’t see stuff he doesn’t approve of. It’s not any writer’s duty to parent other people’s children.
kete
*On the other hand, Robin thinks that quoting her biography, the one she posted publicly on the JACK website, is an invasion of her privacy and harassment. Honest to God. I’m not making this stuff up*
Honest to god, you are. Robin does not protest against quoting her bio as published on Jack – what she does protest against is that frakman linked her RL name, Dr Robin Reid, to her fandom name Ithiliana (which was *not* mentioned on Jack nor in her website at the u).
kete
Kete
I don’t agree with you on some points, but I appreciate the well thought out response. Thanks.
JDC
marky48 wrote: How convenient for you two. Source: the imaginarium. Get out of town.
I knew I’d find a reference if I dug long enough, and sure enough a discussion of the event, on what looks like an abandoned Geocities page, but dated on her main page as 5.4.2002 and entitled “To a fan who met Ian McKellen” – worst of all, she’s offering support to the stupid woman. Which means that the incident must have been around March/April 2002.
Said woman herself refers obliquely to the incident on the front page of her journal, here .
I knew I hadn’t dreamed it.
Kete wrote: RPS is in fact original fiction, just that the characters are called, for instance, Sean Bean and Elijah Wood and their physical appearance is used to describe the characters in question.
But that rather begs the question of why writers of RPS/RPF don’t use the time-honoured method of hiding the identity of the body double known as the roman-a-clef – the characters are the same, but they are simply given another name. For example, long (long!) before there was Led Zeppelin RPF/S there was the band “Parralax” (or was it “Paragon”? I know it began with a ‘p’ and their lead singer/guitarist couple Tris/Alex. Everyone knew it was based around Led Zeppelin, but it was never mentioned.
People even do it IRL and get published: find any copy of the huge selling manga (recently released in the West and available from Amazon) “From Eroica with Love” and take a good look at the protagonists. Who has Yasuko Aoike using as her body doubles? Very obviously, Page and Plant.
I agree, though, that, other than making sure my page is clearly marked as unsuitable for minors, it’s no part of my duty to police other people’s children’s use of the internet.
JDC said:
Site your sources Kete, I hate arguments made on a random they.
Like you’re doing, you mean?
Anyway, just from a cursory search on Google: http://www.ypp.net/fullarticle.asp?ID=202:
Actor Ian McKellen, who plays Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings films, says on his Web site: “I find nothing harmful in sharing fantasies about favourite characters or their interpreters… Even real person stories seem unobjectionable as they are clearly fictional.”
And before the objection ‘that’s just a school-girl writing slash herself’ is raised, I suggest going to Sir Ian’s website (http://www.mckellen.com/), where you’ll find that exact quote, verbatim.
If you wanted, you could dig some more and find out that many Lord of the Rings actors like Sean Astin, Elijah Wood, Dominic Monaghan, et al, have all been known to talk about slash and laugh it off good-naturedly.
JDC, you are welcome!
Rommel, thanks for making the effort – I was too lazy to even try.
And re RPS: why not hide the identity of the body doubles? I have no idea. Because the writers don’t want to write romans-a-clef, they want to write RPS?!
As for the examples you’ve quoted, I must admit you’ve quite lost me there as I know next to nothing about popslash or anime.
There is a fic playing in old Egypt where the pharao’s boytoy is called Jah (Elijah), his artist lover is Minique (Dominique) etc.pp. It’s in fact quite funny how the writer manages to adapt the names so that they sound vaguely outlandish to western ears.
But I don’t think it really matters, because even if any friend or relative of the celebrity in question should stumble across that kind of fic they at least – knowing their friend/relative – would know at once that uncle Sean or brother Elijah did neither live in old Egypt nor in Paris in the 1920s.
kete
CZ, you’re a prince/princess! I didn’t even think of that quote although I’ve read it when I followed Ian McKellen’s White Book (good times!). Thanks for posting!
kete
And re RPS: why not hide the identity of the body doubles? I have no idea.
I think the idea was to avoid getting sued for libel, which as I think I said earlier in the thread, could be a real threat if your chosen character has a close association with the UK and a concomitant right to bring a case here. This is because, as I understand it, in the US, FPF/S writers run a greater risk of action than RPF/S. In the UK it’s the other way around.
*bows, princess-like* 😉
Thank YOU, Kete, for making me think of it in the first place!
But especially, thank you for saying:
Robin does not protest against quoting her bio as published on Jack – what she does protest against is that frakman linked her RL name, Dr Robin Reid, to her fandom name Ithiliana (which was *not* mentioned on Jack nor in her website at the u).
That cannot be stressed enough.
If it’s her writing it, who cares what name she “publishes” it under? It sounds like she’s embarassed that she’s been outed — and she should be.
DJM who cares what name she “publishes” it under
Tell me, what is it about the concept of ‘pseudonym’ you’re having difficulty with?
DJM:
If it’s her writing it, who cares what name she “publishes” it under?
Since you ask: I think every author who chooses to write using pseudonyms to keep their RL persona and writer/genre persona separate would very much care.
Their reasons to do so are no-one’s business but theirs. It’s no-one’s business but theirs to decide when/if to ‘come out’.
Hope that answers your question.
Just out of curiousity, and to help me better follow this thread, how do you pronounce Kete?
I didn’t see a legitimate source where the celebrity portrayed acknowledged the writing. Frankly this is just more fanfic pretzel logic. No one here knows a what a source is.
Just because an author choses to use a pseudonym doesn’t mean we need to act like it’s written by a different person. That’s just plain silly. If a person is going to be ashamed of something they wrote (or whatever their feeling is) why on earth would they post it on the internet?
You can find the quote CZ shares above at http://www.mckellen.com/epost/lotr/l021223.htm
http://www.mckellen.com/ is, for the record, Ian Mckellen’s official site, and the answers in the correspondence section are all Ian McKellen’s own words. Claiming that McKellen isn’t a legitimate source is rather silly, and if there’s any “fanfic pretzel logic” to be found it the quote, it’s McKellen himself who is guilty of it.
