The Mystery Writers of America has revised the language of their definition of "self-publication" for membership application, publisher approval, and Edgar eligibility. The changes were made for greater clarity and specificity.
“Self-published”
or “cooperatively published” works include, but are not limited to:
the author has paid all or part of the cost of publication, marketing,
distribution of the work, or any other fees pursuant to an agreement between
the author and publisher, cooperative publisher or book packager;
b) Works printed and
bound by a company that does not sell or distribute the work to
brick-and-mortar bookstores;
c) Those works published
by a privately held publisher or in collaboration with a book packager wherein the
writer has a familial relationship with the publisher, editor, or any
managerial employee, officer, director or owner of the publisher or book
packager;
d) Those works published
by companies or imprints that do not publish other authors;
e) Those works published
by a publisher or in collaboration with a book packager in which the author has
a direct or indirect financial interest;
f) Those works published
in an anthology or magazine in which the author is also an editor, except an
anthology or magazine for which the author is a guest editor.
g) Those works published
in an anthology or magazine wherein the author has a familial relationship with
the editor or publisher.
With regards to part e, if I own stocks in News Corp., Hachette, Riverdeep or Viacom and my books are published by HarperCollins, Grand Central, Little Brown, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, Scribner or Simon & Schuster, my book wouldn’t be eligible for consideration? This scenario was brought up before, but I don’t think there’s a clear answer on this issue even with the revised rule changes.
Also, Bertelsmann is a privately held publisher. Occasionally their imprints publish works by those who are employees of the company (I may be wrong on this point as I don’t have complete access at the moment, but David Ebhersoff – editor at large for Random House – is a novelist with books published by RH.) So what is the status of those authors and books by MWA’s new eligibility standards?
Both scenarios were raised last November and I don’t think the new provisions provide the best answers.
Lee, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this definition allow for PublishAmerica books as long as they list their books with Ingram? And how does this definition effect publishers whose market is primarily libraries and not bookstores?
I imagine I won’t be the only one to ask a similar question, but one popped into my head immediately:
Doesn’t this also rule out people who are published by e-publishers?
(Yes, I know, this is an area that hasn’t really taken off, but the thought did pop into my head).
In your opinion, are there any circumstances where a writer should own and market his work?
Lee,
after reading the new MWA guidelines I still am slightly unclear on something. Going back to Charles Ardai book Song of Innocence would not be eligible because he owns part of Hard Case Crime. Hard case says that “it’s published as a collaboration between Winterfall LLC and Dorchester Publishing.”
Now I can understand where rules A and C would apply for Charles Ardai.
What if I were to submit to Hard Case Crime? Would my book be eligible for an Edgar nomination? I wouldn’t have any financial stake in it, nor would I have any familial relationship with anyone there.
According to the MWA by-laws, the MWA Board is comprised of 24 members, who are listed under “officers.” This then, is the NY group leading the charge against so-called “self-published” authors.
How many of these 24 people are actually authors who qualify for full membership under the MWA rules?
How many of these 24 people have have had book sales of more than 5,000 copies in the last 3 years?
How many have had a positive book review from Library Journal, Booklist, Kirkus, Publishers Weekley or ForeWord Magazine within the last 3 years?
Shouldn’t “e)” read:
“e) Books written by Charles Ardai that are published by Hard Case Crime”?
Because I’m sure no one at MWA would have come up with “e)” if not for the “Ardai Issue.” And it’s doubtful many (if any) books will fall into this grey zone again (other than Charles’ and Max’s books of course). Sounds like a custom designed solution to an awkward problem to me (after the fact at that). And it’s pretty funny seeing it in print there, buried in the middle, minding its own business like no one will notice it. It’s just smoking a cigarette, looking at the sky, and whistling a tune. Move on everyone. Nothing to see there. Very slick.
Congrats to the MWA legal eagles! They’ve solved another hard case!
TL
TL,
This clarification was not a result only of the Ardai matter. There are a number of book packagers out there that this rule would apply to. For example, there is Tekno, which regularly packages mysteries and is run by Martin Greenberg. He employs several people who are also novelists themselves. Any books that are packaged by Tekno and also written by Tekno employees would be ineligible for Edgar consideration.
Lee
RJ,
As long as you are not an editor or employee of Hard Case crime, or a family member of an editor or publisher at the company, your book would be eligible. In fact, a HC title was nominated for an Edgar this year.
Lee
Mark,
Yes, this rules out “e-books.”
Lee
Dave,
“Lee, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this definition allow for PublishAmerica books as long as they list their books with Ingram? And how does this definition effect publishers whose market is primarily libraries and not bookstores?”
PublishAmerica doesn’t qualify under other existing rules (like # of books published in initial print run, dollar amount of advance, etc.). In the case of publishers like Five Star Mysteries, which primarily serves libraries, their print run and advances qualify them as approved publishers…and their books are available in bookstores.
Lee
Some people in the industry are prejudiced against self-published authors. Some are not. Here’s an example.
While the MWA board was gathered together over the weekend to even further refine their definition of “self published” as part of their never-ending quest to articulate their prejudice against that group and ensure that they do not become affiliated with such despicable lowlifes, the General Manager of one of the nation’s largest and most respected book review organizations was personally sitting down and reading the book of (gasp!) a self-published author, a book called Bangkok Laws (March 15, 2008). She then penned a very positive review that will appear in the February 15, 2008 issue of their magazine.
