I got this email today:
Do you realize that EVERYBODY in fandom hates your fucking guts you asshole?
I think it was from my Mom, but I’m going to answer it anyway. No, I had no idea. So, for fun, I thought I’d take a look at what some people are saying. Here’s a sampling:
Thy lips rot off, Lee Goldberg! Thou jarring, fat-kidneyed scullian! You speak an infinite deal of nothing! […] Goldbergs one and all, thine sole name blisters our tongues. Thou hath more hair than wit, and more faults than hairs.
From Nobody Knows Anything Blog:
I understand the impulse to write and read fanfic—you want to live in
this wonderful world as much as you can, and twenty-four hours a year
or one book every two years or whatever just isn’t cutting it for you.
There are several novel series that I am forever hoping will just happen to have a new installment at the bookstore every time I check. But
fanfic is like a steak dinner made out of meringue—might look the real
thing, but it’s not really going to fill you up.
From Dawn Rivers Baker’s Blog:
You know, it’s all very well to nitpick about the legal shimmies and shakes of fanfic,
but the legal stuff doesn’t cover what it must be like for the author
who feels violated by other people dipping their fingers into the
author’s creation. All you really have to do to "get" the author’s perspective is to ask a victim how it feels to have just been raped.
From Nick Mamatas:
Mystery writer and TV producer Lee Goldberg picks up a stick and whacks a hornet’s nest by taking on fanfic.
I have no dog in the fight; after all, what can I say? NOBODY had
better RIP-OFF my ORiGINAL CHARACTERS like … uh … Jack Kerouac and uhm Cthulhu and William S. Burroughs and and and…
However, I do like a good brawl, especially when everyone is so
obviously speaking past one another. "It’s illegal!" "It’s a hobby!"
"It’s illegal!" "It’s a hobby!" Haven’t these people ever heard of an
illegal hobby before? They sure seem to be acting like they run their
neighborhood meth labs.
From Smart Bitches Who Love Trashy Novels:
I don’t read fanfic, I don’t write fanfic, and I’m not enough of a
fan of anything to indulge in either activity anytime soon. However,
self-righteous attitudes about how fanfic writers will NEVER BE REAL
WRITERS and ALL of fanfic is wrong and always will be wrong world
without end, amen, bother me. And frankly, so do people who malign
masturbation.
Seriously, it’s a toss-up right now which one irritates me more. If
whacking off doesn’t feel all that good to you, I think you’re probably
doing it wrong.
From Rebecca Tushnet (one of the guests on OPEN SOURCE):
One thing I wished I’d gotten to say about Lee Goldberg’s position that
fan fiction shows disrespect for creators’ intellectual property — he
compared it to another person giving "your children" "attitudes you
never intended or wanted." Which to me sounds a lot like raising a real
child — they come from us, but they aren’t us, which is alternately a
source of joy and despair. I’m going to be writing a piece for a book
on IP and gender about the "work as child" metaphor. What fascinates me
is that the metaphor has persisted and still seems persuasive to many
even as the persuasiveness of the original claim to ownership of one’s
children has faded. It takes a village to raise a child; it takes an
interpretive community to create a text.
From Anacronym’s Blog:
The fanfic discussion continues
over at Lee Goldberg’s blog. A rare occurence: I think I’ve changed my
mind on this subject. I’ll probably post more over the next day or two,
but I used to think that fanfic wasn’t so bad. Having been exposed,
now, to the mindset, I’m rethinking that position.
From PatientAlien:
I would get all pissed off about Lee Goldberg’s amazing decent
into further assholishness, but since it’s obvious he’s been going down
that road for quite some time (*remembers the producers vs. fans
flamewar back in the day*), I can’t muster the energy to blast him for
being a whiny little bitch.
From Flat Land Big Sky Blog:
I can certainly understand if the idea of someone writing about your characters or your
world squicks you in a visceral, personal way (though as said above, if
you’re writing for publication you already run the risk of someone
else’s imagination sullying your perfect creation). I can understand if
you think that most fanfiction is a waste of time; a lot of it is. But
I don’t understand how you can think of it as, by definition, not
"real" writing. It’s pen on paper, or pixels on screen, depicting
motivation, conflict, plot and theme: that’s writing.
From Alchemy Without Moles:
I’m not getting into the whole
arguing-with-the-masses thing over at A Writer’s Life. And I’m not
doing the man the favor of a link, either. (He’s getting quite the
reputation as an "expert" on fic: I wonder if he appreciates the irony?
[Although he’s not an expert, just a man with an opinion. With even
less justification for his posturing than J*hn Ord*v*r.])[…] The subtext I read in a lot of the responses is that these professional
writers and television producers hate fic because they find it threatening.
Amateurs writing in their arena, how dare they. And, given what I’ve
seen in the Pit of Voles, and Gossamer, and Heliopolis, they’re so
offbase it’s ludicrous. 95% of fic is crap, everyone knows that.
There were a LOT more discussions about the fanfic posts here, but this one has got to be my hands-down-favorite comment because I think it really sums up the fanficcer/Talifan mindset. From Kristen, a SeaQuest fan:
I’m sure by now that those who read my writing see an over riding
moral. We are all connected and if you can’t let yourself go and
actually love what you do, quit before you screw it up. Today I use the
prime example of Lee Goldberg, who can be quoted as saying this oh so
wonderful pearl of wisdom to aspiring writers, "When the show is
cancelled (or I leave it for whatever reason), I stop thinking about
the characters and their "lives." I move on creatively and emotionally
to something else."I have one response to this. Lee,
you’re a writer with no passion. You go through the moves and write the
words, but in reality you are no better a writer than the accountant
who tries to tell the banker what the show is about. A "real" writer,
whether you make money at it or not, feels the story and feels
motivated to finish that project no matter what the cost to himself is.