What you found was this quote of Ian McKellen’s:
“I am not well acquainted with slash but find nothing harmful in sharing fantasies about favourite characters or their interpreters. Within the context of such sites even Real Person stories seem unobjectionable as they are clearly fictional.”
It’s not an endorsement of a specific story, no. It’s a blanket statement saying that slash and RPS stories are clearly fictional and as such, he finds them unobjectionable.
Did writers of RPS wait until he made that statement before writing stories about him?
Have they waited for permission from other celebrities before RPS writers write about them?
I’ve deleted some comments that I thought were out-of-line and purely inflammatory.
I stopped using the Typekey authentication for comments because
a) it was buggy and regular visitors were complaining about not being able to comment and
b)because you can still open an account using fake names and addresses and
c) even I encountered problems trying to post comments on my own blog…
But I will go back to authentication, despite the problems, if discussions here start degenerating into slugfests.
But Harry, do the makers of films ask for or wait for permission from the people or the family of the people they portray before mangling characters beyond recognition? If they are alive, perhaps they have to get a sign off (I wouldn’t know) but they don’t bother with proper research when using the names of people who have died even quite recently.
I’m thinking here of films like Titanic which had I think every character with an English accent portrayed as evil, even the one who had been awarded a postumous medal for gallantry and was remembered as a hero in his home town. Which was in Scotland. So bad was this, and so much of a stink did his descendants kick up, that I believe the film-makers were induced to make charitable donations to good causes in his home town.
The same happened with a war film (U571?) about the capturing of the code books which allowed the Allies to break the Enigma code. They used the names of real-life participants in the drama, but changed so much of the historical background and the personalities of those participants that the film became…well…amusing to those of us who bother reading history.
Those people were dead and (unfortunately) could not sue, but that didn’t make those portrayals any more the truth, and there are people (witness those who will argue about the beliefs of C S Lewis from the film of his life) who get thier history from films.
You see, it seems to me that we’re back to the argument which comes up here about once a month – some people want to have their cake and eat it. They believe, or appear to believe that the rights of the living writer (and their descendants until the 75th year after publication) are sacrosanct but as soon as that magic number has been passed, suddenly fanfiction becomes legitimate literature.
In the same way, it strikes me that the logical outcome of the argument that Harry above puts is that the rights of the living are sacrosanct, but as soon as someone dies, they lose any right to dignity.
As I’ve said earlier in this argument, I’m not a proponent of RPF. I’m particularly not a proponent of RPF when the person selling their tacky little story to people who know no better and who lap it up like it’s true is a mulit-million pound business.
That someone, anyone, makes money (and Titanic grossed millions) out of it strikes me as far more invidious than a few fan writers having a bit of a giggle with even a few hundred of their friends. They’re not selling it and they’re not selling it as ‘history’.
You don’t need to look up ISPs to find the connection between Dr. Robin Reid and Ithiliana. All you have to do is run “Lee Goldberg” and “Robin Reid” through Blogpulse and you’ll discover that Robin clumsily outed herself!
The searches will bring up a link to Cynthia Potts’ discussion about JACK, where Robin comments extensively under her own name:
http://eclecticeveryday.blogspot.com/2005/06/fanfiction-stupidity.html
The search will also bring up her Live Journal entries in which Robin discusses the Cynthia Potts post and the comments she posted there:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ithiliana/391101.html
You don’t need to be a deductive genius to figure out Robin Reid is Ithiliana…because she outed herself. If she’s looking to assign blame, she should look in the mirror.
(Is that more civil, Lee?)
Apparently I’m the only one who is inflammatory. Good luck with your discussion on defamatory fiction. This is the perfect place for it.
*If it’s her writing it, who cares what name she “publishes” it under? It sounds like she’s embarassed that she’s been outed — and she should be.
DJM, she’s not embarrassed and neither should she be. She’s a tenured professor at a obviously liberal university where she enjoys the academic freedom to write what takes her fancy – especially in her private and leger time!
She’s understandably a little annoyed that she’s been outed, because that was *her* decision to make and not frakman’s.
kete
*Just out of curiousity, and to help me better follow this thread, how do you pronounce Kete?*
You plan on calling me, Bill? 😉 I think it would be pronounced cayte (with a short e like in leg at the end).
kete
I don’t get it then. She writes it and posts it on the internet, but now she’s upset that people know she wrote it? That makes no sense to me.
*Did writers of RPS wait until he made that statement before writing stories about him?*
If you had followed the link Rommel gave, you could have seen that the writer in question clearly did not wait for Sir Ian to give his permission, but showed him her website with fics about him (and his current BF Nick?) finished and net-published *before* the fact. That he *still* reacted with bonhomie and generosity clearly shows a sovereignity of mind and security in his sexuality that not every individual on this blog can boast.
*Have they waited for permission from other celebrities before RPS writers write about them?*
Probably not, but then they’re not written in the expectation that the *star* will show up on your website. Clearly it’s not always a good idea to google ones own name.
kete
*In the same way, it strikes me that the logical outcome of the argument that Harry above puts is that the rights of the living are sacrosanct, but as soon as someone dies, they lose any right to dignity.*
Rommel, it’s the difficulty with every historic fiction, methinks. What, for instance, about the book “The Last Place on Earth” by Roland Huntford who portrays Robert Falcon Scott, a man who’s revered in England, as a complete moron who never should have been entrusted with any expedition at all? It’s very difficult to judge yesteryear’s events from today’s point of view. But every writer is allowed their opinion.
