Is Fanfic Legal?

Author John Scalzi has irked fanficcers by <gasp> saying that he believes fanfiction is illegal which, of course, it clearly is.

it’s clear that some portion of fanficcers actually seems to believe
that writing fanfic isn’t actually copyright infringement, and that
therefore it "exists in a gray area" or is actually not illegal
via some interpretation of fair use. Some of this belief stems from the
contention that there has not been (to the common knowledge) a
copyright suit specifically dealing with fanfic, probably because a
"Cease & Desist" letter is usually enough to cause the fanficcer to
take down his/her fanfic so no court case is necessary. The thinking
here seems to be that if a suit does not specifically address fanfic, then the legal status of fanfic is in fact indeterminate.

I can’t help but think this is a bit of magical thinking, based on
the idea that fanfic is in itself a legally special class of writing
(possibly under the "we’re doing this for fun" idea), which as far as I
can see it’s not. It’s bound to the same injunctions and restrictions
as any other piece of creative writing. Certainly US copyright law
carves out protections for fair use, parody and criticism, and equally
certainly some fanfic qualifies under a realistic reading of
these protections. But I hazard to guess the vast majority of fanfic
could not be shoehorned into these protections even under the most
liberal of terms.

He backs up his assertion with a lengthy post that quotes an intellectual property attorney and the Chilling Effects Clearing House (a joint project of the Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, University of San
Francisco, University of Maine, George Washington Schools of Law)
on the subject.  What I found especially interesting was a letter sent by JK Rowling’s attorneys to some fanficcers who were writing porno Harry Potter stories.

As you are aware, Ms. Rowling is the author of the Harry Potter books. Ms. Rowling therefore owns the copyright in the Harry Potter books. The sexually explicit content of the fan fiction available at www.restrictedsection.org, which is plainly based on characters and other elements of the fictional world
created by Ms. Rowling in the Harry Potter books, is a matter of
serious concern to our client. In addition, our client Warner Bros,
which owns the film and merchandising rights to
the children’s series of Harry Potter books, is concerned to protect
the integrity of its Harry Potter properties. For the avoidance of
doubt, our clients make no complaint about innocent fan fiction written by genuine Harry Potter fans.

She’s okay with fanfic but is ready to go after people who write sexually explicit material using her characters. That should serve as a warning to anyone who thinks that writing about Harry and Ron exploring the magical delights of anal sex is "fair use."

115 thoughts on “Is Fanfic Legal?”

  1. I should be so lucky to have a problem with fans ripping off my ideas. I think the only thing for which my writing is used by my readers is to line birdcages across Western Washington.
    On second thought…I keep seeing Road & Track and Automobile magazines featuring the same cars as my column just a few weeks after I run. Get my lawyer on the phone!

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  2. I would be more impressed by the arguments that FanFic is legal if anyone other than FanFic writers were making them.
    I have yet to see any compelling argument, either legally- or ethically-based, that convinces me that FanFic is or should be legal and/or acceptable.
    The doctrine of “But I enjoy doing it, so why shouldn’t I be able to?” remains wholly unpersuasive.
    This is obvious on the face of it to anyone who has ever created anything original to him or herself.

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  3. Man, this is all giving me flashbacks… I did a major research paper on Character Copyrights/Trademarks and how that relates to fan fiction for a Communications Law class about fifteen years ago… bottom line was fanfic had no legal leg – got an “A”, as I recall… 🙂
    some people are still making the same arguments for fanfic they did then, and they’re still getting it wrong. I need to did through my archives and see if I can find that thing…

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  4. What keeps popping up in these threads it that no one seems to be able to keep copyright infringement, derivative writing and plagiarism straight in their heads. One is a legal issue and the other two are moral/ethical ones. Legality and ethics are not synonymous, especially when applied to intellectual property law. If that were true, we wouldn’t have the infinitely expanding copyright and material would go back into the public domain in reasonable time (not reasonable as defined by Disney and the software industry).
    Neither do people seem able to separate legality, morality and ethics. I’m not particularly interested in whether fanfiction is legal-in my opinion it probably is not, at least in the USA and in Europe, but then my only experience with copyright law is when I have to sign it away every time I submit something to a professional journal. But while legality may have been Mr. Goldberg’s original point, what a number of people in this and the previous thread seem to be arguing about is whether it is moral and ethical – and that is a different question entirely.
    There are a number of fandoms where the original creators have given tacit approval for fanfic (for example, JK Rowling’s main objection appears to be that some of what is done with her characters could be taken as kiddie porn, since the characters are underage. Otherwise, it’s been reported, she doesn’t mind and even encourages it). But tacit approval doesn’t mean a lot in legal terms since, if I understand correctly, copyright is protected unless the author gives specific approval. But is it unethical if one has been given to believe that the author doesn’t care?
    In many media fandoms, the canon is not the creation of a single author and prospective script writers are expected to have several (admittedly un-published) spec scripts ready. How is fan writing ethically any different or less creative than a tv spec script (which is also, technically, illegal)? And what if the TV show or movie in question is no longer in production and the creators have stated that they have no intention of continuing with it? An argument could be made that fan works actually _benefit_ these shows by keeping fan interest alive and creating a continuing market for DVDs and other tie-ins. But can the fan on her own make that determination?
    Copyright exists in order to protect the ability of the original creator to profit from their work and, at least in the US, thereby encourage creativity. If there’s nothing unethical about writing derivative works based on material in the public domain, then what is unethical about writing derivative material as long as it is on the understood condition that it is both not for profit and that it doesn’t interfere with the original creator’s ablitiy to profit from their work? (I’m aware of the Marion Zimmer Bradley case, at least peripherally, but that seems IMHO to be the exception of a fan writer acting in bad faith, rather than a general property of fandom).
    I’ve asked more questions than I have answered, but my personal take on this is that it depends on the fandom, and that it is the responsibility of both fan writers and fanfic readers to weigh all these factors and make a determination that they, morally and ethically, can live with.
    Calling fanwriters “the remoras of the lit fringe” as Mr. York did seems to indicate he doesn’t think very much about their creative talents, but says nothing about the ethics of derivative writing.
    And no, Mr. Montgommery, I am not a fan writer.

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  5. “but says nothing about the ethics of derivative writing.”
    Well, I was indeed remise in that department. They have no ethics, except “honor” among thieves. Anyone dare try Holden Caulfield fanfic? There’s a test for you. And if I see it, I’ll send it to the old man myself.

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  6. Mr. York,
    I’m sure that authors like Tom Stoppard, Neil Gaiman, Isabela Allende, Fred Saberhagen and Orson Scott Card (all authors of published derivative works) would be happy to hear that you don’t think they have any ethics, but perhaps for the sake of argument you would like to explain the basis for your assertion.
    For that matter, Shakespeare happily stole characters, settings and scenes from his contemporaries. While I wouldn’t dare argue that your average fan slash story achieves the quality of Troilus and Cressida, I’d really like to know what you think of Shakespeare’s ethics and how that relates to your judgement of the quality and creativity of his work.

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  7. “In many media fandoms, the canon is not the creation of a single author and prospective script writers are expected to have several (admittedly un-published) spec scripts ready. How is fan writing ethically any different or less creative than a tv spec script (which is also, technically, illegal)?”
    I have covered this before here many times…but I will say it again in fewer words. There’s a HUGE difference between spec episode teleplays and fanfic.
    The studios allows people to write spec episodic scripts using existing characters, situations, etc. for one narrowly defined purpose — as a writing sample for a job on a TV series. You are not allowed to publish your spec or distribute it for any other purpose. Writing a spec teleplay is an accepted industry practice in the employement of professional writers and has the expressed consent of the rights holders and, therefore, is not an infringement of copyright or trademark.
    Fanfic is copyright infringement, trademark infringement, and a violation of the creative rights of the author/rights holder of the original work.

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  8. “I’ve asked more questions than I have answered, but my personal take on this is that it depends on the fandom, and that it is the responsibility of both fan writers and fanfic readers to weigh all these factors and make a determination that they, morally and ethically, can live with.”
    What about the AUTHORS??? What gives “fandom” the right to decide how an author’s characters are used? Fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement and ownership. Just because you enjoy watching or reading something doesn’t mean it’s YOURS. The decision about how a writer’s characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer.
    MONK is not mine. He is not my creation. I would never even think about writing stories about him WITHOUT THE CREATOR’S APPROVAL My Monk books are written with the consent, involvement and final approval of Andy Breckman, who created the character and, by all rights, should be the only one who decides how Adrian Monk is used(in fact, the only reason I am writing Monk book is because Andy asked me to).