The fact that you can callously ‘move on’ and not give anything you
were doing a second thought tells me that you were never really on
board in the first place. seaQuest was cancelled because of
writers and producers like you because we, the fans, could tell that
you felt nothing for your own project. If you couldn’t champion it, why
should we?The good fan fiction writers are different, and
perhaps, instead of a passionless cold fish, they should have been in
charge.
Lee,
I don’t hate you; I love you! I just love a crazy spectacle a bit more. I read your blog all the time, and especially enjoy it when you take the opportunity to spank the folks who run Publish America and similar. Keep up the great work.
Well, Lee, this confirms it. In order to prove your love for all the shows you ever worked on, even the ones that were cancelled, or starred Arsenio Hall, or both, you need to continue to write scripts for the shows. I look forward to your new scripts for:
The Best TV Shows That Never Were (2004) (TV) (writer)
“1-800-Missing” (2003) TV Series (writer) (9 episodes)
… aka Missing (UK) (USA: second season title)
“Monk” (2002) TV Series (writer) (2 episodes)
“A Nero Wolfe Mystery” (2001) TV Series (teleplay) (episode “Champagne for One: Parts I & II”) (teleplay) (episode “Murder Is Corny”) (teleplay) (episode “Poison à la carte”) (teleplay) (episode “Prisoner’s Base: Parts I & II”)
… aka Nero Wolfe (USA: promotional title)
“Martial Law” (1998/I) TV Series (writer) (3 episodes 1999-2000)
“Deadly Games” (1995) TV Series (writer) (2 episodes)
“Sliders” (1995) TV Series
“Flipper” (1995) TV Series (writer)
… aka The New Adventures of Flipper (USA)
“Stick with Me, Kid” (1995) TV Series
“The Cosby Mysteries” (1994) TV Series
“Diagnosis Murder” (1993) TV Series
“Cobra” (1993) TV Series (writer) (9 episodes)
“SeaQuest DSV” (1993) TV Series (writer)
… aka SeaQuest 2032 (USA: new title)
“Likely Suspects” (1992) TV Series
“She-Wolf of London” (1990) TV Series
… aka Love & Curses
“Baywatch” (1989) TV Series (writer) (5 episodes 1989-1990)
… aka Baywatch Hawai’i (USA: new title)
“Murphy’s Law” (1988) TV Series (staff writer)
“The Highwayman” (1988) TV Series (writer)
“Spenser: For Hire” (1985) TV Series
“Hunter” (1984) TV Series (writer) (episode “On Air”)
Actually, looking at it now, no need to do anything new for The Highwayman.
New SeaQuest? Score!
What about that series about the psychic truck that turns into Britney Spears’ ass? Or did I get that wrong?
The fact that you can callously ‘move on’ and not give anything you were doing a second thought tells me that you were never really on board in the first place.
You know Lee, I don’t remember you ever saying that you “callously” move on. Only that you move on.
A “real” writer, whether you make money at it or not, feels the story and feels motivated to finish that project no matter what the cost to himself is.
What’s interesting to me, is what Kristen describes is not passion. It’s obsession.
Let’s replace a few words:
A “real” boyfriend, whether the girl wants you or not, feels the relationship and feels motivated to finish that relationship no matter what the cost to himself is.
So yes, Lee, you move on. Sounds like the healthy thing to do — and certainly not a reflection of your passion while working on the show.
Gee, thanks for posting my credits, Tod. Now I hate me.
Flipper? The Highwayman? Sometimes I think even porn credits would be more impressive.
Then again, my buddy Terry Winter has “Okavango,” “Flipper,” “Cosby Mysteries,” “Diresta” and “Sister Sister” on his credits, and he still landed on “The Sopranos” and has deservedly won every award a TV writer can win. So there’s hope for me yet…
(By the way, Tod, where did you get those credits? There are a lot of errors and omissions)
I know somebody in fandom who doesn’t hate your f*cking guts, so the emailer is wrong. No, seriously, I do. Actually a couple of people who seriously fangirl you for your stance. Can’t tell you who they are though. They don’t want their houses firebombed.
Matter of fact, the Jammers might write something just in your honor, soon as they get time. They have real lives, but ya never know when writer’s block will hit and somebody will need a diversion. I’m already hearing threats of a Dr. Seuss of the radio show.
Please don’t steal my plot or theme
my words or verbs, my names or memes
I worked really hard, this is my book
my set, my story, my blurb, my hook.
I’m very pleased you enjoyed it so.
Tell your friends, then write your very own.
The fact that you can callously ‘move on’ and not give anything you were doing a second thought tells me that you were never really on board in the first place.
Um, no. That means you’re a professional.
What most fanfic writers don’t know (or perhaps deliberately fail to acknowledge?) is that developing an original, well-plotted, properly structured, producible story that serves the franchise–i.e. a professional quality story–is hard work. (And to do this multiple times on strict deadlines in franchises that range from SeaQuest to MISSING is simply amazing.) When given a choice between expending that effort on a project that cannot go anywhere verses on a project that can, there is only one professional answer.
That, in a nutshell, is the difference between you, Lee, and the majority of fanfic writers–you don’t develop otiose story ideas because to do so would be unprofessional; you wouldn’t publish a derivative work without first getting the copyright holder’s permission because to do so would be unprofessional; you wouldn’t write a scene in which Sharona fucks Monk up the ass with a strap-on because to do so would be unprofessional.