Sarah,
You wrote: “if I own stocks in News Corp., Hachette, Riverdeep or Viacom and my books are published by HarperCollins, Grand Central, Little Brown, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, Scribner or Simon & Schuster, my book wouldn’t be eligible for consideration?”
No, your book would be eligible. Owning stock in a publisher would not make your book ineligible. However, if you owned a major interest in the company and sat on their board, well, that would be a different story.
You wrote: “Also, Bertelsmann is a privately held publisher. Occasionally their imprints publish works by those who are employees of the company (I may be wrong on this point as I don’t have complete access at the moment, but David Ebhersoff – editor at large for Random House – is a novelist with books published by RH.) So what is the status of those authors and books by MWA’s new eligibility standards?”
The same as under the previously-worded eligibility standards…if Ebhersoff is an editor with Random House, and they also published his book, then the book would be ineligible.
Lee
Jim,
In answer to your questions:
How many of these 24 people are actually authors who qualify for full membership under the MWA rules?
All of them. Obviously.
How many of these 24 people have have had book sales of more than 5,000 copies in the last 3 years?
The number of books sold hasn’t been, and never will be, a criteria for MWA membership. That said, the board members include Harry Hunsicker, Charlaine Harris, Jeremiah Healy, Barbara Parker, Cara Black, Leslie Klinger, Louise Ure, and Linda Fairstein, who I am sure have sold far beyond 5000 copies of their work.
How many have had a positive book review from Library Journal, Booklist, Kirkus, Publishers Weekley or ForeWord Magazine within the last 3 years?
Again, positive reviews are not, and never will be, a criteria for membership in the MWA. That said, I would bet that all of them have had positive reviews in LJ, Booklist, Kirkus and PW. I am not familiar with ForeWord magazine.
What you still don’t get, Jim, is that the MWA is a professional organization, membership is not based on popularity or good reviews.
Lee
Oh, one other comment, Jim…the board is NOT a “NY group.” It is made up of people from all over the country. For example, I live in LA, our executive VP lives in Texas, and the chair of the membership committee resides in Florida.
I was really disappointed to see that Linda Fairstein was on the MWA board and is actually participating in this “no self-publishers need apply” mindset. It is very discouraging when high-profile authors participate in the development of a caste system and/or otherwise denegrate self-published authors.
So MWA has chosen to continue to equate Charles Ardai’s great Hard Case books with PublishAmerica dreck, even though there is a clearly definable, easy to draw, bright-line difference between the two and no good reason I can see to equate the two.
Sigh.
I know I’m coming to the conversation late, but what exactly is the problem you’re trying to solve here? I’m guessing it’s mainly to try to discourage authors from vanity presses like iUniverse and PublishAmerica from trying to get considered for major awards. But can’t you achieve a similar goal by limiting awards to a “professional publication” based on print runs, availability in brick-and-mortar bookstores, etc.? Or perhaps limit the potential award nominees to writers who have qualified for MWA membership? I would think the number of books like the Songs of Innocence and Tekno examples you mention would be rare enough that they would not create a huge additional amount of work for the Edgar committee. If the argument is that a self-published work is not subject to the same quality control in editing as other books, can’t you just trust the committee not to nominate an inferior work based on its merits?
JD,
Your comment is both inaccurate and exaggerated. Nobody is equating Hard Case Crime with PublishAmerica. In fact, an HC title has been nominated for an Edgar this year.
All HC titles are eligible for Edgar consideration, or towards membership in the MWA, except those that are written by employees/owners of the company and their family members.
Lee
From what I can tell, the problem that the MWA is trying to solve has to do with a flood of self-published books being sent in for consideration.
Lee,
I don’t mean to repeat myself, but…
In your opinion, are there any circumstances where a writer should own and market his work?
Bill
JMH wrote:
the General Manager of one of the nation’s largest and most respected book review organizations was personally sitting down and reading the book of (gasp!) a self-published author
What’s a book review organization?
“I know I’m coming to the conversation late, but what exactly is the problem you’re trying to solve here?”
That’s a good question, AT. From what I can gather, they’re trying to keep “real” authors from having to rub elbows with “wannabes” or lesser-type authors.
So, MWA has come up with a grand plan. To determine if the author is any good, they don’t look at the book itself, or sales, or book reviews, or availability in book stores, or revenue generated, or anything else that might reflect on the quality of the work itself.
What MWA looks at, and the ONLY thing it looks at, is who the publisher is. The underlying thinking appears to be that self-published authors automatically suck (and get excluded) and traditionally published authors don’t. So that is the line they have drawn in the sand to separate the wheat from the non-wheat.
Not only sad, but very disrespectful and prejudicial.
“What’s a book review organization?”
A book review organization is an organization that reviews books. Examples that produce hard copy magazines include Library Journal, Booklist, Publishers Weekley, etc. Examples that produce only ezine reviews include New Mystery Reader, Midwest Book Review, etc.
If you’re interested in knowing exactly which organization I was referring to, you can see the review, and many others, at http://www.jimhansenbooks.blogspot.com
JMH:
You think an organization that bases its membership criteria on how many book an author sells and whether they get good reviews or not would be less elitist than the MWA??? What are you smokin’???