RPS at least makes it very clear that it is FICTION, like in MADE UP or PHANTASY and therefore bears no resemblence whatsoever to any reality past, present and future.
kete
*You don’t need to look up ISPs to find the connection between Dr. Robin Reid and Ithiliana. All you have to do is run “Lee Goldberg” and “Robin Reid” through Blogpulse and you’ll discover that Robin clumsily outed herself!*
And what will we find out about you, little mouse, if we really make an effort to track you down, huh?
kete
*I don’t get it then. She writes it and posts it on the internet, but now she’s upset that people know she wrote it? That makes no sense to me.*
Oookay, DJM, once more with feeling: Ithiliana writes RPS under the name (you guessed it) Ithiliana on her LJ. She uses this LJ as well for personal entries.
Robin Reid writes original homoerotic fiction for Jack. She publishes an author profile on Jack giving her real name, RR. But nowhere does it say RR = Ithiliana.
Dr Robin Reid has a personal website at her university. Nowhere does it say Dr Reid = RR, author of erotic fiction = Ithiliana, author of RPS.
As she used her real name for her original homoerotic fiction this shows, I think, that she’s not ashamed of it. And why should she be?
That she did not necessarily want the whole world to know that RR = Ithiliana, although her fannish friends obviously were aware of the fact, is her good right, because she apparently sometimes posts a little more personal things on her blog that not everyone reading it must connect to Robin Reid the professor.
Clear now or can I be of any further assistance?
kete
But every writer is allowed their opinion.
Well, yes, as long as it is presented as opinion or speculation, and not as fact.
It is sometimes difficult for the average man (and woman) in the street to separate fact from fiction; that’s one of the risks that RPFers (and makers of historical films) have to face. And, really, never underestimate the power of stupidity – or (as this debate has displayed) malice.
I’m just sayin’: all it would take for a very nasty incident which could cost someone their job/a lot of money/their professional reputation would be an RPS/F story which was just close enough to reality to be dangerous, a reporter with grudge, and a slow news day.
Or, alternatively, a show/band not putting enough bums on seats, a reporter with a name to make and a slow news day.
Do you see what I mean?
*Do you see what I mean?*
Yeah, absolutely. But, if a reporter would pick up on a story clearly labeled as fiction and run with it, I suppose both parties (writer *and* celebrity) could sue the journalist and/or the newspaper in question? Of course, lots of damage could be done and the clarification appearing a week later on page six won’t be much help.
kete
Mark,
I deleted half-a-dozen comments, including one from you and one from David Montgomery, among others.
Lee
Call her potayto or call her potahto, it’s all the same person. It’s disingenous to act like her writings or postings aren’t really hers.
If she doesn’t want people to know that she’s writing it, I suppose that’s her business, but nobody else has to play along if they don’t want to.
If someone posted her phone number or home address, that would be out of line. But to point out something that she’s written and posted on the internet for everyone to see makes it fair game.
Of course, unlike you and she, I don’t hide behind a made-up name.
*Of course, unlike you and she, I don’t hide behind a made-up name.*
Oh, you’re so much holier than me – but how do you know that kete isn’t my real name? If you want it, you can have it: Silke Ketelsen, D-Bonhoeffer-Str. 3A, D-40667 Meerbusch, +492132-8507. Come around and visit if you happen to be in the area. Content?
kete
You’re a braver woman than I am, Kete. P M Rommel is not my real name; it isn’t even my usual online pseud.
Rommel, from my very beginnings on the internet all my eMails have had my signature with all my contact infos on it. What’s the worst that can happen? Spam mail?
kete
What’s the worst that can happen?
That you say something (it need not even be something particularly bad, I’ve seen flame wars erupt over what I thought were the most harmless comments) that someone takes the wrong way, and they turn out to be (a) a nutcase with a very fierce dog and a hair-trigger temper and (b) that nutcase is your next-door neighbour.
Perhaps less likely in a small town in Germany where you perhaps know almost everyone, (though I’ve visited Germany quite extensively, I don’t recognise Meerbusch so I suspect it’s in a part I’ve never been to) but I live in London where nutters abound even before I’ve annoyed ’em.
I’m with you, Kete…I’ve always posted under my own name where ever I go on the Internet. I consider it a matter of principle. I can’t help noticing that 99% of the most opinionated flamers and abusive insult-slingers always hide behind pseudonyms. That makes it easy for them to behave in ways they never would if they had to take personal responsibility for their words and deeds.
(The only time I have ever used a pseudonym was on the .357 VIGILANTE books for Pinnacle, but that was at the publisher’s insistence so they could hire ghost writers if the series was a hit and we decided to stop writing them. That said, my name is on the copyright page for all to see)
Kete, I’m pleased that you own up to your posts. I was wrong in thinking that wasn’t your real name. (I wrongly assumed that both you and Rommel were frauds, but apparently it’s just her.) If I’m ever in Germany, I’ll stop by. I’m a great admirer of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
*Perhaps less likely in a small town in Germany where you perhaps know almost everyone, (though I’ve visited Germany quite extensively, I don’t recognise Meerbusch so I suspect it’s in a part I’ve never been to) but I live in London where nutters abound even before I’ve annoyed ’em.*
Well, Meerbusch is a very nice little town near Düsseldorf and although it’s too big already to know everyone I’m not afraid of anyone. And dogs? My family keeps great danes, so not a worry.
kete
*Kete, I’m pleased that you own up to your posts. I was wrong in thinking that wasn’t your real name. (I wrongly assumed that both you and Rommel were frauds, but apparently it’s just her.) If I’m ever in Germany, I’ll stop by. I’m a great admirer of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.*
Looking forward to it, DJM. 😉
But Rommel is right to be careful in a real big city like London – especially as it is more likely that Londoners read Lee’s blog than Meerbuschers – although I would just love a crazy incident like meeting, say, my dentist or someone online here, LOL!
kete
kete
It’s silly to worry that people are going to find you online and attack you or something. Even if you do go around provoking people like Rommell, I don’t think you’re in any danger. Hell, nobody’s killed Mark York yet.