You conduct yourself professionally, while they, for the most part, do not.
What most fanfic writers don’t know (or perhaps deliberately fail to acknowledge?) is that developing an original, well-plotted, properly structured, producible story that serves the franchise–i.e. a professional quality story–is hard work.
I’m beginning to wonder how many of these nay-sayers have actually READ fanfic.
Not all of it is misspelled, typo-ridden, and physically impossible porn. A good portion of it is genuinely thoughtful and creative, with real effort on the author’s part behind its creation.
And it’s writing such fanfic which has really upped the appreciation of the original writers. In fact, I’ve yet to see a fanfic that didn’t acknowledge the writer’s awe and admiration for the person who created the world they’re playing in. In fact, that’s often what inspires people to write fanfic in the first place — they want to become as good as the writer they admire. It’s like riding a bike with training wheels. Your borrow someone else’s fully-developed characters, their fleshed-out world — which are, granted, usually the hardest part — and take them for a spin, see what it’s like to try to use such tools at hand.
Honestly, why is there the impression that fanfic writers are ungrateful louts who disprespect the very authors and creators they attempt to emulate?
lmao! Oh my God, you are so obsessed with us!
Hey, it seems that you ruffled a few feathers which is never a bad thing in blogland, if people are talking about you, then it means they know who you are…
I have no opinion either way on fanfic, other than to say that apparently I’m a 14 year old unfulfilled masturbator
K. Snow:
Because it really, really wouldn’t hurt — just once — to ASK PERMISSION TO DO SO.
Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp? You even admit to taking tools _created by someone else_ to produce fanfic. You think of it as practice, as “training wheels” for your early writing. To me, it merely suggests a failure of the imagination, which isn’t something I associate with talent. (Yes, this is my opinion, not a cast-iron ‘fact’. Feel free to pelt me with virtual rotten tomatoes or whatever.)
If it really _is_ a form of practice, as you claim, why post it online for all the world to see? The answer is because you want to get something in return, be it kudos, attention, ‘respect’, hits to your website, or whatever. And that means you’re using other people’s property for personal gain without giving back anything in return. Except blind, obsessive, fanatical hatred.
Art doesn’t belong to the world, no matter what many people say. (Indeed, it’s difficult to find an actual artist claiming this.) Art belongs to the artist. If you disagree, that’s fine: you’re perfectly entitled to create your own art. You sure as hell don’t have an ‘inalienable right’ to anything another artist creates.
Lee, You need to check yourself out at imdb. Looks like that’s where Todd got the info.
Richard Y
Because it really, really wouldn’t hurt — just once — to ASK PERMISSION TO DO SO.
What about the fandoms that have permission to do so? Notably Joss Whedon’s fans and J. R. Rowlings’s fans, the later as long as they adhere to certain rules.
You sure as hell don’t have an ‘inalienable right’ to anything another artist creates.
Actually, I have the inalienable write to think about it, talk about it, and write about it. What I don’t have is the inalienable right to take it for my own to profit from.
This whole intarweb drama saga has got me thinking. It also made me laugh; sheer stupidity on the part of some of the participants has let down both sides of the arguments. It’s also managed to undermine the middlegrounders, such as myself.
Thank you for the entertainment!
S. BAGGALEY: “Because it really, really wouldn’t hurt — just once — to ASK PERMISSION TO DO SO.”
And what if that permission is already given? What if a fan fiction author belongs to a public archive that actively respects the wishes of various authors?
I’m asking because this question is being dodged so much, it’s pathetic.
Actually, this question has been answered repeatedly. If the author/creator approves of fanfic being written and distributed on the web (or fanzines) then I believe there’s no problem. Joss Whedon apparently encourages Buffy fanfic, so why should I argue? Buffy is his character. If the fanfic doesn’t bother him, then it’s fine (you’ll notice, though, that he doesn’t read any of it for fear of legal problems…underscoring the hypocrisy of fanficcers: we can use your characters and idea but God forbid if we suspect you’ve might have used something of ours).
“you’ll notice, though, that he doesn’t read any of it for fear of legal problems…underscoring the hypocrisy of fanficcers: we can use your characters and idea but God forbid if we suspect you’ve might have used something of ours.”
The vast majority of fanfiction writers do not feel this way. Most would be thrilled rather than litigious if something similar to what they had written ended up in “canon”, they’d feel that it reflected well on their work that they had managed to approximate so closely the intentions of the creator/author. That there are one or two nutjobs who feel differently does not reflect on the majority of fanficcers. Just as the endless screaming of WHY DON’T YOU ASK PERMISSION does not apply to the many, many ficcers who write in fandoms where permission has been either tacitly (“go ahead, I just won’t read it”) or expicitly (“Go ahead, it’s a great compliment, I enjoy it”) already been given. You may say that the question’s been answered and that it’s then no problem, but when comments like “Because it really, really wouldn’t hurt — just once — to ASK PERMISSION TO DO SO” completely fail to take into account that many, if not the majority, of fanficcers have recieved that permission, you shouldn’t be surprised that people keep asking.
Appreciate the link to my blog entry, Lee, but I’m shocked you didn’t quote the best part: The dirty spam haiku.
Let’s see if we can’t fix this centering…
hmmm…try this…
score.
you wouldn’t write a scene in which Sharona fucks Monk up the ass with a strap-on because to do so would be unprofessional
My eyes! My precious eyes!