TAD
Jim,
Congratulations on the rave Booklist review!
Lee
“Congratulations on the rave Booklist review!”
Lee:
David M. said something nice to me the other day. And now you. What is this, some kind of conspiracy to throw me off balance? You guys are starting to be no fun to fight with.
“You think an organization that bases its membership criteria on how many book an author sells and whether they get good reviews or not would be less elitist than the MWA??? What are you smokin’???”
TAD: Libraries buy books. So do bookstores. Do you think that either of these keeps a master list of who the publishers are and gives each book a Yes of No based on that list? Do you think that any reader checks out a book from a library, or buys a book at a bookstore, based on who the publisher is?
What libraries and bookstores do is ask a few basic questions such as, Will readers pick this book up and be interested in it, based on the cover, content and genre? Is it available? At what price? Is it returnable if it doesn’t sell? Is it any good? What are the book reviewers saying about it? How will the author market the book? Is the author well respected? What are his/her prior sales figures?
It would seem to me that if an author produces a product that is acceptable to and purchased by libraries and bookstores, that author should be acknowledged as an author by his/her peers.
In any event, outside MWA and a few others, no one really cares who the publisher is. What they care about is whether the book is any good. There are many criteria that can be examined to answer that question.
JMH sure loves being a victim, doesn’t he?
Thanks for the response, Lee. Interesting that Tekno books figured into this, so let me pose another scenario. As I understand it, Tekno was involved in brokering the deal for MWA’s newest anthologies (including BLUE RELIGION, guest-edited by Michael Connelly) with Little, Brown. Let’s say that a Tekno author, someone in the company’s employ, happened to have written a story that was accepted for the anthology’s publication, since there are a limited number of slots open to MWA members not already solicited for the anthology. Would that story be ineligible? Should such stories not be considered for publication at all because of the author’s relationship with the packager?
“Nobody is equating Hard Case Crime with PublishAmerica. In fact, an HC title has been nominated for an Edgar this year.”
Lee, I really wish that, before disagreeing with what I’ve written, you would actually READ what I’ve written. Let’s look again.
“MWA has chosen to continue to equate *****Charles Ardai’s****** great Hard Case books with PublishAmerica dreck,”
However, it’s clear nobody is actually listening here. MWA is clearly invested in this mistake.
So I’ll just shut the fuck up and quit banging my head against this wall.
Sarah wrote: “As I understand it, Tekno was involved in brokering the deal for MWA’s newest anthologies (including BLUE RELIGION, guest-edited by Michael Connelly) with Little, Brown. Let’s say that a Tekno author, someone in the company’s employ, happened to have written a story that was accepted for the anthology’s publication, since there are a limited number of slots open to MWA members not already solicited for the anthology. Would that story be ineligible?”
Yes, the story would be ineligible for Edgar consideration.
Sarah wrotes: “Should such stories not be considered for publication at all because of the author’s relationship with the packager?”
That’s up to the guest editor who, as I understand it, is given a free hand to commission stories from whomever he pleases. (The non-commissioned stories were blind submissions… we didn’t know who had written them. Each story was assigned a number and judge purely on content).
We aren’t saying publishers can’t publish books by their employees, or that anthologies can’t publish stories by relatives of the editor…all we are saying is that they won’t be eligible for Edgar consideration.
Should that stop those books or short stories from being published? Of course not.
Is the possibility of Edgar award consideration the only reason people write crime stories and novels…or that a guest editor would commission one?
I wrote the well-reviewed short story “Jack Webb’s Star” for Robert Randisi’s HOLLYWOOD & CRIME anthology (which also features Michael Connelly) knowing that it wouldn’t be eligible for Edgar consideration because I was chairing the awards this year.
Did that stop me from writing it? Of course not.
By the way, I chaired the judging panel for the stories included in the BLUE RELIGION anthology and, in doing so, had the opportunity to work closely with Ed Hoch…he will be greatly missed.
Lee
Jim wrote: “It is very discouraging when high-profile authors participate in the development of a caste system”
You don’t think that determining membership based on sales figures and positive reviews wouldn’t create a “caste system?” Only the richest and most praised authors need apply…
I would argue that the standards you suggest for membership would be perceived as far more elitist and snobby than the MWA’s current, objective criteria that applies fairly to all, regardless of sales or reviews.
Lee
“You don’t think that determining membership based on sales figures and positive reviews wouldn’t create a “caste system?” Only the richest and most praised authors need apply…
I would argue that the standards you suggest for membership would be perceived as far more elitist and snobby than the MWA’s current, objective criteria that applies fairly to all, regardless of sales or reviews.”
Lee, you misinterpret the gist of my comments. I’m not arging for ANY type of a caste system. My only point is that MWA has in fact developed a caste system (based on who the publisher is) which I find offensive, becuase the implication is that self-pusblished authors are automatically not equals, no matter what other criteria are looked at.
Also, when you look at the Edgars, once the authors and books qualify for consideration, the publisher aspect vanishes. What criteria are used AT THAT POINT? Why can’t those criteria be used UP FRONT, without having a knock-out “publisher” punch to some who, if allowed to be considered, might well blow the competition away.