*I’m with you, Kete…I’ve always posted under my own name where ever I go on the Internet. I consider it a matter of principle. I can’t help noticing that 99% of the most opinionated flamers and abusive insult-slingers always hide behind pseudonyms. That makes it easy for them to behave in ways they never would if they had to take personal responsibility for their words and deeds.*
I have to admit that it feels unusual to have you agreeing to something I do or say, Lee. 😉 But it’s nice to know that there are at least some areas of congruency.
I do anything I do on the net out in the open, have always and will always. It’s a matter of pride for me.
kete
Sorry if it looks like I did a drive-by posting. I’ve been having trouble with my email software. That’s been taking up a lot of my time.
In the same way, it strikes me that the logical outcome of the argument that Harry above puts is that the rights of the living are sacrosanct, but as soon as someone dies, they lose any right to dignity.
Actually, this is a straw man. I didn’t say anything about the rights of the living vs. those of the dead.
My actual point was that it doesn’t matter to slash writers whether the real person they’re writing about approves, or doesn’t care, or is deeply troubled. The writers don’t care.
And while it’s fine for Sir Ian McKellan to shrug off RPS, that doesn’t prove that there aren’t others who would be bothered. It’s just one anecdote.
In fact, it wouldn’t matter if you listed a string of actors who don’t care. As we all ought to know, the plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”
If they are alive, perhaps they have to get a sign off (I wouldn’t know) but they don’t bother with proper research when using the names of people who have died even quite recently.
I suspect that someone does the proper research, and then the research gets thrown away in order to make the story more exciting. It’s wrong. It may be legal, but it’s still wrong.
Clearly it’s not always a good idea to google ones own name.
In other words, if you don’t like it, tough.
Maybe RPS is legal. Maybe not. But it definitely is obnoxious.
*I do anything I do on the net out in the open, have always and will always. It’s a matter of pride for me*
Except, Kete, for when you post under the name of your sockpuppet, Lonicera, of course 😉
What I learned from this discussion:
1) Men are always right, even when they twist reality to make it fit their bias.
2) Men, furthermore, can say whatever they want without bothering with proving their statements or even doing any minimum of research.
3) Women, otoh, are always wrong and need to research every single thing they say if they don’t want to be thought lazy liars.
4) It doesn’t matter, ’cause they’ll be considered liars anyway and will get talked to condescendingly. At best.
5) Men get to decide the way women’s sexuality works, and what fantasies it should consist of, and if women dare to disagree, they’re pathetic losers who can’t get a ‘real’ man and that’s why, omg, they’re so sick and twisted as to turn men into lust objects–the same way men do to women! *gasp* Inconceivable!
I suppose this is probably going to be deleted, but I also want to say: Kete, I admire you and your stamina in trying to reason with the unreasonable. You rock. Lots.
P M Rommel: even though we obviously don’t see eye to eye re: RPF, your comments have been a pleasure to read–I could tell that you really wanted to discuss things, not just to prove you’re rightrightrightnomatterwhatyouallsay. I appreciate that. Thank you.
DJM & Lee: pseudonyms = frauds? You mean that everyone who ever used a pseudonym/nickname/initials/whatever is a fraud? And you say this ON THE INTERNET? …oh, never mind. See 1) and 2), I guess.
*Clearly it’s not always a good idea to google ones own name.
In other words, if you don’t like it, tough.*
We, tough is the way of the world, isn’t it? There’s so much written about celebrities out there, they’d better grow a thick skin, I think.
Just a few posts ago Lee posted an image of that actress, Hunter Whatshername, and asked whether she had anything done to her face (surgery-wise) and that she looked alien or something.
What do you think she will make of *that* if she googles her own name? Don’t you think she would prefer a fanfic where she’s written as gorgeous and fascinating – even if she’s written in a relationship with, hmm, say, Farah Fawcett (another surgery-victim)?
kete
I meant to respond to this, too, but my post was too long (and I have vacuuming to do.)
That someone, anyone, makes money (and Titanic grossed millions) out of it strikes me as far more invidious than a few fan writers having a bit of a giggle with even a few hundred of their friends. They’re not selling it and they’re not selling it as ‘history’.
I agree about selling fiction as “history.” It’s a nasty thing to do, although I don’t think movies do that explicitly. And I think most people understand it to be fiction.
Still, labeling it fiction doesn’t relieve them of the burden of doing honor to the people they’re portraying.
Also, the whole “earning money” argument doesn’t travel well from the discussion about slash about fictional people to RPS. Would any of those offending movies have been forgiven if they’d been money-losers? I’m pretty sure the sub movie *did* lose money, but that didn’t stop people griping about the changes.
I don’t think a lie told about a real person is made more acceptable by the fact that it earned no money/lost money. I don’t think it’s worse because it made a lot of money. Misrepresentations are misrepresentations, even if you label it as “fiction.”
CZ, that sort of meta-argument is worthless. Please address specific issues.
*Except, Kete, for when you post under the name of your sockpuppet, Lonicera, of course ;-)*
faolein, Lonicera and I have been called sockpuppets and been accused of posting anonymously or as the other one so often, it’s actually quite funny. Lonicera is, in fact, my friend Heike K. from Ratingen (another little town near Düsseldorf) whose details I won’t publicly give away because they’re not mine to share.
kete
*1) Men are always right, even when they twist reality to make it fit their bias.
2) Men, furthermore, can say whatever they want without bothering with proving their statements or even doing any minimum of research.*
What do you want, CZ, men are the superior whatever…. snort. 😉
It’s sort of our own fault, you know. We have let them get away with it far too long.