The idea that all fanwriters are obsessed with sex/porn/hentai/slash/childrape/insert any other synonym here has been repeated, as has the idea that all fanwriters agree on casting frivolous lawsuits the way of the people they write off of. Well, analogies have always been my favorite part of tests, so we’ll go with one of those.
Extreme Christian Fundamentalists (such as: “Lord, please send all pregnant teens to hell” and “All other religions deserve to be deported from our shining country”) are not the majority of Christians. BUT, they are the ones you hear the most about. As one of my favorite political commentators said, “The people on the fringes of a group tend to define that group in the public’s eye.” In this way, it seems that all of the worst stereotypes about fanwriters have now become mainstream.
It seems, though I’m no expert at law by any means, that there are laws in place to protect authors from the few “extremist” fanwriters. In this way, J.K. Rowling can say “Please don’t write any childporn with my characters” and everyone has to obey. And, if fanfiction is only marginally legal anyway, a fan that has written something that its original creator “uses” (or merely thought of on their own) should not be able to legally complain. Perhaps there needs to be a more specific law to that effect. I certainly wouldn’t complain – I’d even support it, wholeheartedly.
But just because there are Christian Fundamentalists, or Muslim Extremists, or even Scientologists (which a lot of people might agree we’d be better off without), we haven’t banned any of these religions. Though it’s an extreme analogy, perhaps, I think the main point is that there is a large group of people being maligned for something a couple of crazies have done.
And, in any case, not to generalize myself – but most of the child porn and utterly ridiculous spelling/grammar is written by younger people (such as 12 years old) who would care less even if measures were taken against fanfiction. The older ones, I can’t speak for.
Lastly, this comment caught my eye:
“you wouldn’t write a scene in which Sharona fucks Monk up the ass with a strap-on because to do so would be unprofessional”
No. No, I certainly wouldn’t. I don’t even use that kind of language, let alone imagine that kind of disgusting scenario. Not to mention I haven’t seen the series you’re talking about. (But then, if you want to look at something like Dawson’s Creek, where a teen boy has sex with his teacher, there are all kinds of similiarly inappropriate things on TV already – you can’t claim people are coming up with this stuff entirely on their own, you know.)
Please stop with this idea that all fanwriters are hopeless perverts. It’s been repeated many times and (many times) it has been proven wrong. I write nothing myself that I would be ashamed to show my own mother.
The fanfic debate continues
Honestly, why is there the impression that fanfic writers are ungrateful louts who disprespect the very authors and creators they attempt to emulate? I’m sorry, this is just a weird question … which is why it caught my eye. Does…
When Snow proffers a strawman, does that make it a snowman?
Thing is, I never said that all fanfiction is misspelled, typo-ridden, and physically impossible porn. Nor did I say that a good portion of it isn’t genuinely thoughtful and creative, with real effort on the author’s part behind its creation.
Note, however, that a fanfic can satisfy the above criteria and still not be an original, well-plotted, properly structured, producible story that serves the franchise.
The fanfic debate continues
Honestly, why is there the impression that fanfic writers are ungrateful louts who disprespect the very authors and creators they attempt to emulate? I’m sorry, this is just a weird question … which is why it caught my eye. Does…
And, in any case, not to generalize myself – but most of the child porn … is written by younger people (such as 12 years old) who would care less even if measures were taken against fanfiction.
Wrong. That’s just wrong. If they’re a bunch of kids, then there’s another issue. Because why the hell are the archives letting kids post that stuff? But they’re not kids writing it. They’re adults. Adults who should know better and don’t give a d*mn.
The older ones, I can’t speak for.
You can tell them to stop. Then people won’t think that all fanficcers are sick pervs who like to write about kids having sex.
I write nothing myself that I would be ashamed to show my own mother.
Me neither.
*off to soak head in cold water again*
Because why the hell are the archives letting kids post that stuff? But they’re not kids writing it. They’re adults. Adults who should know better and don’t give a d*mn.
I’d agree with you. Why are they posting? They’re obviously not old enough and not mature enough. The problem with making a statement like: “Why isn’t anyone stopping them” is that the internet is such a hard place to police. If someone can fake a driver’s license to get beer at fifteen, they can certainly send an email saying they’re twenty. And… god. If you’ve ever played an online game, you will have met more twelve year old pre-pubescent boys than you want to. A few of them are polite. Most of them just swear like sailors. In this case, it’s a matter of not enough parental policing – why don’t their parents know where they are online, as a for-instance?
Adults, on the other hand, I cannot speak for because I cannot tell them to stop. Well – I could. And do. But if they’re writing child porn, they’re not likely to listen. In my large experience – they don’t.
I don’t know where people got the idea that each and every fanwriter has immediate control over all others. We can exert pressure in a group form against our own members – and do – but can do nothing if such members decide to leave and join other, less restricting groups. We do as much as we can. We don’t like the stigmas either. But as they say, you can’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, and a very good deal of fanfiction writers have a healthy respect for society’s guidelines. They’re human beings, after all.
You’ll notice, though, that Fanfiction.net, one of the largest archives on the net (arguably, THE largest) does police itself as well as it can. Because fanfiction is not for profit, they rely a lot on volunteers to search for violaters of policy (i.e. NC-17 and rape writers) and also on readers to report. There is, in fact, a very convenient button that says “report this story” in every review box. It gets used. People are banned. Stories are taken down without notice. Sometimes, they are stories that don’t actually have anything in them, but then, that’s the price you pay for safety.
Fiction Alley, another of the largest Harry Potter archives on the net, has volunteers that must approve EACH and EVERY story before it is posted. Many get dropped for grammar and also for explicit content.