Lee,
I’m wondering if there is an interesting paradox at work in this issue. Point (a) says that these books are excluded:
“Those works for which the author has paid all or part of the cost of publication, marketing, distribution of the work, or any other fees pursuant to an agreement between the author and publisher, cooperative publisher or book packager.”
But aren’t all books “self-published”? That is, the publisher is not paying an author, he is just collecting the money from the buyers, the readers. There is an agreement between the publisher and the writer that the writer will allow, say, 90% of the money the writer earns to go for the publishing and the writer will only pocket, say, 10%. And the writer is “paying the publisher” not only all of the publishing costs but also more once the publishing cost have been re-couped. If the writer wants to pay these publishing fees upfront, from his own pocket, rather than later after the money has been collected, so what? Either way, the writer is paying the costs, not the publisher.
Further more (I think I’m on a roll here), if Stephen King wants to sell and distribute a book from his website, why can’t he be eligible for an award? He might sell more copies than a NY publishing house, and save the 90% of the revenue that he is giving to the publisher, which pays the costs!
However, if the self-publishing criteria are meant to limit the number of books in the contest, than the contest itself needs to be changed, I would argue. There needs to be a series of contests to winnow down the number of books eligible for the ultimate prize, rather than trying to exclude books based on how they are published. If the book is the best novel of the year, who cares if it sells only one copy to the writer’s mother?? It’s the quality of the book that counts, not the name of the publisher or the technology used to produce the book.
All that said, this sure is one contentious issue. The MWA needs to chose which book is good, not which publishing technology is good. In the future sometime, I would argue, “books” will be increasingly electronic in nature. The publisher is a middle man who will gradually be eliminated to lower the costs of producing the product, the book. So maybe the MWA is bucking a trend?? Anywho, at least we all are clarifying the issue as we try to work out what’s fair and not fair in an era of newly emerging, and different, technologies.
By industry standards they aren’t Jim. If yours are the exception try to get an agent and a real contract for the series. of course technically the’re already published so.
Jim,
The same standards are used for membership and the Edgars. To be eligible for an Edgar, the book must also make the author eligible for membership. In other words, all Edgar submissions must come from publishers on the MWA’s Approved Publishers list, the same ones used to determine an author’s eligibility for membership. So the standards are the same at the MWA across the board…
Lee
Jim wrote:
“My only point is that MWA has in fact developed a caste system (based on who the publisher is) which I find offensive, becuase the implication is that self-pusblished authors are automatically not equals, no matter what other criteria are looked at.”
You’re right, though I wouldn’t call the MWA’s membership criteria and Edgar eligibility rules a “caste system.”
But you’re absolutely correct — the MWA does treat published authors and self-published authors differently. There’s no question about that. The MWA sees a significant difference between professional authors who are paid for their work and people who pay to be published. One takes talent, skill and professionalism, the other takes a credit card.
Lee
Jim wrote: “Also, when you look at the Edgars, once the authors and books qualify for consideration, the publisher aspect vanishes. What criteria are used AT THAT POINT?”
Quality of the book. Out of hundreds of submissions, five are determined to be “the best” and one is honored for excellence with an Edgar.
But the MWA is not going to base membership on a reading of someone’s book. We are a professional organization, so our criteria must be objective and fair.
That’s why membership is not based on someone’s judgment on the quality, or lack thereof, of a writer’s work but on whether or not the author was paid an advance and royalties by a company that meets industry standards of professionalism, that published a significant number of copies of the book, and widely distributed them to brick-and-mortar bookstores nationwide. And that this publication was not paid for by the author or was the result of a conflict of interest between the author and publisher.
The same is true of the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences, the Writers Guild of America, The Producers Guild of America, The Authors Guild, The Science Fiction Writers of America and hundreds of other professional writers organizations I can name: membership isn’t determined by how good someone thinks your writing but whether or not you meet objective criteria. So why do you find this so hard to accept from the MWA?
Lee
“By industry standards they aren’t Jim. If yours are the exception try to get an agent and a real contract for the series.”
Mark, you seem to assume that anyone who self-publishes has been rejected by “real” publishers. My decision to set up my own publishing company was a choice, not a forced decision, from the start. Night Laws, the first book to kick off the Bryson Coventry series, was NEVER offered to a single agent or a publisher. Not a single query letter went out.
Since the series has taken off, I have had agents CONTACT ME. Of course, I’m flattered, but tell them I’m really not interested. Why? Because I’m having a ball just the way things are. Also, once the series really takes off, the books will be released as Mass Market paperbacks. By the time this is all said and done, most people will be astounded at what happened.
So don’t treat everyone as a NY reject and make assumptions that aren’t true.
“But you’re absolutely correct — the MWA does treat published authors and self-published authors differently. There’s no question about that. The MWA sees a significant difference between professional authors who are paid for their work and people who pay to be published. One takes talent, skill and professionalism, the other takes a credit card.”
If you want to compare “talent, skill and professionalism” tit for tat, I’m ready any time. In fact, why don’t you post your last three book reviews from the big magazines right here, in full, and I’ll do the same.
I don’t think anyone can doubt Lee’s skill and professionalism. You may not like what he has to write — that’s fair enough. But he’s worked a long time in this industry, and earned the respect of his peers, so obviously he’s got something.