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  9. “You are not allowed to publish your spec or distribute it for any other purpose.”
    I assume you meant “and distribute”, not “or”, because giving it to your agent *is* publishing. Your agent giving it to *anybody* else is also publishing.
    Beyond that which is merely nitpicking, this kind of tacit approval, if anything, actually strengthens the argument for fan fiction. It’s a wide spread industry that sanctions, thrives, and does not suffer at all from what is essentially fan fiction. Those are key factors that determine the legality of alleged infringement in court. Think about it.
    Spec’s are not for direct financial gain (just like ff.)
    Spec’s do not compete in the same market, or threaten the market for the original material (just like ff) because the market is the produced show, not the spec script.
    As I’ve said in other places, the Supreme Court has said that these two factors are paramount over all others, and most things that pass these two tests must be heavily favored to be held non-infringing (their words, paraphrased, not mine. I’m dead serious about this and *everybody* on the planet that is anti-ff ignores it completely.)
    Then consider that fan fiction actually has *more* going for it, in that it some of it (and perhaps most of it, perhaps not, that’s a big assumption) is transformative. I’ve noted this as a toss up, and could fall either way in a court.
    FF also does not use an unrealistic amount of the original material in replication. Just names and places. What you end up with is an entire industry that chooses (by your view) to intentionally ignore a massive amount of infringement, and doesn’t suffer *at all* for it. In a court, believe me when I say that a judge would lend great weight towards that. A great deal.
    I mean heck, you can argue until you’re blue in the face, but there are definitely two sides to the debate. Both have lawyers who agree with them, both have anecdotal evidence, and neither side has any case precedent (though I have found a few copyright cases that establish the importance of the four tests — 2 in particular — over all other concerns.)
    I’ve seen people dismiss the fair use arguments as “tired”, but nobody has been able to refute them with the exception of transformative, and I’ve already admitted that transformative is a tossup. I’ve said this to people on my own site in my own comments: saying “you’re wrong because I said so” is not an argument. Saying “you’re wrong because this other guy is right” also is not an argument. Saying “fair use doesn’t cover this” is not an argument. Saying “fair use applies because a Supreme Court decision said “x” “x” and “x” about copyright, and that supports the claim — as does this law professor, as does the text of the law…” *That* is the beginning of an argument.
    Granted, those things alone don’t make a case, but when you add them up, you’re well on your way. The anti-ff crowd hasn’t done this. I read what Scalzi wrote (he came over to my site and busted my chops for disagreeing..twice, which frankly I loved) but I don’t think he made his case. All he really has is one IP lawyer who agreed with him, and big deal, so did I. Mine was a professor to boot. It doesn’t mean anything in and of itself.
    You can believe what you want to believe, make any statements you want to make, but declaring fan fiction to be illegal as a matter of fact — that which has not been proven as a matter of law — is intellectually dishonest. Even I didn’t declare it as fact, only that I’m as sure as I can be that I’m right, and everything I had that supported my opinion, which is substantially more than anybody else has provided thus far.
    Nobody is arguing that creators don’t have rights, only that those rights are not exclusive to them. And beyond that, fan fiction *does* live in a darn gray area, because even lawyers can’t agree on it, and because no judge has ever decided it either way. In my mind, until proven otherwise, because this specific issue has not been adjudicated, FF should probably be presumed legal, just as *any* defendant in a court case must be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This legal issue has never been tried and thus should not be presumed illegal until it has. I haven’t made that argument directly until right now, but if you want it, there’s another thing in fan fiction’s favor.
    Now as far as trademark law goes, that’s a whole other argument and a whole other section of the law for a whole other day.

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  10. “What about the AUTHORS??? What gives “fandom” the right to decide how an author’s characters are used? Fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement and ownership. Just because you enjoy watching or reading something doesn’t mean it’s YOURS. The decision about how a writer’s characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer.”
    Well you and I (though not everyone in this thread) agree that it is infringement under the law. But if the ethical basis for the existence of copyright protection is to allow the author to profit from his work and encourage creativity* then what is the difference between A: writing something which is derivative of material in the public domain and B: writing something which is derivative of material where the author/creator is still alive as long as it is with the stated understanding that it is not for profit and won’t compete directly with the author/creator’s work?
    And how do fandoms where the author/creator has given tacit, though not specific, approval fit into this framework?
    Both ethically and under the law, intellectual property is not the same as real property-it eventually goes into the public domain. It doesn’t take a sense of entitlement to be willing to think about how, when, and why that happens.
    * at least in the US-I understand that fair use and the basis for the IP law is constructed differently Europe and that certain types of fanfiction are clearly and actually legal in Japan.

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  11. There is one big difference between a spec script and fan fiction that is being ignored. A spec script is written for professional reasons, to show that the writer can write a usable script for a television series. It is meant to be shown to other professionals in the industry. Fan fiction is written for personal reasons and personal reasons alone. Those are two very different things that are not connected at all.
    I also don’t consider fan fiction “fair,” just unimaginative, lazy, and stupid.

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  12. Unlike fanfic, as Lee points out, writing TV spec scripts for professional purposes has the approval of the rights holders. Fanfiction does not. You are mistaking not being sued for approval. It’s not the same thing.
    There have been many authors (and Lee has listed some of them elsewhere in the fanfic debate on his blog) who have come out publicly and said they do not approve of fanfic. Rowling has said she does not approve of sexually explicit Potter fic. But fanficcers say fuck you and do it anyway.
    By contrast, no studio or network has EVER said writers can’t write episodic spec scripts. In fact, they say the opposite. In order to get a TV writing job, you MUST write an episodic spec first as your professional entre.
    It’s a ridiculous fantasy for fanfiction writers to compare the masturbatory slop they “write” to a specifically and clearly sanctioned spec script teleplay written for limited professional purposes. They are not even close to the same thing.

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  13. Mr. Saxelid,
    Since you seem to support TV spec script writing because it’s written with tacit permission and for profit, I assume you feel that it is not “unimaginative, lazy and stupid” despite the fact that it’s derivative and the characters and settings belong to someone else. But someone else, who writes Jane Austen fanfic purely for personal fun and entertainment, is? That reasoning seems a bit hypocritical, and doesn’t seem to be relevant to either the legal status or the ethics of derivative writing. After all, in the words of Theodore Sturgeon, “90% of everything is crud.” I imagine that also applies to most of the spec scripts submitted to studios.
    Anonymous said:
    “There have been many authors (and Lee has listed some of them elsewhere in the fanfic debate on his blog) who have come out publicly and said they do not approve of fanfic.”
    There are also fans and fan authors who respect that and avoid using or reading material based on those authors’ work. “Fanfic writers” are not a uniform group. To use an analogy, if I sell TVs does the fact that the guy in the store next to mine sells stolen TVs mean that I am also a criminal? After all, we both sell electronics.
    In addition, I notice you have not mentioned anything about authors/creators who have come out with public statements that they either don’t mind or even encourage fan writing. Are fans to be faulted for taking them at their word? The studios and networks may invite writers to submit spec scripts, but that doesn’t mean those scripts are not infringing on copyright (which they are), only that there is an industry understanding that the creators want people to submit new ideas and won’t sue unless someone tries to make an independent profit. Unlike trademark, copyright doesn’t need to be defended. So when is it ethical to borrow ideas?

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  14. Mr. Saxelid,
    Since you seem to support TV spec script writing because it’s written with tacit permission and for profit, I assume you feel that it is not “unimaginative, lazy and stupid” despite the fact that it’s derivative and the characters and settings belong to someone else. But someone else, who writes Jane Austen fanfic purely for personal fun and entertainment, is? That reasoning seems a bit hypocritical, and doesn’t seem to be relevant to either the legal status or the ethics of derivative writing. After all, in the words of Theodore Sturgeon, “90% of everything is crud.” I imagine that also applies to most of the spec scripts submitted to studios.
    And what your response completely ignores (not surprising, really) is that spec scripts are written strictly for professional reasons. To show potential employers that the writer can deliver a script for a produced series. Fanfic is not. There is a very clear line, even if those who argue in its favor like to muddy the waters with meaningless distractions from the point.

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  15. Mr. Saxelid,
    What does the creativity or effort put into the work have to do with it’s intended purpose? By calling fanfic “unimaginative, lazy and stupid” you were commenting on it’s quality, not it’s legality or morality. Your remarks were muddying the waters, not mine.

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  16. Okay, let’s remove this mythical distraction of “quality” from the equation entirely and go for intended purpose.
    Spec scripts exist for the sole purpose of showing that a writer is capable of doing the job that s/he wishes to be hired to do. Fan fic has no purpose other than self gratification. The line that permenantly separates the two is quite clear to me.

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  17. You know what is so fascinating about this arguement? Not a single NY press has announced “Please feel free to write fan fiction of all of our author’s work!” The people who scream that it is legal and demand that authors bow down to the will of the fandom are the fandom. You show me someone who screams for the legality of fan fiction and I’ll show you a person with a vast collection of star wars action figures and zero appreciation for the sanctity of the creative process, that indelible organic process by which real authors create work. You want to write fan fiction? Go ahead, just don’t stick it on the internet and call yourself an author. Somewhere Lori Jareo beats on, I assure you.

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  18. Mr. Saxelid,
    Copyright protection doesn’t have a special exclusion for job interviews any more than it does for amateur writing.
    In the example you used, both parties are infringing on the copyright of the creator. Unless a spec script was _specifically_ licensed by the copyright holder before the writer showed it to anyone (including the writer’s agent), then the tacit permission of the studio for agents to float scripts for writers is no more valid under law than an author who says publicly that they don’t mind fans writing fiction based off their work. So why do you argue that one is right and the other is wrong? Both are creating derivative works so apparently just using someone else’s ideas is not inherently wrong. Both have the tacit permission of the author/creator, so the fact that they are still technically breaking the law can apparently be tolerated. Neither the TV writer nor the fanfic writer can independently profit from the work, which is why copyright protection exists, so that doesn’t seem to be an objection.
    In my opinion, fanfiction that is based on material by an author who has categorically said that he/she does not give permission for fan writing is on much more shaky ethical ground. Similarly, work based off an author who has not expressed an opinion one way or another. At that point it’s a matter of whether fan works hurt the ability of the author/creator to profit from their work and that is not only much harder to determine and it’s not clear that the average fan writer is qualified to make that determination herself. She is probably not aware of all the ins and outs of publishing/TV production/movie making and therefore can’t judge the impact that her writing will have.

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  19. I think you’re wrong. I think your logic is deeply flawed. Once again, you ignore the circumstance and end result. Spec scripts are not written for public distribtion. They are done for a select audience to show that a the submitting writer is capable of doing the job they are applying for. What these so-called “amateur writers” are doing is posting non-original work in a public forum for the world to see. Those are two very different circumstances and to place them on an equal level is almost laughable.