*I suppose this is probably going to be deleted, but I also want to say: Kete, I admire you and your stamina in trying to reason with the unreasonable. You rock. Lots.*
Thank you, princess. curtseys 😉
*Rommel: even though we obviously don’t see eye to eye re: RPF, your comments have been a pleasure to read–I could tell that you really wanted to discuss things, not just to prove you’re rightrightrightnomatterwhatyouallsay. I appreciate that.*
I like Rommel, too. She’s always reasonable. But I’m actually quite disappointed. I thought she was a guy. Should have known better. See under 1) and 2).
kete
Don’t you think she would prefer a fanfic where she’s written as gorgeous and fascinating – even if she’s written in a relationship with, hmm, say, Farah Fawcett (another surgery-victim)?
Mebbe. I know I sure would.
But Lee is expressing an opinion about the world, or an aspect of it. What he’s saying may be harsh, but I have different standards for speech that expresses opinion than speech that fulfills “phantasy” if I may steal your spelling.
I don’t have a problem with the itch that gets scratched by slash fiction. I just don’t think writers should use real people to scratch it.
And I don’t want to create a world in which no one reads something they might find unpleasant. I do want people to have control over their own names and identities.
Let me ask a question of my own: What limits should RPS have? Is it okay to write George Wallace/MLK Jr. slash? Should it be okay to write OJ/Ronald Goldman slash? Would anyone here object to those stories as unseemly or immoral?
Also, if such slash already exists, please don’t tell me about it. I don’t want to know.
CZ — You’re just being silly now. This isn’t a male/female argument. How would anyone even know that you’re a woman unless you tell them? (And I only assume that you are now because of the tenor of your post.) Gender has nothing to do with any of this.
And I certainly didn’t say that people using pseudonyms are frauds. I said that someone who posts something on the internet (or publishes it in print) should not be surprised or offended if that material is then traced back to them — even if they did originally post/publish it under a fake name.
If one actually wants to keep something secret, they would never put it on the internet in any form. Professing outrage and saying “But I wrote that under my penname, the Great Cornholio! You shouldn’t say I wrote that” is idiotic.
Harry, I notice that you like to make moral judgments (‘this is wrong, that’s obnoxious, that is worthless,’ etc) but I don’t see where the ‘specific data’ on which they’re based on are. Perhaps I missed them…?
Kete: *curtseys right back* (Ooh, this is fun ;))
*Mebbe. I know I sure would.*
Harry, clearly you haven’t seen Farah in a long time. shudders
*But Lee is expressing an opinion about the world, or an aspect of it. What he’s saying may be harsh, but I have different standards for speech that expresses opinion than speech that fulfills “phantasy” if I may steal your spelling.*
But is a negative, but honest opinion not far more insulting than a clearly labeled fantasy (right?) which even if it doesn’t get your sexual preferences right at least portrays you as attractive?
*Let me ask a question of my own: What limits should RPS have? Is it okay to write George Wallace/MLK Jr. slash? Should it be okay to write OJ/Ronald Goldman slash? Would anyone here object to those stories as unseemly or immoral?*
Well, clearly nothing’s holy. I don’t know about the pairings you indicate, but there’s God/Lucifer slash out there…. Would I read it? Probably not. Do I object to it being written? Why would I?
kete
DJM: Gender has nothing to do with any of this.
If you say so…
And I certainly didn’t say that people using pseudonyms are frauds.
Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you said: I was wrong in thinking that wasn’t your real name. (I wrongly assumed that both you and Rommel were frauds, but apparently it’s just her.)
…did I?
CZ, I’m sorry that you don’t understand how this works. I look forward to skipping your posts from now on.
Harry, clearly you haven’t seen Farah in a long time. shudders
kete, I’ll grant that it’s been a few years, but she can’t look worse than I do (barring some sort of combine accident I haven’t heard about).
But is a negative, but honest opinion not far more insulting than a clearly labeled fantasy (right?) which even if it doesn’t get your sexual preferences right at least portrays you as attractive?
For some people it would be. My point is that not everyone would feel the way you do.
People are weird about sex, as everyone here knows. It is, I think, unfair to enjoy RPS in part for its transgressive qualities while at the same time saying no one should protest its transgressions.
It gets its squee from the boundaries it crosses, and I’m making the argument that publishing slash about real people crosses a boundary that should be left alone–unless the person in question has given explicit permission.
You’re right, CZ. I was unclear. Allow me to clarify (assuming you’re actually interested):
Writers who publish fiction under pseudonyms are not frauds. (Well, I guess I should say they probably are not. If they’re Robert Tanenbaum, for example, they’re definitely pushing the envelope.)
People who hide behind fake names when posting inflammatory messages on BBS’s and backblogs are.
I don’t consider the latter to be people using pseudonyms; rather they are provacateurs using fake names. There’s a difference.
And I’m still wondering how anyone would know your sex (considering you don’t have a gender-specific “name”) unless you told them.
p.s. Kete herself pointed out that she thought Rommel was a man.
*p.s. Kete herself pointed out that she thought Rommel was a man.*
Well, with a name like Rommel it just didn’t occur to me that a woman would choose it. But then the very fact that “he” was always so calm and reasonable should have warned me that she was actually a woman. Such a pity: the male side of the world just lost a plus point it really cannot afford to lose.
kete
Well nobody’s killed me for arguing with facts although they may have wanted to. Thanks for suggesting it though David. Freud at work? I’ll watch my topknot like John Colter.
” deleted half-a-dozen comments, including one from you and one from David Montgomery, among others.
Lee”
Sorry Lee, it was early and the coffee hadn’t kicked in. I didn’t remember the others or possibly never saw them in the first place.
I delete troll comments too. They come just to insult me personally and have no argument save they don’t like mine. I don’t allow personal insults. Kidding is one thing but these aren’t. I have “hit” reviews on my books and I know they’ve never read them. Unless you’re Publishamerica they stay put. I can’t get them removed. Nice bunch, these blog trolls.
DJM: I don’t consider the latter to be people using pseudonyms; rather they are provacateurs using fake names. There’s a difference.