I think the problem here – and we agree that it is a problem – is that you cannot force everyone into one fanfiction community. You cannot even force them into A fanfiction community. Sometimes, they will post their fiction on their own site. At which point, there is nothing anyone can do about it until the law gets involved. In my opinion, that’s what it’s really there for – when things get out of hand.
On a side note, thank you very much for responding politely and rationally. It’s not something much seen in heated debates such as this.
On a side note, thank you very much for responding politely and rationally. It’s not something much seen in heated debates such as this.
Heh. My friends are shoving duct tape into my hands. Telling me shut up, that I’m losing my temper. They’re right. I am.
IMHO, FA has a lot of highly questionable stories which are easily available. So, for me, it’s a lousy example to use. FF.net is a behemoth. Lots of places ban NC-17 now. So everybody rerates their story to R and post happily away.
I’m glad to hear you don’t like the porn though. Glad you speak up about it. Maybe others will also. Thanks, it’s apppreciated.
I actually feel pity for the people that run fanfiction.net. In a way, they’re at an impasse – they’re doing everything they can to stop NC-17 writers because of complaints, yet as they have many deviants posting, and they can’t possibly keep track of everything personally, they have to do what they can.
As I said, “what they can” is fairly good, in my opinion. They take down what’s reported without even asking and ban authors. The problem with asking them to moderate every single fic as it is posted is that there isn’t enough voluntary manpower in the world to do so. And, if they decided to force uploaders to review, lies would be told out of frustration and irresponsibility.
I’m CERTAIN that if someone were to come up with a better way of policing that they would love to hear it. I’m not being sarcastic. If you think of a way, email it to them, and I’m sure they’ll try to implement it.
As for FA – moderators are human. I don’t approve, naturally, of the people that let things slide. But I find it hosts quite a few novel-quality authors, and that it’s easier to weed out the trash there than at fanfiction.net. As there are clear warnings on everything (this is slash, this is violent, etc) others should be able to steer clear of objectionable material as well.
As one of my younger “friends” so aptly put it, if a young adult is looking for porn, they will find it. A warning label is there, but they are willfully ignoring it. Of course, this was in a little more colorful language (and highly offensive), but it was true, nonetheless. I do believe that parents are partially to blame. When I am a mother, you can BET there’ll be a password to the internet, and that I’ll be there when my kids are surfing.
And though I personally don’t PREFER sexual stories, I believe that they have their place and that it is a very SPECIFIC place. Mostly on livejournals, under friends filters, and on clearly labeled sites. I say this because some of my good online friends write romance-novelesque fiction that ends the way romance novels usually do. Though without the purple prose, I’m told.
Also, I say it because there are some more adult fandoms which use quite a bit of innuendo in their shows or books. In which case, the logical continuation of the author’s train of thought ends there, and children really should NOT be watching it anyway (a few Adult Swim shows, I believe).
I don’t promote child porn under ANY circumstances – likewise non-consensual. Incest makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but at least it isn’t a vivid description of something traumatizing, and, as always, I don’t have to read it if it’s clearly marked.
I’m afraid I’m very openminded, however, so I see no problem with PG slash on public forums (as in, holding hands, pecking lips, etc). It’s gotten me into ENDLESS trouble with the Conservative neighbors. Er… but then, that’s a moral and political question and neither here nor there.
S. BAGGALEY:
Because it really, really wouldn’t hurt — just once — to ASK PERMISSION TO DO SO.
Several people have already pointed out that many creators DO give permission to their fans to write fanfic, so no need for me to retread.
Also, yes, it possibly WOULD hurt to do so. As long as the creator isn’t drawn into it in any way (financially or legally), fanfic is a bloodless sport. Bring the author into it, and we have the Marrion Zimmer Bradley Fiasco, the Anne Rice SNAFU, and Chelsea Quinn Yarbro taking her fans to court.
Do you know about anime fansubs? They’re English-subtitled versions of shows not yet licensed for distribution in the US, produced by fans, for fans, without profit. Legally, the mother companies in Japan would have to go after any individual production brought to their attention. But they try to look the other way, because these fansubs are actually beneficial. They raise awareness and interest in shows which otherwise might go unknown, and the money follows.
Fanfiction often does the same thing. I’ve heard lots of people say they never would have gotten into a particular book or television series if their favorite fanfic writer hadn’t started writing for it. So as long as the writer doesn’t publicly state their opposition, I think it’s best to leave them out of it as much as possible. (And yes, I DO think it’s up to the writer/creator to get out there and make their wishes known. It’s not like fanfiction is some obscure subculture anymore.)
To me, it merely suggests a failure of the imagination, which isn’t something I associate with talent. (Yes, this is my opinion, not a cast-iron ‘fact’. Feel free to pelt me with virtual rotten tomatoes or whatever.)
I honestly don’t care what your opinion is, I’m just amazed at the ire and vitriol being expressed around here — by professional writers, no less — about the people who keep them in business. Condemning what a fan does in their spare time is a dangerous tactic to take. What’s next on the list of personal hobbies soon to be labeled immoral/disgusting/An Affront To The Artistic Soul?
(That was not a specific comment on anything you yourself have said, only some ridiculous claims that have been thrown around in this blog.)
If it really _is_ a form of practice, as you claim, why post it online for all the world to see? The answer is because you want to get something in return, be it kudos, attention, ‘respect’, hits to your website, or whatever.