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  20. Mr. Saxelid,
    I guess I don’t understand why you think that the size and scope of the publishing venue trumps the author’s publicly stated opinion or permission on derivative work, especially if neither the fan author or the TV writer is profiting from the work. I’m also not sure why you bring up the originality of the work since as far as I can tell it is only relevant in that both fanfic and spec scripts are covered by the original creator’s copyright.

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  21. One final time on this particular issue, then I’ll walk away. A spec script has no true “audience,” they are nothing more than writing samples meant to show a writer’s ability to work within a particular format. That they will be able to capture and present the particular formula of a show. That is a far cry from what fan fiction writers do. They “publish” their non-original work in a forum that allows anybody in the world to read it. If there is one thing that these “amateur writers” do profit from, it is the attention that they receive. It’s attention I don’t think they deserve. Which is why I ignore it. I don’t read fan fic.
    I do think that the technology that allows everybody in the world to almost instantly communicate with each other has allowed fan fiction to, at the moment, rocket past the ability of copyright owners to properly monitor infringement matters. On one level, no one wants to anger the cash cow that is fandom, on another, someone will eventually have to take the step of saying to a fan community, “Look folks, we create it, you just enjoy it, and that’s all.”
    Of course, that will be ignored and things will go on the way they are right now, with people claiming to have a right to play with someone else’s toys simply because they wish it to be so.

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  22. >>I assume you meant “and distribute”, not “or”, because giving it to your agent *is* publishing. Your agent giving it to *anybody* else is also publishing.<< Paul, Interesting. I should consider myself published then since I "gave" my writing to agents and publishers for consideration. And all my writing friends are also published since their agents gave their stuff to publishers.

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  23. Mr. Goldberg said:
    What about the AUTHORS??? What gives “fandom” the right to decide how an author’s characters are used?…The decision about how a writer’s characters and imaginary worlds are used should be up to the WRITER not the reader or viewer.
    And Mr. Saxelid said:
    someone will eventually have to take the step of saying to a fan community,”Look folks, we create it, you just enjoy it, and that’s all.”
    These, and many other comments in this thread, indicate to me that there is some misapprehension that copyright exists to protect an author’s ideas from being used in a way that they don’t like. That’s not true. In fact, parody of the work is specifically excluded from the protection. US law is also fairly specific about the fact that the author does not have some sort of moral right to the work itself. If they did, the public domain wouldn’t exist.
    Copyright exists in order to protect the author’s right to _profit_ from their original ideas. The way that the law has been enacted doesn’t recognize a difference between for-profit and non-profit, but taking advantage of the profit motive to encourage creative work is clearly the motive behind the law. Ethically, though not legally, derivative work that is not for profit and which doesn’t hurt the original author’s ability to profit from the work is different than derivative work that is used for profit.
    Mr. Saxelid objected that credit and recogniton of other fans does constitute profit, which is a valid point. But that comes from the original creator’s right to profit, not some sort of metaphysical ownership of the ideas. I don’t happen to agree; admiration is not the same as cold hard cash and, in any event, the majority of fanfic writers are very careful to give credit to the original creator. Unlike profits, credit and recognition is not a zero-sum game.

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  24. I’ve Been Fanficced

    I was a writer/producer on SEAQUEST 2032, which was cancelled mid-way through production of its third season, though scripts were ordered for several more episodes. William Rabkin and I wrote one of those scripts, which was entitled About Face, and

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  25. I think my friend bryley said it best:
    Fanfiction is writen by fans for fans it’s not ment in bad way. The writers I read write online for free. And do it for the love of writing thats all.For me it’s a way of writing down new look on how things should be instead of the writer way of seeing it. And if others like to read it and reply.Well for me that’s how it is a lot what if’s for the world to see writen those who love the most.
    I did look this up:
    http://www.wacklepedia.com/f/fa/fan_fiction.html
    I write fanfiction and will always do so.
    I think bryley’s wright Fanfiction is writen by fans for fans. So if you don’t like it stay away from our communites and off our sites.
    Many complain about Fanfiction.nst Adult fanficton and say it noting rape fic’s and stories on chan. Why are you even looking? I write slash and I state up front I do not own said book or movie. And make no money off them.
    My writings are pure fantasy are for other fanfiction lovers not for people like you!Fandom is too large to be push back or held down!

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  26. Kyler, you’d be better off learning how to write in standard English before embarking on your next Harry/Draco/Spock love triangle fic. I don’t mean to belittle your skills as a wordsmith or as the voice of fandom, but I pray to God that you’re actually a 13 year old from Thailand who is just trying out his English skills and not an actual adult.
    Of course, I did find this very persuasive: “Many complain about Fanfiction.nst Adult fanficton and say it noting rape fic’s and stories on chan. Why are you even looking? I write slash and I state up front I do not own said book or movie.” Yes, yes, indeed. I see your point.

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  27. Harry/Draco/Spock Huh? I have never written any thing like that number one. Number Two I have a beta writer to check my work before it’s posted any where.
    I think you need check you facts before you start attacking me.I do nothing with Spock I mean ever! I am not even in to that fandom gross! Harry Potter is cool though it’s one my favorite’s.
    http://daylan-rayne.livejournal.com/

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  28. If Kyler and the guy who wrote the SeaQuest fanfic represent the intelligence and personality of the readers and writers of fanfiction, Lee can rest his case. They have made Lee’s point for him better than he ever could!

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  29. Kyler quotes from Wikipedia as if it’s the Encyclopedia Brittanica…which, I’d wager, she’d find too difficult to read.
    “Number Two I have a beta writer to check my work before it’s posted any where.
    I think you need check you facts before you start attacking me.”
    I think you and your “beta writer” need to learn basic English grammer (God, I hope English is your second language…the alternative is too pathetic and frightening to consider).
    Can you imagine what this person’s stories must be like? He can’t even write a coherent sentence, much less make a persuasive argument of any kind.
    If this represents what the writers and readership of fanfiction are like, it’s truly sad….and frightening. Fanfiction is obviously literature for the illiterate by the illiterate.
    Kyler is what our children will be like if Republicans continue to run our country. Remember this come election time.

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  30. I just clicked Kyler’s name on his comment and got this LJ profile:
    “about me:
    I’m a homosexual male(Bi-sexual)my name is Kyler Kelly I’m Irish and Amrican-Indian(Crow)
    I read slash and het! Favorites things Reading and wirting and any time with family
    and friends :D”
    Here’s an excerpt from one of his Harry Potter slash stories:
    Professor Severus Snape was not happy his summer was over. It had been far
    too short, especially with another year of Potter to deal with. Why his
    heart raced at that thought confused and angered him. “I won’t let him
    affect me,” he snarled under his breath as he waited for sleep to come.
    He felt his pulse race faster at the thought of green eyes and an easy
    smile . . . and that slender youthful form. Harry was not a child anymore
    that were certain.
    http://www.xanga.com/daylan_rayne
    You can read the rest at your own peril…it’s even more painfully inept. This is a perfect example of the kind of writing fanficcers are trying to protect. They’re right. Screw copyright. We need more of this shit.

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  31. Kyler quotes from Wikipedia as if it’s the Encyclopedia Brittanica…which, I’d wager, she’d find too difficult to read.
    RE:
    Again your guilty of not checking your facts. So read and read it again if you need to! But please get it straight.
    I’m a male age 28 my bio is on my lj.
    And I picked Wikipedia because it a genaral
    source of knowledge that most people use it.
    It not the only thing I’ve found on the sub-ject.
    And the fic:”The Light”
    http://www.xanga.com/daylan_rayne/520642028/item.html
    And it has been betaed. But the Darry story has not been betaed yet I’m afraid. My friend Mconner is looking at that for me.
    The Xanga account is for my recommendations for art and fiction mostly fan based.It also has a few of my works in progress. And I have more than one xanga account *grins*.

    Reply
  32. Actually, people with Kyler’s spelling and grammar are often mocked in the fanfiction community. But literate fanfiction writers won’t waste their time on this blog. The people here only want to bash fanfiction, not discuss it.

    Reply
  33. *Shakes-head* I’m writing as a hobby and do
    not post what write on fanfiction.net. My
    prpblems with dyslexia prevent it.
    Secondly no one in my fandom has ever mocked me cause they understand. I even know a few editors so your argument holds no ground for me.
    And stuping so low as to name calling and picking apart others work may make you feel all BIG AND BAD. But I find it a petty and unfouned.
    The people here only want to bash fanfiction, not discuss it.
    But this I actually do agree with no sarcasm
    intended I say what I mean unlike some peolpe. And more importanly I leave my name and links unlike some cowardly posters above.Who want to bash but are afraid to be honest about who you are. That alone is totaly sad.

    Reply
  34. Re: The comments in response to kyler’s posts.
    I’m pretty sure that I could find fiction on the Internet that is also awful, trite, un-grammatical, badly spelled, but original. I generally try to refrain from assuming that all original fiction writers are equally bad and evaluate them on their own merits.

    Reply
  35. I generally try to refrain from assuming that all original fiction writers are equally bad and evaluate them on their own merits.
    re:
    I’m not speaking to all novelist or original fiction writers. Merly the
    one or ones who commented on this
    atticle.
    I have actually have collaborated on a few original stories myself. I never claimed to be the voice of fanfictin. I was merly commenting on what this article and others like it posted here.
    I have been reading them for years now. They are becoming more malicious as time goes on. So I gave my opinion and quoted a
    friend so I don’t get what your saying.

    Reply
  36. Mr. Kyler,
    If you re-read my post you will see that I did not write that in response to your posts. I was addressing those who posted comments here mocking all fanfic as a result of your posts. I stated no opinion one way or another on your writing. I merely wanted people to realize, as you said, that you do not represent all fanfic writers.