I’ve read several things of his and almost always been pleased with them. I reviewed one of the DM books in the Chicago Sun-Times — the only tie-in novel I’ve ever reviewed — because I thought it was worthy of being singled out. (I read a second novel in the series which I liked as well.)
I also praised his book THE MAN WITH THE IRON-ON BADGE on my website, because, again, I thought it was an interesting and entertaining novel that people would enjoy. (I’ve also appreciated some of Lee’s short fiction, and recently bought HOLLYWOOD AND CRIME, in part so I could read his story in it.)
One of the things I like best about Lee’s writing is that he often uses comedic elements in his crime stories that will make the reader laugh, but don’t fall into parody or silliness. His stories are still serious, even if they make you smile. That’s a difficult thing to do, and something that few writers in the genre can manage.
I wish Lee had the opportunity to write more of his own stuff (and fewer tie-ins) because I think he’s a refreshing voice in crime fiction. He ain’t no Pelecanos, but he can tell a good story.
Thanks, David, for your very kind words. But as nice as they are, and as truly flattered as I am by them, they don’t matter as far as establishing my “professional” status with writer’s organizations. What DOES matter is whether I meet each organizations’ objective criteria…whether I was paid and published by an MWA-approved publisher… whether I was paid the established minimum by a reputable, WGA-signatory production company for a screenplay…whether I have produced a certain number of shows that meet Producers Guild criteria and I can be recommended by three other members, etc. etc.
Jim, I could easily take you up on your ridiculous and pointless challenge and post three terrific reviews (which I do regularly on my site anyway)…but it’s meaningless in this context. You still don’t get the point. Reviews are irrelevant, whether they are good or bad, from PW or Harriet Klausner, to the MWA in determining the professional status of a writer. The same is true with the WGA, the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences, the Producers Guild…I could go on and on.
EVERY industry has their professional organizations, and each organizations has specific, objective criteria for membership that aren’t based on simple popularity or good reviews.
You’re clearly a very intelligent man — I just don’t get why this very common practice is so difficult for you to grasp.
Could I join the ABA without a law degree? Or having passed the bar? What if I have great reviews for representing myself in court? Or lots of lawyers are fond of me? Or if I’ve won winning millions of dollars in lawsuits without the benefit of hiring a lawyer? it seems to me like the ABA has created a caste system….those who have “law degrees” and those who don’t…those who have passed the bar and those who haven’t. It’s unfair…and you should rail against it.
Lee
Ummmmm…
If the Award is called “THE BEST MYSTERY NOVEL OF THE YEAR” then all mystery novels should be included, published or not.
If the Award is called “THE MWA BEST MYSTERY NOVEL OF THE YEAR’ then I agree that the MWA criteria is valid any way the MWA decides.
But it is misleading (and may be illegal) to call the award “THE BEST MYSTERY NOVEL OF THE YEAR AWARD” while excluding mystery novels from consideration. I’ve seen the list of submissions at the MWA website and there’s a plethora to chose from. It would seem that a new selection and winnowing process may be needed to allow everybody to enter while making the judging process easier.
Anyway, I sure do admire JMH. He’s taken advantage of the new opportunities that the new emerging media technology are opening up. At one time, in Hollywood, only the studios could produce a movie and get it out there. Burt Lancaster, a big movie star, produced his own movie and I believe he made something like a million dollars from it. Which had never been done before. Afterwards, many stars started up their production companies. Why not? It improved the quality of the movies. JMH is starting up his own publishing operation. I’m sure it will encourage him to write the very best he can.
Lee, this was your initial stance:
“The MWA sees a significant difference between professional authors who are paid for their work and people who pay to be published. One takes talent, skill and professionalism, the other takes a credit card.”
First of all, I doubt that you speak for the “MWA.” I know members, and many other persons in the writing community, who think your whole “self-published authors automatically suck” mindset is garble.
That aside,your position is that MWA members have “talent, skill and professionalism” while those who chose to self-publish do not. All they have is a credit card.
Please identify THE CRITERIA you are using (other than publisher)to define an author who has “talent, skill and professionalism.”
Once you do that, then we’ll be in a position to compare some examples. Of course, if you simply sidestep the issue which is what I expect will happen, then we won’t.
JMH–
You’ve stated before that you have no desire to join MWA. So why do you insist on jumping into this argument each time it comes up?
Fuck MWA. Why do you care what they do?
Let em go be elitist snobs. Doesn’t hurt you any.
I agree with Dan. “all mystery novels should be included, published or not.” Publication should not be a requirement to win the Edgar award. That is just discriminatory (and possibly racist) bullshit.
I must have something on my harddrive that deserves an edgar. Probably a pulitzer, too. Count me in!
If only someone had a plan for a series of contests, starting locally and working up to a national level.
Dan,
That’s just ridiculous. The Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences awards Oscars for Best Feature Film….but not all movies that are made anywhere on earth are eligible for consideration. Not “everybody” is allowed to enter. So, do you have a problem with them, too?
Lee
“I know members, and many other persons in the writing community, who think your whole “self-published authors automatically suck” mindset is garble.”
Have they figured out yet that garble is a verb?
Lee,
No, I don’t have a problem with the Academy any more. No one does. But the Academy works differently than the MWA.