Yes, feedback is the aim. But it doesn’t have to be all ego-fluffing. A varied and impersonal forum is one of the greatest gifts an artist can ask for. Submitting a work for critique can be tough, often because you give it to friends or family, and so their responses aren’t always the most helpful. On the internet there are no names or relations, just brutal honesty. Entire online communities are dedicated to tearing down bad work. Entire communities are dedicated to supporting what they think is GOOD work. If a story or piece of artwork influences someone, it’s not because they’re a friend or trying to let you down gently, but because you did something right — and vice versa. A writer can learn what works and what doesn’t through vox populi, which has never been an option before, and I’m personally fascinated to see what the results in ‘mainstream’ writing will be in the next decade.
And that means you’re using other people’s property for personal gain without giving back anything in return.
That’s a pretty broad definition of ‘personal gain.’ If a guy chats up a woman in a bar by discussing the religious and artistic anachronisms in “The DaVinci Code,” does that mean Dan Brown can haul his ass to court?
Fans get enjoyment from a work, and they share that enjoyment with other fans in a creative way. That’s it. No other profit involved.
Plus, I’d argue about the not giving anything in return. The people who are devoted enough to a fandom to write/read fanfic are your merchandizing target audience. They will buy special editions, DVDs, posters, hardbacks and paperbacks, figurines, and attend the same conventions the artist does. And these are the people you are pissing off.
Except blind, obsessive, fanatical hatred.
… I’m going to assume you were being sarcastic here. If not, then, well, this conversation is pointless, because you really don’t know anything about the fanfic community at large.
Art belongs to the artist. If you disagree, that’s fine: you’re perfectly entitled to create your own art. You sure as hell don’t have an ‘inalienable right’ to anything another artist creates.
Fanfic writers don’t claim that anything they write “belongs” to them, except their own original works. They pour their time, money, and interest into a world that someone else has built, and now and again they want to play in the sandbox of someone they aknowledge to be smarter and more creative.
And you’re threatened by this?
Fine. Tell them not to play in your sandbox. The other artists and writers you’re concerned for are big kids, let them handle their own sandcastles.
MAESTRO:
Note, however, that a fanfic can satisfy the above criteria and still not be an original, well-plotted, properly structured, producible story that serves the franchise.
The key of so many of these arguments seems to be that last criteria — a franchise. So, what, a royalty check is what makes a writer?
As for the rest: you’re right, not all fanfic ‘works.’ Neither does all original, franchise-supporting fiction. Quite the opposite. I could name a few ragingly popular and profitable franchises where the writer has pretty much gone to lunch.
You were arguing that a fanfic writer doesn’t appreciate the amount of work a ‘legitimate’ writer does. I was trying to show you the opposite is true. And to assume that fanfic writers don’t put any kind of effort into their work — an effort you seem to think they take for granted, and is only on the original creator’s part — is also untrue. And uninformed.
I think a lot of people here are having fun poo-pooing something they know very little about. The fact that they’re so quick to dismiss and condemn an entire subculture after reading a handful of stories on FanFiction.net… well, their opinions can’t be worth much, after all.
Do you know about anime fansubs? They’re English-subtitled versions of shows not yet licensed for distribution in the US, produced by fans, for fans, without profit. Legally, the mother companies in Japan would have to go after any individual production brought to their attention.
Hmm.. I used to read about movies in Mad magazine (the parody — a form of fanfic?), and then see the film. Sometimes, I only went to the film because the Mad parody had been funny.
Mind you, that was when I was twelve.
For the record, I’m not a professional writer. I’d like to be, but I’m in no rush to leave my well-paid day job right now. (I work in IT.)
My cynicism comes from my years working in the videogames industry, as a graphics artist, programmer, game designer and even in customer support. I know from first-hand experience that the vast majority of people are more than happy to expect something for nothing.
I’ve seen videogames with price-tags of a few dollars being pirated. I’ve seen people pass off my damned work as their own in reader competitions. I am no friend of the ‘fan’. I don’t mind normal, low-level fanaticism, but I honestly don’t understand how anyone can seriously claim “Fanfic writers don’t claim that anything they write “belongs” to them, except their own original works.”
What “original works” would those be? The ones using another writer’s characters and settings, or the fiction written entirely by the fan without recourse to any ‘middleware’?
I mean, I love “Doctor Who”, but I don’t intend to waste my time writing unpublishable fanfic set in the same universe. I’d rather build my own universes, my own characters and write my own stories. If BBC Wales ever decide to invite me to write some tie-in novels for them, _then_ I’d consider it, but I’d still want to write stories set in my own fictional universe using my own fictional characters.
Now, to be fair, there _is_ a lot of fun to be had in writing tie-in novels. Artists frequently enjoy working within a restricted set of rules: it’s a challenge. But this is usually more to do with the _craft_ of writing — the process of plotting, creating supporting characters, new worlds that fit into an existing SF universe and keeping it all consistent with canon. It’s only a _part_ of the fun. And arguably not the best part, although some tie-in specialists may well disagree with this. (I suspect Lee himself would.)
My problem with fanfic isn’t about the subject matter. I simply cannot understand _why_ anyone would want to skip on the fun part of creating your _own_ characters, your _own_ worlds. Why be a minion, when you can be a god?
Okay, we get that you don’t like fanfic. Now shut up about it.
Let me clear up some misconceptions you have.
1. It’s not all porn, kiddie porn, slash, etc. Those things exist, but most fans will avoid them, especially the kiddie porn. Slash is popular, but so is het and gen.
2. Many fandoms encourage fans to write fanfic. Some have contests. Some will publish it.
3. We do this because we care. We care about the characters. We want them to live on.
4. For some fandoms, this is all we have. For TV shows that may have been short lived or are old and not commercially available, fanfic is the only thing to keep it alive for the fans.