    Reply
  37. Kyler, are you aware that John Irving and Richard Ford are dyslexic, too? That’s one thing in common you share, other than the fact that two of you are world famous, best selling authors and one of you writes fan fiction about ass fucking Snape.

    Reply
  38. When people question the virtue of fanfic, one need not look any further than authors such as William Shakespeare. He took many stories that already existed in other forms (history, mythology) and turned them into pop culture.
    People remake Shakespeare into modern versions all of the time. The movies 10 Things I Hate About You and O have more in common than Julia Styles, they are both basically fanfiction forms of Shakespeare’s plays. It’s not like anyone asked Will if he wanted things to play out like this.
    Tons of “fanfic” stories have been published. The one I can think of off the top of my head is “Lo’s Diary,” which is a retelling of Lolita from the point of view of Lolita.
    The oldest “fanfic” example I can think of right now is The Aeneid. Vergil took the story of heroes from the Trojan War, from the Iliad and Odyssey, and spun it into the origins of Rome, adding in propaganda to make the emperor Augustus look good.
    Ridiculously strict intellectual property rights are a new, modern thing. People like Anne Rice have no problem using them to their advantage to attack fanfic writers on the internet, but ignore the heart of them by writing their own fanfic. What would you call her derivative story about Jesus?
    Old stories didn’t belong to their creators, they belonged to the imaginations of everyone who knew them. It seems to me that writers are getting a tad greedy. Once the story leaves your hands and is in someone else’s, it’s in their mind and their imagination to do what they will. As long as we’ve had civilization, stories have morphed with the audiences’ imaginations. Why should it stop now? Because writers are apparently ignorant of the history of storytelling?

    Reply
  39. Kyler, are you aware that John Irving and Richard Ford are dyslexic, too? That’s one thing in common you share,other than the fact that two of you are world famous, best selling authors and one of you writes fan fiction about ass fucking Snape.
    I only commented on my problems with dyslexia to show my own limits. I was unaware that these writer’s were also
    dyslexic. And so far I haven’t written anything about ass fucking Snape yet!
    Writing where it be orignal or fanfictoin
    helps me exercise my mind.And improves my memory witch suffers form my problems dyslexia.

    Reply
  40. Sure it’s illegal, but who’s going to stop it? You’re just blowing your whistle like a traffic cop in the middle of the Indy 500. Have fun, I guess.

    Reply
  41. Hmm?
    I wonder if this has anything to do with Fanfiction.net’s rule about not posting fics that are in script format…
    Maybe that’s why Lee is so mad.
    I’m sorry to all the ‘FICS AND SPEC SCRIPTS ARE NOT THE SAME!’ people, but you are a bunch of hypocrites.
    Kyler writes what’s called ‘badfic’. And for those thinking places that mock or complain about it don’t exist, I don’t think you are even looking for them.

    Reply
  42. For one thing, Quinctia is a smart cookie.
    For another, I deeply hope that not everyone is taking Kyler as the ideal example of a ficcer.
    Their are diffrent levels of quality in fanfiction, diffrent levels of legality (people write fanfiction for all sorts of things, and often the source *is* under fair use/public domain/lax copyright laws), and diffrent levels of maturity. Not everyone writing adult fanfiction is writing bad porn, and not all fanfiction is adult (though I have noticed a trend towards adult themes because it’s “cool”).
    Some of the best stories I’ve read have rivaled published works in quality– certainly rivaled the teenychick stuff I’m supposed to be reading, like Bridget Jones’ Diary, and some of it rivals the stuff I do read, the classic scifi and fantasy and manga.
    Fanworks are not innately inferior just because of legal questionability (which people DO realize, but out hobby is a harmless one), nor do they show immaturity on the part of the authour. I would quote some of my favorite works to you, even, except that I’m afraid of attacks on the authours; however, I would like to point out the communitie fanficrants on Livejournal. Look around for a bit and you’ll understand why.

    Reply
  43. When are you fanficcers going to realize that Lee is never going to be swayed to ‘your’ side and the more you flap your lips the less he is going to listen?
    Leave him alone. If you want to write fanfic, write fanfic. Prove its efficacy to turn a profit for the author by helping to keep those authors who turn blind eyes to fanfic or who are smart enough to realize there is money to be made from the fans who love their stuff enough to have a fanfic fandom rise around it*** or even perhaps, having new fans converted after reading the fanfic that has arisen out a love for the source, in business and writing more.
    While we’re tilting at windmills, fanfic opponents, you might want to consider going after Amazon.com and second-hand book sellers who are profiting off the books of authors by reselling them, with no money going back to the author (or perhaps more correctly) the publisher.
    It seems to me these second-hand dealers are more damaging to the bottom line than the fanficcers who will rush out and buy their -own copy of the book- because they read some really good fanfiction about it.
    ***I refer you to The Grantville Gazette by Eric Flint.
    From the editor’s preface, somewhat snipped down for length:
    “Soon enough, the discussion [of 1632 on the publisher’s messageboard] becan generating something called “fanfic,” stories written in the setting by fans of the series. A number of these, in my opinion, were good enough to be published professionally. And a number of them were–as part of an anthology, Ring of Fire, which was published by Baen books in January, 2004. […] Ring of Fire has been selling quite well since it came out, and I’m putting together a second anthology similar to it…”
    (attention to above referenced drawn from http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_rant/77633.html )
    The commentor would like to point out that discussion in the community on JF has prompted her to go out and buy the books for herself. From a bookstore and not a second-hand seller.
    …go figure.

    Reply
  44. Anyone dare try Holden Caulfield fanfic? There’s a test for you. And if I see it, I’ll send it to the old man myself.
    Are you kidding? Kinsella wrote about Salinger HIMSELF. And sent him into the afterlife. And that’s not RPF? I didn’t see any expressed permission for that.
    But hey, I guess it’s all okay if you’re being paid for it. Because, you know, the comic book writers never write someone else’s creations. And Lee always, always writes one-hundred percent original characters completely of his own devising.
    Oh, wait.

    Reply
  45. Mousie,
    It would never cross my mind to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER or MONK books on my own. I much prefer writing entirely original work. But as a professional writer, that isn’t always possible. The only reason I’m writing those characters is because I was asked to do so by the rights-holders. I would never do so otherwise.
    I would also much prefer writing and producing TV shows that I’ve created. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened yet. But I regularly work on shows that were not my creation because I am asked to do so by the people who created or own the characters. There’s a huge ethical and legal difference between writing about characters you didn’t create with the consent of the rights-holders and doing so without consent. One is legal and ethically correct… the other is illegal and unethical. It’s that simple.
    Lee

    Reply
  46. And no, I’m not going to tell you who, because my attorney would get very pissy with me.
    What I still do not understand about this brouhaha is simply this: Why do you care? You go on and on and on at great (seemingly endless) length about how fan fiction authors are the scum of the earth, childish, untalented, etc., etc., etc. But I’ve yet to see anything that explains to me why this should be so important to you. Are there people writing said fiction about your characters? Because that’s really the only reason I could imagine for the way this bee gets up your butt so thoroughly.
    For all the legal mumbo-jumbo, you’re still in the positiong of haranguing people who aren’t hurting you, and hurling epithets at people who are simply enjoying themselves without hurting anyone. The original authors? Please. The people writing fan fiction are also BUYING ALL OUR BOOKS. Or didn’t you notice the “fan” in “fan fiction?”
    As much as I love writing, and my characters, and the ability to make a living at it, I’m not interested in draconian laws that mandate no one in the future history of the earth ever writing anything about my characters but me. If people like my stories enough to want to explore them by writing things and swapping them on the internet, fine by me. So long as they don’t claim they invented them (and I’ve yet to see a single fan fiction writer who has ever claimed this, EVER), and they’re not making money off me, why shoudl I care? Especially since, as has been argued here already, fan fiction tends to drive people towards the original works, not away from them.
    As far as I can tell, you’re all just dogs in the manger. Let the fans have their fun, I say. So long as everyone acts reasonably, I can’t see anything wrong with it.

    Reply
  47. Mr. Goldberg wrote:
    “There’s a huge ethical and legal difference between writing about characters you didn’t create with the consent of the rights-holders and doing so without consent.”
    So we all get the legal difference (that’s been hashed out – though not everyone agrees on the conclusions) but you still haven’t explained _why_, in your opinion, there’s an ethical difference between writing derivative work with or without the original creator’s approval, if one isn’t making a profit. Strangely enough, just saying that it’s so doesn’t make it true.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m getting the impression that you are of the opinion that the “creators” have some sort of mystical ownership over their characters, settings and ideas that shouldn’t be violated. If that’s true I can only reply that you are entitled to your religion but the rest of us are not required to share it.
    Copyright law is a modern social construction that protects profit, not ideas. It’s also a flawed construction.

    Reply
  48. Hello Lee,
    Though you probably don’t recognise my chosen name, you and I have had this discussion before, and previously you left one of my questions unanswered. As the site in question appears to be more down than up these days, I thought I might put the question to you again after you abandoned the fight.
    ‘There’s a huge ethical and legal difference between writing about characters you didn’t create with the consent of the rights-holders and doing so without consent’
    What about fanfiction created with the consent of the original author or copyright holder? It’s as easy for me to create a list of authors who have approved fanfiction of their works as it is for you to create a list of authors who have rejected it.
    You seem more than willing to heap scorn on the one, but seem unwilling to adress the other.
    I await your answer with something less than bated breath.