You probably don’t remember this but in the sixties the Oscars were a joke. (So too were the grammies, but an even bigger joke.) Why? Because some very good movies were excluded because the Academy members were too “old school” and because the Academy excluded movies from other countries, some of which the Public judged to be much better than the winners. So what happened? The Academy changed. Now, if there’s a really good movie from, let’s say China, it has a chance to win the Best Picture Oscar. And as a result, the Public now has much more faith in the awards than they had in the sixties — meaning, that the Best Picture winner very probably IS the Best Picture made in the year, period.
But look also at what has happened to the judging process. There are roughly about 200 to 250 “Best of the Year” lists for movies. There are roughly, say, 20 film festivals that give out prestigious awards. Hundreds and hundreds of movies are screened by these festivals to weed out the not so good and to include those with real merit. If a movie wins a Golden Globe, say, that’s important to the Public. There is confidence, I would say, that if a person makes a good movie, it will have it’s chance at these events and have a chance to get on the “Best of” lists.
What does the MWA do? It excludes without screening. That’s not fair. The MWA only wants to review a small number of books, a manageable number, so this is one very big reason for excluding books – but one of those books may be BEST, and much better than the winner. So what is the Edgar Award really worth? My hope would be for a much, much more lengthy judging process like what occurs with movies. The MWA judges are the ones who should know a really good novel from a great novel. They should only be considering five novels for BEST NOVEL just as the Academy does. And in this way, the Edgar will come to have a much enhanced value in the Mind of the Public. Give everybody a chance to win, no matter how small. And if they self-publish, and then win, that’s when the author will find an agent, and editor and a publisher in New York. And the Public will love the Edgar as much as it thrills over Oscar Night.
Anyway, you have a lot of talent Lee. Your Diagnosis Murder scripts are, to me, really entertaining. And I enjoyed “Mr. Monk and the Two Assistants.” Read it twice. Will read it again. Now, I’m reading “The Man with the Iron-On Badge.” As a person with a lot of talent, you could open the Edgar doors for others. Oh, and my ideas are not “ridiculous” – they are “thoughtful.”
Dan
Bill,
Sorry it took me so long to get to your question. I somehow missed it before.
I would never recommend that a fiction writer self-publish…and certainly not through POD. It’s a total waste of money with virtually no chance of even modest success. If you are going to do it, do it Jim Hansens’s way. He is truly self-published as opposed to people who go the POD route, who have simply paid someone format their manuscript so it can be printed in trade paperback form. But true self-publishing requires a huge investment in time and money and entails enormous risk.
That said, I think non-fiction writers, particularly those who do a lot of classes, seminars and public speaking, can benefit from self-publishing their books…even going the POD route. Yes, POD. But it means hand-selling your books in your classes, seminars, and speaking engagements.
My book SUCCESSFUL TELEVISION WRITING was published years ago by Wiley & Sons, is still in print today, and is often sold at events where I am speaking. But if it ever goes out of print, I will definitely consider reissuing it (at no charge to myself) through the Authors Guild’s Back-In-Print program, which is run through iUniverse.
I make hundreds of dollars (I repeat, 100s not 1000s) each year from sales of the reissued, POD editions of UNSOLD TELEVISION PILOTS through the Authors Guild program. But it was a no-brainer for me. There was no risk or downside. I’d already made more than $100,000 off the books (between royalties, sub-rights sales and network TV options/sales/producing fees). The books had already been professionally edited and published. And it cost me nothing to make them available through POD. If I hadn’t reissued them myself, they would just be gathering dust in my garage rather than earning me royalties (such as they are).
Lee
Dan,
I don’t agree with your take on how the Oscars were perceived in the past or your view that they are opening to everything today. There are numerous restrictions on what can and can’t be submitted and considered for an Oscar. Not every movie released in the U.S. …or in China…can be considered for Best Picture. There’s detailed criteria regarding when and where a movie has been screened, in how many theatres, etc. The same is true for the Emmy Award for Best TV Series, etc. Not every song burned on to a CD is eligible for a Grammy.
It’s not my decision, but I can safely say that the MWA will never open the Edgars up to any mystery novel published by anyone anywhere by any means. There will always be submission criteria that entries must meet in order to be eligible. And the MWA has evolved with the times…which is why they’ve had to refine their definition of a “published author” in an age when anyone with a credit card and access to POD service is calling themselves one.
I suggest that someone form an organization to honor the excellence in self-published or POD fiction to fill for affirmation and recognition among that niche audience rather than expecting it from professional organizations like the MWA.
We aren’t looking to “enhance” the reputation of the Edgars. We are looking to maintain it. The Edgars are already considered the Oscars of mystery writing…by excluding books from the likes of iUniverse, PublishAmerica, Hilliard & Harris, Authorhouse, etc. for consideration we are maintaining that stature. (One only has to look what has happened to the Spur Awards).
P.S. – Thanks for the kind words about my books! I am glad you are enjoying them.
Lee
You can download the Academy’s rules for submitting films for Oscar consideration here:
http://www.oscars.org/80academyawards/rules/index.html
Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of films are excluded by these rules…this “caste” system (as Jim would say) created by the Academy.
For instance, the Best Foreign Film Oscar isn’t open to every movie released anywhere in the world. Instead, each country submits ONE movie picked by one organization, jury or committee of movie makers….and each of those groups has their own criteria for submission. Think of all the films that are excluded! It’s a travesty.