5. In many cases, the fanfic is a lot better than the official tie-in books.
S. Baggaley wrote: If BBC Wales ever decide to invite me to write some tie-in novels for them, _then_ I’d consider it,
But…Dr Who tie-in novels are written primarily by people who are fans. I don’t know that the BBC “invite” writers as such, so I wouldn’t hold your breath. I think for Who they have a slush pile of fanfiction sent in on spec, and a stable of writers who’ve worked on the series.
Kamyn wrote: 5. In many cases, the fanfic is a lot better than the official tie-in books.
This is certainly true – the best of ST:TOS fanfic is parsecs better than the Star Trek books, helped certainly not being constrained by a set of idiotic guidelines.
Hey, slightly off-topic question:
Do people write fan-fiction of people, or just fictional environments fan fiction? The reason I ask is that I found someone coming to my site via a search for “Sam Rockwell fanfiction.”
Now, I found that to be incredibly funny, and wrote a piece of Sam Rockwell fanfiction as something of a joke (you can see it, if you’re interested, via brianhogg.com), but I’m wondering if I’m poking fun at something that doesn’t even exist.
Do people write fan-fiction of people, or just fictional environments fan fiction?
Eugh. Unfortunately…
Some people do write real person fiction. And it sucks. I want to say without exception, but I’m trying so, so hard not to make generalizations. Doesn’t matter, because I think it’s wrong. ff.net pulled the category because THAT is definitely setting some people angry and I can’t blame them. In my opinion, real person fiction really ought to be prosecuted.
Now, on the flip side – Paris Hilton really, REALLY had it coming. (Loook! I’ve loooost my video tape! I hope no one writes overly salacious material because of it!)
Lee – sorry to hijack your blog in a way, but I couldn’t find any other way to reply to Claire, who said that my site, FictionAlley, has “a lot of highly questionable stories which are easily available” among the over 70,000 chapters and fics that we host, including those, she implies, that are not behind our two-screen mechanism that filters away honest kids under 17 whose parents wouldn’t want them to read R-rated material. So I wanted to ask her to please contact the Help Desk with the urls of the fics, or at least the story names and/or author names (ideally both) so we can look into it. We can be reached at help@fictionalley.org, or via the website itself. I honestly haven’t spent much time on FA’s fic side for a while recently, between having baby number three and working on our fundraiser for the scholarship program we’re launching next year (which is why I haven’t weighed in on the legal issues here to date), so any comments she can give would be appreciated. However, we really do think that our R-rating screen is a good and reasonable way to keep the younger kids from the R-rated fics without their parents’ permission.
Courtney,
It’s funny, I would think fictionalized stories of real people would be far less objectionable than straight up fan fiction. Unless you’re outright slandering someone, really, it’s not like you’re violating intellectual property laws, you know?
(Mine, entirely meant as a joke, is at: http://www.inelegant.net/writings.php?writingId=219)
If you mean it, Heidi, then somebody will contact you. Many of the stories on FA violate JKR’s statement that she doesn’t want obscenity. None of us wants to end up in an argument over whether or not Harry and Draco getting it on after dropping ecstasy or Draco doing things he shouldn’t do while wearing leather violates Ms. Rowling’s statement. Frankly, if a fic is R-rated it violates that standard. None of us wants to waste our time bolstering your PR campaign.
I’m sorry, Claire, but can you point me to where JKR said she didn’t want obscenity? Because in the four plus years I’ve been on staff at the leaky cauldron, I’ve never seen such a comment from her. But if you know where it is, I’d love to see it. Thanks again for your help!
PS – WB knows we have R-rated fics on our site, behind a screen that asks whether the reader is underage, and after that, if they say they are, there’s a second screen which asks if their parents or guardians would be ok with their seeing an R-rated fic. One can’t be on the front page of the New York Times without attracting the attention of the powers that be. Of course, in our case, that attention turned out to be a request from the WB shop that we become an associate of their online store.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3753001.stm
I’ve some other references, but they’re buried somewhere. Although, really, Heidi, common sense says she’d just as soon not see obscenity written about a children’s series she sells through Scholastic Books.
Of course, in our case, that attention turned out to be a request from the WB shop that we become an associate of their online store.
What do you mean…Warner Brothers is okay with the obscenity? Or they wanted the second splash page?
More strawmen/snowmen/faulty logic.
“a franchise. So, what, a royalty check is what makes a writer?”
No, I was using the term the way Lee & Bill do in their book. In a nutshell, what I meant by “serves the franchise” is what you went on to concede, “not all fanfic ‘works.'”
While it’s true that, “Neither does all original, franchise-supporting fiction”, that in no way makes fanfics OK. Just because X is wrong, does not necessarily mean that Y is right.
You also wrote:
“If a guy chats up a woman in a bar by discussing the religious and artistic anachronisms in “The DaVinci Code,” does that mean Dan Brown can haul his ass to court?”
That’s a very poor analogy. Now, if the guy had (to bring another of Lee’s favorite topics into this) self-published a DaVinci Code sequel, and was using that to get over with the babes…
And re:
“Fanfic writers don’t claim that anything they write “belongs” to them, except their own original works.”
Fanfics, by definition, are not original works; they are derivative works.
Oh, and in answer to your previous question:
“why is there the impression that fanfic writers are ungrateful louts who disprespect the very authors and creators they attempt to emulate?”
How about we start with this statement of yours:
“And yes, I DO think it’s up to the writer/creator to get out there and make their wishes known.”
Hardly what I would call a respectful attitude – M.