    Reply
  49. Lightspeed,
    I’ve addressed that question here a thousand times before. If an author or rights-holder has clearly approved fanfiction based on his work (and by that, I don’t mean they haven’t sent out cease-and-desist letters, which some fanficcers inanely take as an implied endorsement), then I have no problem with it. In fact, I encourage ALL fanfiction writers to ask authors or the rights-holders for their consent…it’s a common sense solution and simply the right thing to do. But fanfiction writers don’t, because they are terrified of being told “no.” And, as many fanfiction writers have stated here again and again, they don’t give a damn what the author or rights-holder thinks. JK Rowling, for example, has said she has no problem with Potter fanfic, as long as it’s not sexual — so how do the fans thank her for her consent? By writing Harry/Snape/Ron slash stories by the thousands.
    Lee

    Reply
  50. Actually, I believe this was the key point!
    There is plainly a very real risk that impressionable children, who of course comprise the principal readership of the Harry Potter books, will be directed (e.g. by a search engine result) to your sexually explicit web site, which you will appreciate most right-minded people would consider wholly inappropriate for minors. Plainly the warnings to the effect that children under 18 should not access your website do not in fact prevent minors from doing so. Indeed, such warnings may well serve simply to entice teenagers to your site.
    After this to this RestrictedSection.org
    had this to say.
    Hello, and welcome to the Restricted Section. In the wake of fanfiction.net’s decision to remove all NC-17 content, a group of Harry Potter fanfiction authors decided to open a new archive devoted to adult Potterfic. This means that this site is strictly for people over the age of 18. If you are underage, perhaps the The Leaky Cauldron or FictionAlley would be more to your liking.
    If you are underage, or do not wish to read the stories in this archive, please Leave By Clicking Here.
    It was more about the strong sexual content and JK Rowlings’ fear that children would stumble across it. that caused most archvies have removed the NC-17 fic’s or put under password protection.
    and not as you say..
    JK Rowling, for example, has said she has no problem with Potter fanfic, as long as it’s not sexual — so how do the fans thank her for her consent? By writing Harry/Snape/Ron slash stories by the thousands
    I would strongly disagree with you on that.

    Reply
  51. To prove my last statement I refer you to
    a news post.
    In a message posted to
    http://www.wizardnews.com
    But is fan fiction a legitimate literary genre or is it just plagiarism? Well, it is not a prerequisite, but many writers add a disclaimer before posting their stories on mailing lists. They don’t own the characters, nor the plot.
    Yet JK Rowling’s literary agent, for instance, has asked some internet service providers and website operators to remove any pornographic fanfic based on Harry Potter, simply because children would be able to access it. But this is an issue about internet policing rather than the act of writing itself. In fact, a representative for Rowling’s agent states that “the general feeling is one of flattery” – as long as it’s clear that the author isn’t JK Rowling.
    Whatever you think of it, although fanfic was once a subculture, it is now pretty mainstream. It connects people and forms communities. And it says something about our celebrity-obsessed society that we escape from it only to idolise fictional characters.
    And as to literary merit, well, when you trawl some of the stories on the net, you’d think that Mills & Boon need never go out of business. But there is also a lot of talent out there – people too shy to go to publishers with their own material. However, while they might be getting good at stylistic exercises, a distinctive authorial voice is surely the key to good writing. Lucy Leveugle
    found here
    http://www.hpana.com/news.17752.51.html
    and here
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4814875-103680,00.html

    Reply
  52. Kyler–Not only do you NOT know how to write, you apparently don’t know how to read, either. This is what Rowling’s lawyers said:
    Harry Potter adult fan fiction
    We are a firm of solicitors (attorneys) in London. We have been consulted by our client, Christopher Little Literary Agency, on behalf of Ms. J K Rowling, and by our client Warner Bros, in connection with the Harry Potter adult fan fiction made available by you at URL http://www.restrictedsection.org/splash.html (see enclosed screenshot).
    As you are aware, Ms. Rowling is the author of the Harry Potter books. Ms. Rowling therefore owns the copyright in the Harry Potter books. The sexually explicit content of the fan fiction available at http://www.restrictedsection.org, which is plainly based on characters and other elements of the fictional world created by Ms. Rowling in the Harry Potter books, is a matter of serious concern to our client. In addition, our client Warner Bros, which owns the film and merchandising rights to the children’s series of Harry Potter books, is concerned to protect the integrity of its Harry Potter properties. For the avoidance of doubt, our clients make no complaint about innocent fan fiction written by genuine Harry Potter fans.
    There is plainly a very real risk that impressionable children, who of course comprise the principal readership of the Harry Potter books, will be directed (e.g. by a search engine result) to your sexually explicit web site, which you will appreciate most right-minded people would consider wholly inappropriate for minors. Plainly the warnings to the effect that children under 18 should not access your website do not in fact prevent minors from doing so. Indeed, such warnings may well serve simply to entice teenagers to your site.
    In the circumstances, our clients therefore request you to remove all such material and cease making it available on the internet or by any other means. Would you please let us have your continuation that you will do so by no later than 18:00 GMT on Friday, 20 January 2003.

    Reply
  53. lost_erizo wrote: “you still haven’t explained _why_, in your opinion, there’s an ethical difference between writing derivative work with or without the original creator’s approval, if one isn’t making a profit.”
    Not only has Lee not explained that in this debate, he’s consistently failed to explain it in the three (?) years I’ve been participating in discussions on this subject with him.
    Please, Lee, (questions of artistic merit and copyright infringement aside these are not points of ethics) why is “Wide Sargasso Sea” ethically acceptable and fanfiction not?

    Reply
  54. I believe the bottom line is who is making the bucks. Even in the case of fanfic it is still the author and publisher of the original work making the profit.
    The only piece of fanfic I have ever written was a parody involving Legolas and Frodo. Strange to note parody fanfic is legal since it generally makes fun of either the original work, or in my case makes fun of fanfic itself. And the same case does apply, I made no money from the parody nor did I claim to have invented the original characters.
    In the case of JK Rowling, yes I can see why that she would not want adult fanfic because her stories are for children. I believe she has every right to make that request because she is the author. As does Anne Rice and other authors who do not want fan fic written with their characters.
    Personally I respect that. I wish others would as well, but I’m not going to get into heavy duty arguments on the matter because in the end the profit still goes to the writer and not the fan fic writer. And I’m really not going to draw out any legal guns on it.
    Personally as an author with my own original works, I have no problem with anybody else writing fanfic based on my works. I see no harm in fanfic since again I’m still making the profit from the original work. There are two sides to this, and it more looks like neither side is seeing anything but what they want to. And yes, that includes you, Mr. Goldberg.

    Reply
  55. One difference is that with most derivative work, copywrite has been lost (this isn’t true for all, just some — which is why the woman who wrote The Wind Done Gone was sued by Margaret Mitchell’s estate, but won on the basis of satire and parody, as I recall, or something very similar) and so it is free game. Derivative work also is typically for more respectful of the source material — this isn’t a question of writing talent, of which in fan fiction I see very little (perhaps because writers with real talent prefer not to write Babylon 5 fan fiction) and write more in the tradition of the work than in the tradition they wish of the work. The Great Gatsby may well be Great Expectations fan fiction, as might Empire Falls by Richard Russo. Shoot, John Iriving admits that A Prayer For Owen Meany is directly inspired by Robertson Davies’ Fifth Business and Richard Ford says that The Sportswriter was inspired by Walker Piercy’s The Moviegoer. The difference is that each writer created their worlds, fresh and new, and didn’t do it by aping the style of the writer who inspired them or to whom the work is derived from.
    The end result of fan fiction is not how ethically difficult it is to defend, but how generally awful it is to read. As an avid reader of Mr. Goldberg’s blog, I’ve gone out and read some of the things out there to see what he’s so angry about and what I’ve found is that much of the fan fiction out there is turgid, and if it’s not turgid, it’s repulsive, and if it’s neither of the two it is simply sophomoric. Much of it is simply poorly crafted, which is odd given that all the hard parts of writing — creating characters, creating the worlds — is handed to the writers. You do the original work no justice by sullying it with your crappy prose. If anything, fan fiction shows just how much better most published writers are than the ones who sit in the stands complaining that they could do it better and then go about creating their own canon.

    Reply
  56. Cavenaugh,
    The fact that it is so poorly crafted tells a lot. Because a lot of it is written by fans who fantasize about the characters written by the author. Thus the author of fanfic will place those characters in a fantasy world that generally includes themselves as the ‘love interest’. Or they are exploring avenues the original author didn’t. Which sometimes can be intriguing to read, though overall most is poorly written.
    Also a large portion is written by young people. Again with the fantasizing about being Harry Potter’s true love, or Legolas, or ad nauseum.
    Most fan fic is read by friends of the fanfic writer or fans of the original work. Simply as enjoyment and nothing else really. As to why some enjoy it, I can’t answer. But it is done for someone’s enjoyment.