“So don’t treat everyone as a NY reject and make assumptions that aren’t true.”
Well I think your sales records are more than enough evidence.
” too-little-known hard-boiled series that deserves attention.” –Booklist ”
No doubt and unlikely to change. Well you’ve pumped out a lot of them in two years I’ll give you that. frankly I’m suspicious of that kind of production in such a short period of time. There isn’t enough time for them to be fully baked. This is the trouble with self-publishing. Only one set of uncritical eyes.
Mark,
You should be suspicious of me, too. I write three or four books a year.
Lee
If there’s anyone who ISN’T suspicious of Lee Goldberg, they clearly haven’t been paying attention. Just ask his brother.
Lee,
The Oscars have grown in stature over the years but in the sixties everybody was criticizing the award: “How can the Best Picture not have the Best Actor and Best Director?” was one frequent put-down. But over the years, the Academy has, I would argue, grown up and matured and changed. At one time, for instance, animated movies weren’t considered. Now, they are. Times change and opinions of what is good and not good also change. And with the growth of film festivals all around the world, it is almost a certainty that a very good movie will get noticed. And why not? Many more movies are having a chance to be seen.
I see a way for the Edgars to improve and to acquire a greater stature. Do you follow the golf world at all, Lee? They have tournaments where there are “knock-outs.” 128 players begin and after the first round, half are out, half go on. Then there is 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2 and 1. Let’s say there are 2,000 submissions for an Edgar. All that’s needed to eliminate a submission is for a judge to have read two novels. One will be better and goes on while the other is out of contention. In the first round alone, 1000 novels are eliminated. Then 1,000 remain. Then 500. Then 250. Then 125. And so on. You, Lee, probably read one mystery a month or more, right? There can be a list of hundreds of reviewers who could do the judging and they’d be rewarded with a lot to say about why they made their choices. This type of judging gets more people involved and it excludes very few.
I’m not knocking the Edgar Award, but it isn’t in the same class, I would say, as the Oscar in terms of Global Attention. Therefore, I would like to see it stepping up in stature rather than staying the same. But of course the MWA Directors have the last word and I will abide by it. I’m just contributing ideas.
Dan
“I’m not knocking the Edgar Award, but it isn’t in the same class, I would say, as the Oscar in terms of Global Attention.”
That’s because mystery novels don’t receive the same “Global Attention” as films. (Duh.) It has nothing to do with the stature of the Edgars on their own. It has to do with the fact that the general public largely ignores books.
“Well you’ve pumped out a lot of them in two years I’ll give you that. frankly I’m suspicious of that kind of production in such a short period of time. There isn’t enough time for them to be fully baked. This is the trouble with self-publishing. Only one set of uncritical eyes.”
Mark, thanks for sharing all your positive energy with us. Your comments, as always, and insightful, inspiring and rooted in experience. I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say we’re glad that you’re contributing to the discussion and setting us straight when we go wrong.
As for my books not being “fully baked,” I must admit that although they’ve been reviewed by book reviewers probably in excess of a hundred times, that’s not a term that I recalled being mention. In fact, Curled Up just released a brand new review of Night Laws yesterday, reprinted at http://www.jimhansenbooks.blogspot.com. I reread the review to see if the phrase was in there, but didn’t see it.
Now to the point. Some people write quickly. I write approximately 10 pages a day, which means 40 working days to finish a book. Add a week on either side for planning and cleanup, which means I write my books in about 2 months.
Right now, I am writing Bryson Coventry thrillers faster than they can be released. That is why I will start a 2nd series, set in Paris, featuring a beautiful, free-sprited Paris detective named Ja’Venn Le Rue. Her books will start coming out next year. They will have the same hold-on-tight atmosphere as the Laws books.
I’ll be waiting eagerly to see if you approve of them or not.
David,
Yes, films are hotter than mystery books. But even among mystery novel fans, the Edgar is not on a par, I would guess, with the Oscar. The stature of the award, amongst those to whom it matters, could be grown and increased by having changes in the judging process — more contests leading up to the final award, for one.
Look, the SuperBowl wasn’t always such a big ticket. But it keeps increasing in stature from year to year. But to do so the schedule had to change. They have all the best teams of one season play each other in the next season, and all the lesser teams play each other so there’s parity and to arouse greater interest. That’s the point, right?
In the golf world, they make changes year to year, striving to get better results. Who knows how big the Masters can get. But it gets bigger, I believe, because it finds ways to reach more and more people. Having a superstar like Tiger obviously doesn’t hurt. Is the MWA grooming future superstar writers in order to capture more attention.
Heck, chess was once a non-entity in the world until Bobby Fischer, rest his soul. If chess can make it as a World Attention Grabber, then mystery novels most certainly can, in my book.
Dan
Dan, you keep presenting analogies that have little or anything to add to the discussion. Can the Pawtucket Poltroons make it to the Super Bowl? No. Can the golf pro at the Topeka Country Club play in The Masters? No. Can a 15-minute student film made in France compete for the Oscars? No. Can a bar band’s self-produced CD contend for the Grammys? No.
You have to be a member of a relevant professional organization or league, or satisfy other fixed, limiting criteria in order to participate in these competitions. The same is true for the Edgars. The same is true for every award.