P.S. To Courtney,
While it’s probably not in my best interest to quibble with an analogy that likens writers to gods, I feel compelled to note that there are some who think moderate Muslims should (more) strongly denounce the actions of the extremist factions.
Perhaps if moderate fanfic writers like you more strongly denounced fanfic writers who hold more radical beliefs–for example, those who think that their “original works” belong to them, when, as you previously wrote, “a fan that has written something that its original creator “uses” (or merely thought of on their own) should not be able to legally complain.”–you and those like you might be looked upon more favorably.
Fanfic again? Are there no other relevant topics in the writing world?
You don’t like it. Fine. Others do. Fine. Ceasingly bashing each other as idiots shows a lack of maturity on both sides.
To Maestro: I was just doing so in a public forum. If someone on my LJ friends list wrote something of the sort: “OMG, JKR SO stole this from me!!!” I would publicly disagree. So would everyone else.
However, I haven’t seen a single person claim JKR, or any other author, is stealing from them. I know of no one. That doesn’t mean this person doesn’t exist, it just means I haven’t met them in my seven or so years of fanwriting/reading. It’s a lot rarer than everyone seems to think it is.
And while fanfiction is a hobby for me, and makes me happy – painstakingly searching out that one person out of a million that’s trying to sue for rights should not be something I’m obligated to do just because I also happen to write fanfiction. How much more strongly do I have to state that I think these people are insane? Should I make a livejournal group, just for hunting these people down? And what do I do when I find them? “Bad!” I’d say. “Bad fanwriter!” You probably don’t want to imagine what they’d say back.
An analogy is an analogy after all, and it only uses one aspect of a similar situation – I wasn’t likening writers to gods. I was comparing the situation to another: large groups of people with extremists on the fringe. I’m sorry if I didn’t clarify enough. Religion seemed the most well-known example.
I could give you a better analogy if you want, but it takes quite a bit of explanation and might just spark some other horrifying argument, so it’s best I leave it alone if you already get it.
Claire, you’re not quoting her, you’re refering to a paraphrase of one of her reps. Again, I ask you to point out any NC-17, or, to quote Neil, “X-rated” fics on FA, and if you prefer to do it via email, that would also be much appreciated. I now wonder if the fact that you seem to be refusing to do it means you can’t find any such thing.
Along those lines, “obscenity” in the US is a vaguely specific thing, with court cases generating a definition. In the US, according to the Supreme Court, ot be obscene, 1) A thing must be prurient in nature, 2) a thing must be completely devoid of scientific, political, educational, or social value and 3) a thing must violate the local community standards. My personal opinion is that there have been fanfics that do merit the term obscene, but nothing that merits that term is hosted on FictionAlley.
And to reply specifically to the second part of your question now, no, WB did not request the second part of our splash page. It was requested by parents who wanted to be able to give their children permission to read R-rated stories, probably with a mindset like that of Dan Radcliffe’s parents were ok with his seeing Y Tu Mama Tambien when he was 14 (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/004015.html).
Heidi wrote: I now wonder if the fact that you seem to be refusing to do it means you can’t find any such thing.
Heidi, Claire has a history on this blog, in my experience (and I’ve been hanging about here for a few months) of flinging out accusations and assertions, and then refusing to back them up with examples, let alone facts.
She also, when you suggest a solution which might involve her in work or to take on any king of partial responsibility (like, being a parent) refuses to further address the issue.
Best of luck.
I’m not sure how I’ve become drawn into reading this conversation, but I have. I write books for teenagers as well as for younger children and I want to make only one point:
Books for teenagers have sex and drug use in them.
Whether or not you like fanfic, I think the argument that teenagers should not have access to fiction dealing with sex is not workable. Teenagers are having sex younger and their literature should (and does) reflect that. Calling fanfic obscene when it is no worse than Burgess’ DOING IT or Cormier’s TENDERNESS seems disingenuous.
Books for teenagers have sex and drug use in them
Thank you so much for bringing this up, Hollly. I will never understand why people attack fanfics for having ratings and content which I can buy at Barnes and Noble in the “teen” section.
Most fanfiction is written for ages 13 and above and, frankly, is nothing that is not already contained in books, comics, and especially Telvision, aimed at that same age group.
I recall reading a Cristopher Pike book *sold at the booksale at my elementary school* in which the teenage characters were having oral sex.
My mother prombtly took the book from me when I asked her what that was (look active parenting).
Popular show slike Buffy have included teenage sex in them and the OC has had teen drug use and alchole use etc etc etc etc
And I won’t even touch video games.
Fanfiction is not doing anything that major networks and book publishers don’t do already *Shrugs*.
“Fanfiction is not doing anything that major networks and book publishers don’t do already.”
None of the fanfiction on Fiction Alley, at any rate.
Weighing in because everyone seems to be missing my favorite point in this debate…
Creating art is a good thing for people to do. Singing, drawing, writing, arranging food beautifully on a plate — all these are things that expand the human soul.
Somewhere in the past century or so, our culture has decided that people should only do these things if they can make money on them. You see someone with a little artistic talent making a drawing on a sign for a local bake sale, and you immediately suggest she do it professionally. The same for fanfic, and so on and so on.
I want to know what’s wrong with just sketching your surroundings and not trying to sell it. Or writing stories about some characters you saw on TV and not trying to sell them.
I don’t think art should be reduced only to commerce. Any writing should be encouraged! If people want to write about what they know, and what they know is the show they saw on TV last night, please– don’t discourage them. Just like people would repeat and expand and add to the stories told by traveling bards a thousand years ago, this is something that enriches all of our lives.