Indeed there is, and I do agree with you here. Thanks for clearing that up. (And yes, I was genuinely interested in your reply. 🙂
Just one more thing:
And I’m still wondering how anyone would know your sex (considering you don’t have a gender-specific “name”) unless you told them.
Maybe I was not very clear myself. The point of the comment you’re referring to wasn’t about *me*, but about the attitude I saw on this blog about RPS writers (most of them women, afaik) and Dr. Reid specifically (again, a woman) writing RPS. My post was about that, not about people’s replies to me as a gender-vague entity.
David J. Montgomery: I wrongly assumed that both you and Rommel were frauds, but apparently it’s just her.
DJM: I certainly didn’t say that people using pseudonyms are frauds.
DJM: People who hide behind fake names when posting inflammatory messages on BBS’s and backblogs are.
Hmmm…interesting that CZ and Kete think that I’m reasonable and calm, but you think that I’m inflammatory. Could it be that I have the temerity to disagree with you?
Why is it that you think I’m a fraud? Fraud is a word with a very specific meaning, and I don’t think you’re using it here as I understand it. I can assure you that were you to meet me in person, you’d discover that the opinions I post here under the name “P M Rommel” are the actual opinions held by a real person.
Why I decided to choose a pseudonym two steps removed from my real identity and one step from my usual online persona, I’ll discuss in the separate thread Lee has started for the purpose, but it stems from the original interaction he had with the “God Awful Fanfiction Forum” last year.
DJM: If one actually wants to keep something secret, they would never put it on the internet in any form. Professing outrage and saying “But I wrote that under my penname, the Great Cornholio! You shouldn’t say I wrote that” is idiotic.
That conflates ‘keeping something secret’ with ‘writing under a pseudonym’ which you have already said you have no problem with.
I think the problem here is that you (and probably some of the rest of the commentators on this blog) don’t understand fannish interaction, specifically that fen have unwritten rules about conduct which have evolved over many years. That’s fine, you don’t have to. But don’t be surprised when that lack of understanding means that you’re treated as if you have the tact of an army mule and the geniality of plutonium, and we take steps to ensure that the things we think are important are protected.
Harry: My actual point was that it doesn’t matter to slash writers whether the real person they’re writing about approves, or doesn’t care, or is deeply troubled. and later, I don’t have a problem with the itch that gets scratched by slash fiction. I just don’t think writers should use real people to scratch it.
To perhaps clarify, the first point is about RPF/RPS writers, not about the totality of slash writers. You accept this in the second: not all slash writers write RPS. Not all RP writers write slash, some real-people stories are gen (no sex) or het (heterosexual sex).
Kete: I like Rommel, too. She’s always reasonable. But I’m actually quite disappointed. I thought she was a guy.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed. I’m reasonably sure I have made posts in which I’ve started sentences “I’m a woman who…” but you must have missed them. If it helps, the original “P M Rommel” from which I borrowed the name is at least arguably male – I’ll explain the source in the response to Lee’s identity posting, so won’t cover it here.
CZ: The point of the comment you’re referring to wasn’t about *me*, but about the attitude I saw on this blog about RPS writers
It was a well-made point which I think deserves more consideration than it’s received, because I do think that it’s at the heart of at least some of the objections to slash and to fanfiction in general.
Fandom itself (with variations by fandom, as I’ve discussed before) is at least 50% women, and any group which is half women will be perceived as being female dominated; slash in particular is a female space, I’d estimate it as being 90% women at the very least. It follows therefore those reactions which condemn slash at the very least run the risk of appearing to condemn a particularly female expression of sexuality, and it should not be a surprise that women who are affected object. That some do so stridently, should not come as a surprise, either.
I won’t speak for Lee, but I would find a man who writes the same crap as Dr. Reid to be equally as absurd and deserving of ridicule. She isn’t a moron because she has a vagina; she’s a moron because of who she is.
As for authors and pseudonyms… it’s fine if a writer want to publish using one. Lots of people do it. However, nobody else is under any obligation to keep the secret.
For example: Mark Twain was actually Samuel Clemens. The guy who wrote Primary Colors was Joe Klein!
Turning off Rommel’s bold tag (hopefully).
DJM I won’t speak for Lee, but I would find a man who writes the same crap as Dr. Reid to be equally as absurd and deserving of ridicule. She isn’t a moron because she has a vagina; she’s a moron because of who she is.
That isn’t the point that I made, or the one that CZ was making.
I do understand that you criticised Dr Reid, and that you would equally have done so had she been a man.
However, if the criticisms levelled at slash and at fanfiction taken as a whole (looking over the entire blog and your comments on it) are mostly made by men, and tend to be critical of fanfiction and slash as a totality (as opposed to specific examples of fanfiction), which I think they are, and the participants in fanfiction and specifically slash are overwhelmingly women (and my experience is that they are) it isn’t such a leap of logic to see that as a gender divide, as a male attempt to constrain the imagination of women and the expression of women’s sexuality.
To be clear: it’s not an argument which I’d fully support, not without a good deal of research, but it is relevant, it is interesting, and I can see why CZ makes the point. That you condemn it without being prepared to consider it even as relevant is also interesting and possibly indicative.
PS Let’s hope you did switch the bold tag off. Sigh.
Still trying switch that pesky tag off. Did that work?
I hope the bold is now gone.
Yay! Bold tag dead!
It follows therefore those reactions which condemn slash at the very least run the risk of appearing to condemn a particularly female expression of sexuality, and it should not be a surprise that women who are affected object. That some do so stridently, should not come as a surprise, either.
(double checking to make sure tag is closed…)
First, I’ll note that the only people making blatantly sexist comments in this long, long thread are, I believe, female.
Second, I was not aware that slash was predominantly female. I had the feeling that it might be, but I didn’t know for sure. On what do you base your assertion? (That’s not a ‘prove it’, that’s a ‘please tell me more.’)