    Reply
  57. Kyler–Not only do you NOT know how to write, you apparently don’t know how to read, either. This is what Rowling’s lawyers said:
    RE: This must be the same no-name who’s
    been acttacking me without checking his or her facts.
    My reply was based more so on this biased
    statement
    “JK Rowling, for example, has said she has no problem with Potter fanfic, as long as it’s not sexual — so how do the fans thank her for her consent? By writing Harry/Snape/Ron slash stories by the thousands.”
    Lee
    or this..
    “She’s okay with fanfic but is ready to go after people who write sexually explicit material using her characters. That should serve as a warning to anyone who thinks that writing about Harry and Ron exploring the magical delights of anal sex is “fair use.”
    Leaving one to believe Ms. J K Rowling
    dosn’t want anyone to slash or write any-thing sexual. Whitch is not what she or her Lawyers said in their reply to the news,
    Yet JK Rowling’s literary agent, for instance, has asked some internet service providers and website operators to remove any pornographic fanfic based on Harry Potter, simply because children would be able to access it. But this is an issue about internet policing rather than the act of writing itself. In fact, a
    representative for Rowling’s agent states that “the general feeling is one of
    flattery” – as long as it’s clear that the author isn’t JK Rowling.
    Second, I AM DYSLEXIC I do try to remember
    grammer and spelling. But I well not apologize because you don’t check your facts before you attack. and I was not attacking Lee only disagreeing with his opionion. On why Miss Rowling had some archives remove or put strong sexual stories (NC-17 or Porn) under password protection. He has his opinion and I have mine. And I mostly rec Hp stories ant art and other fandoms. Sure if you look around you’ll find a few thing I wrote or collaborated on.
    my hp rec’s http://www.xanga.com/daylan_rayne

    Reply
  58. I Have Parade, Lee Has Fan Fiction

    My brother, in his ongoing quest to alienate those who would never read him anyway (though I suppose a few of them would watch his shows, provided he did another sci-fi show), has once again tweaked the writers of fan

    Reply
  59. Cavenaugh,

    perhaps because writers with real talent prefer not to write Babylon 5 fan fiction

    No, but they do apparently write Xena fanfiction. At least one person who wrote large amounts of Xena fanfiction was highly enough regarded that she eventually made it onto the staff of the show and became a professional Xena writer.
    Lee, I do appreciate your answer to my question.

    Reply
  60. Cavenaugh wrote: “Much of it is simply poorly crafted,”
    The best fanfiction is very good…the worst is very bad indeed, but I think you’re not comparing like with like, here. You can’t compare fanfic (unedited when published on the web – at best it has been “beta-read” by a fellow fan) with published works.
    Probably the best comparison is with the ‘slush pile’ sent to the average publisher or agent. I’m sure they have some stories to tell!
    You know, I’ve read some crap on the shelves of my local bookshop – sometimes I wonder how this rubbish ever got past an editor in order to see print. But I don’t on that evidence then assme that all modern fiction is crap.

    Reply
  61. Mr. Cavenaugh wrote:
    “…what I’ve found is that much of the fan fiction out there is turgid, and if it’s not turgid, it’s repulsive, and if it’s neither of the two it is simply sophomoric. …You do the original work no justice by sullying it with your crappy prose.”
    When it comes to the quality of fanfic, I stand by my previous statement about Sturgeon’s Law. I’ve read some that is very good, and a few that were excellent, but usually I find those through reviews and recommendations since I have no desire to wade through the pile of trash over at the Pit.
    Someone commenting in John Scalzi’s blog actually made an interesting point about quality. The more out of character, AU, craptastic or ridiculous the fanfic, the less it’s actually drawing from the original source and so arguably the less it’s likely to be in actual or virtual competition with the original author’s work. Therefore, it’s actually on safer ground in some ways than fanfic that is actually well written and true to the style, tone or “canon” of the original. If nothing else, the more extreme stories could probably qualify as parody.
    I think it’s an interesting paradox, myself.

    Reply
  62. Hello; I’ve stumbled into this whole conversation by chance, and wish to add my two cents. Whether that’s perceived as valuable or not– well, that’s up for grabs.
    I consider myself a writer for a few basic reasons: I love doing it, I’ll always do it, and I get depressed when I’m NOT doing it. I have written original fiction since I was about twelve years old; not that my twelve year old self was a fantastic writer, but I’ve improved since then (I’m thirty now).
    About a year and a half ago I discovered fanfiction; I was immediately intrigued by it, as the characters involved were ones I’d grown a huge interest in. I decided to write it myself. I took a break from my original work to do so.
    Because of the way ff works, there’s no pressure. That isn’t to say there isn’t responsibility to uphold the general laws of writing, such as grammar/spelling/etc., but since starting this venture I’ve found that my writing has GREATLY improved. The communities, journals and whatever else that I’ve been involved in have given me excellent, undying support. I’ve learned a lot from this experience, and have looked back on my original work and said “Wow… what sophomoric crap.” Fanfiction helped me hone in on many of my flaws and has made me a much better writer, being that I never felt pressure. It’s been enjoyable and fun for me to do this.
    I DO write sexually explicit work with other’s ideas. I DO tell people what I do, because I’m not ashamed of it; my own mother even knows what I do, and has read some of my stuff. I AM proud of the way my writing improved through writing fanfiction, and I won’t be told that there’s no way it could have helped me. It did. I’m still trying my best to get better at it all.
    If the person(s) who came UP with the original ideas (in my case, the movie director/creator/etc.) either came out to the public pleading for the ff to stop, or told me directly, perhaps I would take them seriously enough to not post my stuff publicly, at least. Yet I also know that I would feel flattered if someone took MY original work (which I hope to publish… SOMEday… ;)) and had fun with it.
    It also needs to be considered that while an author/director/etc.’s work is their work, their fame is directly linked to the success it gains FROM the fanbase. Does this mean that the fans then own that person and their creative process? No– but some people honestly feel it is a way to express their feelings and love FOR that work, and mean absolutely no malicious intent.
    While I am trying to present myself in a well-rounded manner, I will say that I’m dismayed at your blanketing type of remarks towards fanfiction as a whole. Most people will never be published and/or write out of hobby. Some people don’t have huge scores of ideas but want to convey something. If their muse lies in a song or movie or whatever strikes them, I DO find it harmless for someone to extend their creativity to something that already exists. I myself do not profit or make any sort of “I’m the best writer” declarations with my fanfic. I do what I do because it’s enjoyable… and I believe I do it well. Just because it’s someone else’s idea I’m working with doesn’t discount my creativity or make me an outright ‘bad writer’.
    Perhaps you’ll ignore this or think me some sort of idiot, and that’s okay. I believe in what I believe, and I’m stating it here where I have the right to convey my beliefs. You have every right to disagree or even not *like* me. But I refuse to generalize ANY sort of genre, hobby or whatever other relatively innocent creative form arises. As a writer/artist, it would be an elitist thing to do. It would mean that I think “I’m better than you” or “What I do is good; what you do is wrong” not my right to do that.

    Reply
  63. Hi Veronica,
    What you basically seem to be saying is that you’re doing it for fun; if you’re prepared to respect the author’s request not to post stuff should that situation come up, then you’re clearly not being a jerk about it, and good for you – I don’t think many people would have a problem that. (And I’m more on the anti side than you.)
    Just a point, though – you say you don’t want to be ‘elitist’. Isn’t art inherently elitist? It’s all about quality, and some things are better than others. You yourself are saying that you recognise that your earlier stuff isn’t up the the standards you now hold, and that you don’t want to write ‘crap’. There are always going to be value judgements, and saying some things are better than others is always at the core of discussions about art forms. In that context, I don’t think saying something is elistist dismisses it from the discussion. Better, probably, to just go for broke and say you reckon it’s wrong.

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  64. Artistic ventures offers the *opportunity* to be elitist, yes; but the very point of art is for someone to put their input into it (paint, words, music), using whatever resources of love and knowledge to do so then put it out for *others* to relate to.
    Now believe you me, *has to laugh*, I have seen some DESPICABLE fanfiction. Fanfiction.net (also known to me and many others as ‘The Pit’) is an incredible trash can. It’s full of people thinking they’re great writers because they have 347 reviewers saying “I LUVED IT LYK ZOMG”.
    But as much as I’ll have a good laugh over it, I also realize it’s usually some fourteen-year-old girl who really, really likes Harry Potter or Legorlando and wants to just shove it out there. I did the same thing, only the internet wasn’t around for me to throw my drivel out to the world. The scary thing is– I MIGHT have, if the opportunity arose. I can be an incredibly impulsive person.
    So the thing is this; it’s fine to offer constructive crits, and even make fun of it a little. It’s fine to say ‘this is bull’ even. But that person could become something greater if given the chance. Perhaps years down the line they’ll be inspired to write something of their own, go through proper editing and really *work* on things to become the next great author of their time.
    But what I’m addressing isn’t the small, pompous notions in that. What I’m trying to figure out is the reasons WHY fanfiction is seen as a total, 100% waste of time, and why the owner of this blog/others replying have stated that ‘good authors don’t write fanfic/those that do can’t write’ type of opinions.
    I have read some of the most brilliant stories that come from fanfic friends of mine. I consider myself educated enough to know what can be seen as excellent work and enjoy it accordingly, and when I *do* in fact see it, I can be brought to tears, laughter… whatever.
    For someone to make prejudiced remarks about fanfiction, relying only on what they’ve seen on ff.net or other ‘click the button and publish your stuff on the net’ type of fiction generators (if that’s the case) DOES upset me enough to stand on the soapbox (in writing novel replies like this ;)). They may as well say it directly to me, stating that I am some sort of bottom-of-the-barrel writer with no talent.
    I can’t stand that type of arrogance; arrogance, to me, discredits a person if they convey it. That’s just my opinion, but that’s MY opinion. If one is to think that they can judge other writers with blanket statements as spoken about here then I’m sorry. You’re not better than me or the people I know in your being published. I have many talents myself, and perhaps I could hone them even more to get myself published one day. But even if I WAS, I wouldn’t turn my back on fanfiction. I wouldn’t become some sort of ‘snot’ towards those I have shared such good times and stories with. I think of myself as an honest, ‘take me as I am’ type of person. Someone stated that ff writers wouldn’t DARE tell anyone their writing business because they’d be ashamed.
    They’re not ashamed, but *scared* because of people who treat them like dirt when they hear it, not because they’re ashamed of DOING it. In an extreme example, it’d be like someone hiding the fact that they were Jewish in WWII Germany. It isn’t that they’re ‘ashamed’ of being Jewish, it’s that they KNOW what will *happen* if they declare it. An extreme example, like I’d said. It’s not intended to make huge, completely related comparisons, but to create a small analogy.
    Everyone in my family, that I am friends with and even co-workers have been told. I am not afraid of what people will think of me, because that’s their own deal if they don’t like it.
    I know this is one heck of a long winded reply, *grins*, but that’s the way I am. The basic gist is that I wasn’t put on the earth to think what I am/do/will do is better than anyone else. Art is expression, emotion, and sharing– not a country club.