I see no realistic way that the stature of the Edgar awards would be increased by expanding the eligible pool of novels or nature of judging. For one thing, this presupposes that mystery fans are aware of the Edgar’s current judging process. I can assure you they are not. Most people don’t even know that the Edgars are chosen by a group of 5 people (8 in the case of best novel). I know I was shocked when I first learned this several years back.
However, since you have presented your plan for the local-to-national awards competition numerous times now, I think perhaps you should run with it. Clearly, MWA isn’t interested in your idea. But nothing precludes you from utilizing it in the determination of your own awards. If you really think this is the key to awards prominence, you should try it out yourself. Who knows, perhaps one day The Danny will outstrip the Edgar.
“I’ll be waiting eagerly to see if you approve of them or not”
Well I may take a gander, but it depends on the reviewer. Midwest Book Review? That’s an astounding pace so I would be interested in who your beta readers are and anyone other than self-editing, which is rife with failure. There is no way this level can be edited properly. “The first draft of anything is shit.” Hemingway
Mark wrote: “That’s an astounding pace so I would be interested in who your beta readers are and anyone other than self-editing, which is rife with failure. There is no way this level can be edited properly.”
Sorry, Mark, but I have to disagree with you. You’re making a broad generalization with no basis in fact. I keep up that pace, and so do many other writers I know. That doesn’t mean the work is poorly edited or leads to failure. The sales figures on my MONK books are getting better and better with each book…which is why they jumped from paperback originals to hardcover with book #4, which came out last summer. I am currently writing book #7…which comes out next fall. And who cares about “beta readers?” I don’t show my books to anyone but Andy Breckman (the creator of MONK ) and my editor.
“There is no way this level can be edited properly.”
First, writing 10 pages a day is a medium pace. Many writers such as Stephen King are much more prolific. The secret is to put it down right the first time. I quite frankly do very little editing after the first draft of the MS is complete. That’s one of the reasons my books maintain their raw, spur of the moment energy.
Copyediting and proofreading are different matters. That is the polishing aspect of writing. In my case, I am fortunate to have 5 incredibly talented people who voluntarily, without pay, read each one of my MSs. Because of their efforts, the final versions of my books are now almost flawless.
Trust me, if there are editing flaws in a book, the books reviewers will point them out.
So will readers. In one of my books, there was a sign on an elevator that said “BROKE.”
A reader emailed me and said the elevator was BROKEN, not BROKE. I wrote back and said the sign was placed there by the maintenance man, so cut him some slack; it’s not like he’s a college professor on the side.
Lee,
I know you have a scorching pace, but a much better known and vetted track record too. And one of these: I don’t show my books to anyone but Andy Breckman (the creator of MONK ) and my editor.” That’s two.
This is what I’m claiming Jimbo doesn’t have. I’ve spent two years on a fairly complex novel, the last six months with an editor. It’s nearing completion. Of course a lot of this was rewriting and adding new material by request. So in this context “beta” readers is a misnomer. An editor, i.e. another set of eyes is my main point. So I think we can agree on that? Who is Jim’s editor?
“The secret is to put it down right the first time.”
This almost never happens. See Hemingway’s views on this one. King sets his stuff aside for six months before returning with fresh eyes. I don’t buy your one take wonder on its face. Polishers and copyediters are what many vanity press writers claim to have. Five would indicate a beta reader crew though.
David,
Yes, I agree. With any competition there are rules restricting the enteries. I happen to believe that self-publishing should not be one of those restrictions. Lee believes that all self-publishing is self-delusion on the part of the writer, but I think it’s as a result of new media technology, and if a writer goes in knowing he’ll only sell a hundred books that can be a success and the start of a career.
But what I’m striving to express, I think, is a dissatisfaction with the judging process of the Edgars. But I’m only playing with ideas and scenarios. It’s not life and death to me. The MWA can do as they wish. But what excites me in sports is the build up to the finale. This is an idea that may have merit when applied to the Edgar Awards. Or not. The MWA Directors have the last word, and I’m okay with it.
As far as setting up an alternative award goes, that’s beyond my resources at the moment. But I think you have made the case for me, and for all non-established writers when you express shock and dismay over the current judging process. I like the MWA and I love mystery novels and all mystery writers. They deserve, in my mind, to have a really exciting judging process that builds interest all through the year for their very hard work and good work.
Anyway, I rest my case, and I’ll take your ideas into account as I continue to wrestle with this thorny, complicated issue of trying to find fairness and justice in an era of newly emerging technolgy. Thanks for your input.
Dan
Dan, I never expressed dismay at the judging process. I was surprised when I first learned that the books were selected by a committee, rather than the full membership. But in retrospect, I was a little naive. I can’t imagine how it would realistically work otherwise.
Having now participated as a judge twice for ITW — which utilizes essentially the same process — I think it works about as well as any alternative would.
As for setting up your own awards… it hardly requires any resources at all. (We started our own awards at Mystery Ink — the Gumshoe Awards — and have gotten a fair amount of attention. All it required was some time and passion on our part.) If it’s something you’re interested in, you should go for it.
In particular, you might consider starting an award for self-published novels, since you feel so enthusiastically about them. (Just so there’s no misunderstanding, I’m not saying that sarcastically. If it’s something you believe in, I think it’s worth doing.)
Good luck!