As I said on other posts and comment trains, I’m really on the fence on this topic. On one hand, fanfic (even slash) seems to me to be pretty harmless, and an exercise in free expression. On the other, it seems at least somewhat disrespectful. The sociology (or is it psychology?) of the whole fanfic scene is interesting to me, even if the product, almost exclusively, is not.
I have tried. Really. I’ve been to fanfiction.net. I read a couple of RPS pieces on Illiana’s (ok, that’s not the right name, but you know who I mean), and while it was competently written from a strictly technical standpoint, I did not find it interesting.
Also, if the sampling that I’ve read is representative, virtually all of the stuff on fanfiction.net is pretty awful stuff.
Hey, you were having fun without me! 😉
Rommel, don’t get me wrong: I’m not disappointed that you’re a woman, I’m disappointed that my impression that there was a sensible and well-behaved man on this blog was wrong!
kete
I have tried. Really. I’ve been to fanfiction.net.
Well, that’s half the problem, right there. Fanfiction.net has aquired the nickname The Pit Of Voles among fanfic writers and readers. It’s getting near impossible to find good fics on that site, and the rules for submitting stories are constantly changing. I usually Google for the types of fanfics I’m looking for rather than try and sort through that mess. I also recommend looking at people’s lists of recommeneded fics to see which authors come up frequently. Those that come up more often on the rec lists, are usually the better writers.
Second, I was not aware that slash was predominantly female. I had the feeling that it might be, but I didn’t know for sure. On what do you base your assertion?
(1) Experience. I’ve run various SF and media conventions, including slash conventions. At media conventions the gender mix will depend on the show: Star Trek will be around 75% women, something like Blake’s 7 will be around 65% women, Dr Who will be 30% women, to pick three that I’ve actual experience of. A Harry Potter convention I went to was about 85% women.
But the attendance at slash-specific panels will range from 90% women to 100% women – meaning generally that if there are two or three men present, that’s all there are. Slash conventions are the same, I think the last one I ran (yes, there are slash-only conventions) was 65 women and one man, and that man was the husband of one of the women present. I’ve been to and run slash conventions with no men present at all. None.
(2) The work of Constance Penley, Henry Jenkins and others consistently report that much of fannish culture is female and that active participants in very many fandoms (though not all) tend to be women.
Coming late to this because, well, even I can’t take reading this shit but once a month or so, even with the binds of family being what they are. Anyway, I find it odd that no one (as in: Lee) noted that Ms. Reid says on her opening page of fic that “All content in this journal should be considered copyrighted by me, and as such any/all unauthorized duplication or publication without my consent is prohibited.” I’m sure the people who, you know, hold the copyright to the characters would find that interesting.
This discussion is getting out-of-hand. I’ve deleted a bunch of messages and I will delete any others that stray from the topic into personal attacks. I won’t let my “back blog” turn into a sewer. Take it to your own blogs.
Now you know why I called this blog entry “Hypocrisy 101.”
If she’s writing RPF, fiction about real people, those people aren’t copyrighted. They’re real. The problem there is that it’s (potentially) libel, not copyright infringement. How do you copyright yourself? If I wrote a book about a person called “Lee Goldberg” and made him a spy or a policeman, or a cobbler living in Dundee, you wouldn’t have an argument to say I couldn’t use that name.
If I made him a TV writer with various unpleasant habits you might reasonably object to my using a name which you happen to possess on the grounds that the ignorant and stupid may connect him with you. That would be quite reasonable. Libel is a whole different legal ball game and I wouldn’t want to play.
I don’t see that Dr Reid is being at all hypocritical by claiming she has the copyright on those works. She wrote them, so she does. But if the real people object to their names being used in that way, I can entirely understand that and I’m absolutely right behind them on that point.
Only if she were writing about fictional characters owned by someone else might that argument work.
PM, I believe it’s on the front splash for her LOTR fan fiction.
But Tod, as I understand it, LotR is one of the universes where the original creator gave tacit permission for people to write in it. I’m not a Tolkein expert, but I think it’s been argued that he expected people to do so, a little like H P Lovecraft.
As I understand it, and perhaps he can clarify since the claim was made by someone else, Lee’s interest and criticism is limited to universes where the orginal creator isn’t or wasn’t supportive.
In any case, the original post at the head of this discussion is very clearly about real-people fiction.
The hypocrisy was referring to her complaints about “invasion of privacy”, while at the same time invading other people’s privacy by making up stories about them.
As for the LOTR fanfic being encouraged – tell that to the Tolkien estate. They even tried to copyright the word “shire”…
They even tried to copyright the word “shire”…
As is common with this subject, ‘trademark’ and ‘copyright’ are being confused.
You cannot, as far as I am aware, copyright a word. Copyright exists automatically (you don’t have to register) on any original creative work, and I don’t believe that a single English word could possibly fit that definition. I don’t know if a madeup word is covered by copyright, either: is JK Rowling the only person who can use the word ‘muggle’? I suspect not.
A trademark, on the other hand, is much more difficult thing to obtain, and is really the only possible thing that the Tolkein estate might have tried to apply to the word ‘shire’. A trademark is something that stands for your company, or some aspect of your company, a thing under which you do business, and it must be vigorously defended.
People mix the two up all the time. They are not at all the same thing.
All right then, they tried to trademark it. Which they didn’t, now that I’ve double checked – they tried to force shiremail.com to hand over the domain, as the word “shire”, they argued, has come to be identified with the LOTR books, and that people might think shiremail was something to do with the books.
Either way, they’re not the sort of people who would look fondly on fan fiction, I suspect. I could be wrong, so feel free to ask them if you can write stories based on their characters.
There is a substantial difference between ‘trademark’ and ‘copyright’. IANAL, of course, but if any of the character names were trademarked (and I suspect that this might be the case) then the situation is different. If any of the character names are trademarked, then according to the law they cannot look kindly on people using the names, or they risk losing that trademark.