    Reply
  65. “Now believe you me, I have seen some DESPICABLE fanfiction. Fanfiction.net is an incredible trash can….But as much as I’ll have a good laugh over it, I also realize it’s usually some fourteen-year-old girl who really, really likes Harry Potter or Legorlando and wants to just shove it out there.”
    In defense of 14-year old fangirls: When I wrote in LOTR I repeatedly had clashes with an incredibly elitist writer who thought herself the sole measurement of quality and style and frequently bashed teenage writers or even MSTed them. I always found that incredibly cruel.
    I mean, even 14 year olds have the right to express themselves artistically if they feel like it. Of course their work isn’t meant for grown up readers, but no one forces us to read it either (thank god).
    When your toddler paints you a picture with finger colours do you tell them it’s no good, because they’re no Monet? No, you tell them it’s a great picture and you love it and you hang it somewhere.
    Same for me with teenage fanfic. FF.net is an easy way tor teenagers to share their work with people of their age group. And if some adult person accidentally starts reading the fic (mostly you can tell teen-fic by the summary), why, there’s always the back button, isn’t it? I might smile and think, “Oh dear, what an imagination!”, but I leave without leaving an acerbic review or thinking anything bad about the writer.
    kete

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  66. Come on, fan fic hardly justifies comparison to Nazis. Lee’s only just deleted a whole tranche of comments comparing a poster to Hitler; comparing yourself to a potential concentration camp victim is going a bit far. It’s really not respectful to all the people who were gassed.
    I don’t think anyone is saying that fan fickers are worse people than anyone else because they write fan fic. There’s two threads here; they’re calling fickers who use the work of an unwilling author unethical, ie worse behaved, and they’re saying that fan fic is a lesser art form because it involves less work than original fiction, ie worse writers. Those are specific criticisms, not generalisations.
    Art is expression. Some people don’t express themselves well. That doesn’t mean they’re less valid as citizens, but it does mean they’re less able as artists. If they’re hobbyists, that’s something else, but you keep talking about fics being good. Hence, quality is an issue. There are different arguments on different subjects here, and I think you’re conflating separate strands.

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  67. Now waitaminnit, waitaminnit… I just noticed the ads on the right side of this page. Lee Goldberg has written fanfiction?
    If he or others here are to say “real writers don’t riff off of others’ ideas” when it comes to writing, how is this justified? He may have gotten permission from the creators of Monk, Diagnosis Murder and Murder, She Wrote (THREE fandoms, I only write two…!) to write these books, but it’s STILL fanfiction no matter who puts their stamp of approval on it.
    I don’t get it, I honestly don’t. This is hypocrisy, simple put. I’m not trying to start some wank-war here, but how can this complaining about fanfic be justified when he’s *writing fanfic???*

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  68. First of all kete, note the ideas I wrote AFTER that. I basically state that those 14-year-olds may become something bigger and brighter once they work on improving. Please read between the lines there; I use age as a factor simply because writers at that age are immature in their art and need to grow into it. I used to disagree with the poet Ranier Maria Rilke in his saying this when I was that age, but have come to learn differently.
    Secondly to ey-up, I also stated that I’d not meant in ANY way that fanfic-writers and concentration camp victims were the same. It was simply stated as an analogy and nothing more. If that offended you then I apologize, but it wasn’t meant to be any sort of “see? We’re just like those that died in WWII!” That’d be ridiculous. Please don’t read things into this that aren’t there to begin with. I gave disclaimers before and after I typed that.
    Anyway, we seem to reach a common ground here and I really appreciate that. There’re always going to be conflicting ideas when it comes to art/writing/music and what not, but I think we can all agree that we enjoy what we’re doing and how we do it.
    But like I’d just addressed in a separate post; the author Lee here has written fanfiction with his books. I’d just noticed that today. I don’t quite get his stance on how fanfic writers are no talent hacks without imagination if he’s done this.

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  69. I will save Lee the trouble of answering by quoting his post before dealing with this same accusation:
    1) I didn’t just wake up one morning, burning with the need to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER fanfic and then sent it out a publisher, hoping to sell it. They came to me. I would never consider writing a book about characters I didn’t create unless the creator/rights holder asked me to. Why? Because the characters aren’t mine.
    2) I was an executive producer and principal writer of the DIAGNOSIS MURDER TV series for many years and was approached by the studio and publisher to write the books. In many ways, I shaped, guided, and “controlled” the characters long before I started writing books about them. This makes me a rarity among tie-in writers. As far as I know, there isn’t anyone out there writing fanfic about the shows they wrote and produced.
    3) I was writing for the TV series MONK for several seasons when the creator/executive producer of the show approached me to write the books. I not only continue to write episodes of the show, but I write the books with the executive producer’s full consent and creative input. How many fanficcers are also writing for the TV shows they are ripping off?
    4) To date, I have only written tie-ins based on TV shows that I also wrote and/or produced. Again, that makes me a rarity among tie-in writers.
    5) These are licensed tie-in novels, written under the contract with the rights holders, who have full control over how their characters and “worlds” are used. This is true of all tie-in writers…and no fanficcers.
    6) I wrote my own, published novels long before I was approached to write any tie-ins (in fact, they got me the tie-ins) and continue to do so. My recent book THE MAN WITH THE IRON-ON BADGE, which got a starred review from Kirkus and was favorably compared to Hammett and Chandler, is currently nominated for a Shamus Award for Best Novel.
    What I do isn’t comparable to fanfiction — which is using someone else’s work without their consent or involvement and distributing on the Internet. I don’t do it as my personal artistic expression — it’s a job, one that I do to the best of my ability.
    Like a fanficcer, I am writing about characters I didn’t create and that are not my own. But, as I said before, unless approached to do so, I would have absolutely no interest or desire to write about someone else’s characters. Why? Because…and let me repeat this… the characters aren’t mine. I didn’t create them. They don’t belong to me. I much prefer to write totally original work and if I could make my living only doing that, I would.
    Write all the fanfiction you want to for practice — just don’t post it on the Internet or publish it. Or if you do want to post it, ask the creator/right’s holder for permission to do so first. How hard is that?
    What I have yet to see any fanficcer explain why they won’t to ask the creator or rights holder for permission before posting and distributing their work. Or why fanficcers adamantly refuse to follow the expressed wishes of creator/rights holders (for example, Rowling has approved fanfiction based on Harry Potter as long as it’s not sexually explicit…but that hasn’t stopped thousands of people from writing and posting Potter slash, disrespecting her and her wishes ).
    I know the answer, of course. Fanficcers are terrified of officially being told NO… and identifying themselves in case they decide to blithely violate the author’s wishes anyway.

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  70. If you don’t publish it anywhere that would be the key test. Hunter Thompson typed Hemingway’s novels to see what it felt like to write successful stories. He didn’t submit them anywhere or post them in free publications like web-logs are now. Anyone who can’t grasp this basic concept has little chance of real publication.

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  71. I have posted it on the internet. I just don’t see what the fuss is about, I really don’t. You sound so angry, defensive and like you have to uphold some huge law for everyone.
    Let me just state this; my fanfic centers mainly on Elijah Wood’s characters from his movies. I am a big fan of his and enjoy following his career, looking things up and yes, writing about him. A year or so back during more than three interviews on TV or magazines, he expressed genuine amusement and appreciation for a photo-manipulator’s work that was shown to him at a convention by a fan. The photo in question was of him and his co-star Dominic Monaghan in bed, naked as jaybirds, and in Elijah’s own words, “making sweet, sweet love”. He knows his fanbase and KNOWS people write fanfic about him or his characters. While sometimes RPS can squitch me, he has made it perfectly clear that the idea of fanfiction or photo manipulations doesn’t bother him in the slightest. He’s even promoted the site veryverygay.com, wherein people joke HEAVILY on his sexual orientation, even though he’s upheld his heterosexuality.
    Now if it made him *upset*, then of COURSE I would stop. I respect him as person first and foremost. One of the reasons I respect him is his non-aggressive approach to nearly everything, including fanfic or rumors. He plays with it all and seems to honestly enjoy it. If it were ever made undeniable clear that he did NOT want this sort of thing done I wouldn’t pursue it any longer, lest it were just private hobby material.
    I’m impressed by the accomplishments listed about his working on the show, but so far in this discussion I haven’t felt one iota of aggression or confrontation. You stepping in like this stepped that *up* a few notches. You generalize and label fanfickers like we were all idiots. I am not an idiot.
    So if a fanfic is well-writ and has had no public “stop this right now” orders from the creators, what exactly IS the harm? Not opinion based harm; your arguments have stated that “a person who writes fanfiction isn’t a good writer/having to use other ideas is uncreative/etc.”, but that is not HARM. We’re not taking money away from anyone, and no one is getting HURT by it unless the creator *has* come around asking to c&d the material. You and/or others have brought up the case of Rowling coming out and asking to ‘keep it clean’, but I haven’t heard anything from anyone on the fic *I* write. You seem to over generalize everything having to do with fanfic and toss it *all* in the garbage when it doesn’t deserve it.