I’m not going to get into arguing about it. I just wanted to make the point that people often confuse copyright and trademark, and that the two are very different. People wind up making assumptions about copyright law based on things they’ve heard on the news about violations of trademark law, and vice-versa. Both are convoluted and extensive sets of laws that sometimes intersect.
Okay, I’m sorry I mixed up the two words, it won’t happen again. I’m not arguing about it either, you were right and I was wrong, no need to rub salt into the wound.
But my original point still stands, in that I very much doubt that they would look kindly on fan fiction. Would that be a fair statement, considering that they once tried to force someone to hand over the domain shiremail.com? If they don’t even like people using the word “shire” (something I’m sure the residents of Hampshire, Yorkshire, and so on, would have something to say about), it’s likely that fan fiction wouldn’t exactly give them the warm fuzzies…
Perhaps the Tolkein estate was more concerned because it’s possible “shiremail.com” was a commercial venture and if trademark was at issue, they feared the confusion of an estate authorized and connected service? (although they’ve had more success with trying to trademark “Hobbit” for a variety of goods and services as McCaffrey did with “Dragonriders of Pern”.)
I really don’t think that this subject is a big deal.. Of course that this coming for an yaoi and slash fan might not be the best to say, but I still don’t understand why all the talk and prejudice.. Because I really don’t think any stories, even RPS, is created to be offensive, after all the majority of the authors have the sense to put in their stories things called Disclaimers: “all fiction, never happened, no disrespect intended”; maybe some people are offended by this type of fanfiction just as others love it!, I just really think that is a matter of taste, if you like you read it, if not, just close the damn page and go somewhere else!.. I just don’t see a point to all this disagreement.. the only good thing in all this subject, is really that not everyone is as close-minded as others, and I sure thank that people, because it’s then that make this world different and bearable.
KB let me see if I can yank the premise into focus for you. Authors who create reality-based characters that are fictional in a context created by the author, generally don’t like tasteless amateurs adopting them for less than scholarly purposes. Make up your own. I mean in the contexts you cite, does it matter that they’ve been made famous by someone with talent? I mean really.
This whole discussion seems to ignore a long literary tradition of fictional stories being written about real people as a valid part of the literary genre, sexual fantasy or not. There just seems to be the inherent bias of “It is not my taste. As such, the burden of proof is on those who support the material to show that anyone else who falls into my view as credible would accept this material.”
I would ask do those people who protest against Real Person Fic protest similar material that is part of the very grain of our society? Is Dracula, based on Vlad III, something worthy of scorn? Is the Christian Bible invasive and offensive? Do we condemn shakespeare and Dante for writing real people into their fictional stories? Is Natalie Clifford Barney worthy of our scorn for her Roman A Clef stories where everyone knew who was who? Is the line drawn when the creators of this material are allowed to profit from their fictional creations? Disney’s Pocohantas, the Erin Brockovich film, Cinderella Man, Ray? Are these to acceptable even though they fictionalize events? Are there objections from the masses regarding the creation of fictional stories on reality shows?
It would be helpful if the line was clearly drawn between where the professional, where the literary tradition allowed for these materials and where the fans were not allowed to tread. Perhaps enlightenment can be offered. Or is this a matter of people’s sexual kinks and preferences and reading choices?
Real Person Fic has existed since the 1960s. It appeared in the official fanzines of numerous bands between that period and the late 1990s. Bands like Led Zepplin, Duran Duran were aware of this. Franz Ferdinand has been quoted as saying he loves it. American Idol contestants are aware of it. Fans slash eachother and very few people object. Lucy Lawless was quoted as saying that she hasn’t a problem with being viewed as a sex object. NSync and Backstreet Boy fan fiction was officially canonized by American On-line who gave the fans, with knowledge of the band, fan fiction message boards. Over time, there has only been one cease and desist for this material. See Andy Pettite.
The questions regarding fantasy… There does not seem to be much of a line between fantasy and real person fic. If you have a problem with people sharing fantasies, I suggest you hold a mirror up to the society you are part of. People are marketed as sex objects. We’re encouraged to share our fantasies. We’re asked to engage in escapism.
Fictionalizing real people puts them into a better context. It takes them out of a real context and puts them into a context of fiction, not reality, not something to be encouraged to act on. Real Person Fic communities are better than most communities in keeping the lines clear between celebrity lust and actually approaching said celebrity. This is not true in other parts of our culture. You do not see in Real Person Fic communities people discussing their actual desire to rape actors like Daniel Radcliffe. You generally do not see threats to the people involved in a show, like the actress of Cho Chan from Harry Potter faces. You do not see fans like those of Robert Duncan McNeil asking his children for his home phone number and trying to get the man to strip on stage. Real Person Fic communities generally are good with making sure that, as a community, the boundaries are kept. This stands in contrast to the greater society which seems to encourage the greater violation of this space, of trying to reach out and touch them, to become closer to celebrities.
There has been on cease and desist in the history of RPF on-line. There is a long literary tradition of writing fictional stories about real people. Fantasies are part of and encourages by our culture. The communities demand appropiate behaviour.
Were there other objections beyond that logical fallacy of “I don’t want it written about me so others don’t want it written about them?” or the type referenced on Fandom_Wank?
Go to her web page. Check out the photo. Note the hairstyle.
A simple case of her vibrator shorting out. Must have scrambled some brain cells in the process……..
I know this post is old, and there’s not much point adding to it now, but I will anyway, since I found this post through google search today.
“Robin clumsily outed herself!” Robin Reid was outed by another fandom site, as several other people have been. Since then, most people in fandom avoid said site like the plague.
It was only after this happened Ms. Reid made these posts in her blog, since it was too late for any kind of secrecy.
As I said, I know it’s too late for this to be part of the discussion, but I just wanted to clear that up.