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  72. Ey-up said, “Art is expression. Some people don’t express themselves well. That doesn’t mean they’re less valid as citizens, but it does mean they’re less able as artists. If they’re hobbyists, that’s something else, but you keep talking about fics being good. Hence, quality is an issue. There are different arguments on different subjects here, and I think you’re conflating separate strands.”
    You’re absolutely right, some people do not express themselves well. – Or, at least, I think so. But you know what? It’s a matter of taste.
    There are fics out there I find distasteful and abhorrent and just plain bad – and they have 749 reviews claiming how great the reviewer found this.
    And even if the whole wide world agreed that some fic of some poor slob was THE WORST THING EVAH!!! we still had no right to tell the writer to stop. (Although we may wish thus.)
    Even the “worstest artist” out there has a right to *express* themselves in whatever form they see fit. All we can do is avoid their work. Or write an acerbic review, which I have done occasionally (for my peers, not kiddies posting daydreams of Legolas), much to the dismay of the cult of nice.
    And while I may wish for some writers to develop arthritis in their fingers to make them stop – this is just that: my private wish. I would fight like a tiger for that writer’s right to write and post whatever they see fit.
    kete

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  73. “Is Fan Fic Legal?”
    I believe an better question would be “When is fan fiction legal and when is it not legal?”
    Obviously, when a writer (like say Anne Rice?) absolutely forbids fan fiction based on her works and will sue you if you attempt to use them anyway…it’s a safe bet that writing stories based off of her work is not legal, or is at the very least a serious legal issue.
    As for authors/companies who DO allow fan fiction to be written based off of their characters (like Joss Whedon) and have no desire to stop the writing of fan fiction based off of their work, then there shouldn’t be an issue, certainly not a legal issue.
    Perhaps the smartest thing to do, other than trying to explain, justify, or antagonize the culture of fan fiction as a *whole* would be to approach it fandom by fandom rather than trying to lump everything into one category.

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  74. “I have posted it on the internet. I just don’t see what the fuss is about, I really don’t.”
    I believe you, but it’s not I who is in the legal wrong here. You are by virtue of this publication of infringed copyrighted material. I’d dig deep and grasp that if I were in your shoes. The “fuss” is it’s illegal on its face.

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  75. I don’t see (from the provided list) how what Mr. Goldberg does is “incomparable” to fan fiction, especially when he jumps to the conclusion that ALL fandoms exist without the knowledge and or consent of the creators. This is simply not true and I have to raise an eyebrow at such an absolute statement. There’s no way a claim like that can stand on two legs.
    So then, I’ll ask: “How is Mr. Goldberg anything other than a paid fan fiction author when compared to fan fiction authors in fandoms where they are given permission to create stories?”

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  76. “Perhaps the smartest thing to do, other than trying to explain, justify, or antagonize the culture of fan fiction as a *whole* would be to approach it fandom by fandom rather than trying to lump everything into one category.”
    Well said, Nona. I *do* get on the defensive, but I hope I bring up good points and act coherant, *laughs*. Your last posted points are things that have bugged me, too. If we’re to take the arguments of “you shouldn’t write others’ ideas because you’ll prove yourself the suxxors!”, then I really don’t care if he was a paid writer on the show and he got permission to write them. That’s fine; lots of people do this, in all sorts of fandoms (Star Wars especially). But you in essence ARE writing fanfic, in it’s true and honest definition. You are writing stories of another person’s idea, whether you were privy to knowledge and working within it or not. It’s blurring the lines in your favor to make arguments about what’s bad fanfic and what isn’t as if trying to justify *your own*.
    I think the general idea here is that no one is going to agree on things.
    All I’m going to say now is, Lee, you’re no better than I am. You’re no better than a LOT of writers out there. I’ve looked through some of your work and reviews online, and it’s fine. Good for you for your accomplishments. But you’re blowing your ego up to mass proportions; if you were some incredible known writer and artist, I would *so* give it up for you. But you’re not… yet you choose to *act* like you are. Even though my stuff is fanfiction, I and others (some who HAVE been published) think it’s relatively good stuff for a non-professional writer. But do I have my journals or sites titled ‘A Writer’s Life’? Do I snub my noses at people? Nope. I wouldn’t dare– even if I felt there was a basis for my distaste towards something, it’s not my place to insult them in a personal fashion. There’s nothing but conclusion in here; no exception, all/every/ fanficker(s)stink.
    Okay. Think that. I sure as heck can’t change your mind; you don’t know me. Maybe if you did– maybe if you saw the improvements I made in my writing in writing fanfic, you’d change your mind. But your head is so puffed up from getting some small stories published that you can’t *possibly* fathom that there are good writers out there who have fun and write fanfic well. It is elitist, snobbish and ignorant to make blanket statements against a HUGE group of people.
    I’m not going to beat a dead horse anymore, and I’m not in charge of changing people’s minds. Might check in here from time to time just to watch discussion, but I’ve put in my 431 cents in already, and that’s enough.

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  77. Just to add my 2 cents to this interesting discussion on fan fiction…
    I discovered fan fiction several years ago under a fandom related to works written by Laurie R. King. Not long after that, I also discoverd the movie “Hellboy” and suddenly felt compelled to write stories based on that movie. I also derive ideas for my fan fictions from the original comic book the movie was based on.
    In what I write, I try as much as possible to keep the characters ‘in character’ and attempt as much as possible to write nothing that contradicts established details from the movie. For example, one of my “Hellboy” stories derives from a canonical biographical detail about one of the characters having had cancer many years before the time period of the movie. I turn this into a whole examination of a father/son relationship and how the idea of ‘human rights’ would be applied to a nonhuman sentient being. The basic characters and that one biographical detail derives from someone else, but the story itself it almost totally my own creation.
    I post my fics in several places (including fanfiction.net) and recognize that fan fiction is a violation of copyright as an ‘inappropriately derivate work’. On the other hand, my “Hellboy” fics have made friends of mine interested in the original work(s) and they have gone on to purchase the movie and/or the original comics. (Certainly the people who have created “Hellboy” have made a TON of money from me.)
    I used to HATE writing, but over the last several years have seen my skills grow. I would never consider myself a great writer, but I have had great pleasure in sharing with others my insights into the characters from the movie “Hellboy”.
    I’ve certainly read my share of awful fan fiction. I’ve also read quite original stories written by authors who can’t seem to type worth a damn and horrible stories written by people with great grammar and typing. I have recently read a whole slew of “Diagnosis Murder” fanfics; some of which are written so well as to make me blush at my own attemps at writing.
    Yet, I have also gotten my share of emails from around the world from those who appreciate my interpretation of the underlying message I see in both the movie “Hellboy” and the original comics. It is a message dealing with family, love, and salvation and this subtext is not original to me; it, indeed, derives from the original(s). If through my writing I can point this out to others, what is the harm?
    Elizabeth Palladino (epalladino on fanfiction.net)
    P.S. Laurie R. King, who I mentioned at the beginning of my post writes published novels based on the idea of Sherlock Holmes having a young wife and for some reason she really makes this work. I wonder what Conan Doyle would think of this if he were still alive? She follows the fan fictions based on her works and doesn’t seem to mind; even posting occasionally to the website.
    P.P.S I have yet to encounter a fanfic writer who can’t type who doesn’t claim to be dyslexic. Frankly, that excuse is getting very old.

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  78. ‘Now if it made him *upset*, then of COURSE I would stop. I respect him as person first and foremost. One of the reasons I respect him is his non-aggressive approach to nearly everything, including fanfic or rumors.’
    Good for you for being willing to stop, but the second sentence gives me pause. It’s a bind that authors often seem to get put in by fans. Fans are supportive and respectful of the author’s wishes, as long as the author doesn’t wish them to stop doing something they enjoy, but if an author asks fans not to do something – ie puts that respect to the test – then suddenly a section of their fandom gets righteously angry and declares they don’t deserve respect. I’m not saying that you personally do this, Veronica – from what you’re saying, it looks like you don’t – but there is a strand of thought that only authors whose wishes don’t interfere with fans’ pleasures are authors whose wishes deserve to be respected. Which, honestly, is not respect; it’s determination to get their own way.
    The difference between Lee and fan fickers, as he keeps saying, is that fan fickers write their work spontaneously because they find it enjoyable to do so, generally without consulting the copyright holder; Lee writes his work after having been specifically requested by the copyright holder to do so. It’s about the relationship between copyright holder and author, not about the actual content of the writing.
    And Elizabeth, if you ‘used to HATE writing’, why did you keep doing it? There’s no law that says you have to write.

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  79. Hey Ey-up, thanks for the vote of confidence my way, *laughs* I thank you for that.
    Yea, like I’d said… I wouldn’t give someone flak for not wanting to have fic written from their work. It’s not my decision to make. The only thing I decide is if I want to do what I do, whether writing or what not. Anyway… it’s been good discussion in here.
    And I think Liz there simply discovered a love of writing in writing fanfic, and can appreciate it. It’s kind of like someone who hates writing essays at school, thinks they hate writing entirely then discovering the art in something they can relate to and like.

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  80. To Ey-up
    The fact that I used to hate writing–that is the only thing you noticed in my post?
    Please notice the “used to” part–I was using past tense. I don’t hate it any more.
    Beth Palladino

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  81. ‘The fact that I used to hate writing–that is the only thing you noticed in my post?’
    No, it’s just the thing I wanted to ask you about. Why, what were you hoping I’d do?

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  82. M. York… in ref. to your Eagle Scout/badge posting there… I can only assume that since you’re on the side of “fanfic stinks” that you’re suggesting an expanded version of this badge to include… fanfic?
    My husband is an Eagle Scout too. I think if I asked him about this, he’d look at me like I had three heads.
    I’m so serious, are you *honestly bringing this up* to expose the idea that boy scouts should go after fanfic… for a badge? Am I reading too much into this? You brought it up in a *discussion* about fanfic, so I can only assume that you want webelos trolling the net to look up fic and destroy us all.
    I really, really wish you could see the look on my face. I really do. This is just… no, I’m so incredibly befuddled by this.
    You want Boy Scouts to go online, read bad fanfiction, report it to the feds/SWAT team/etc. then eat a pot luck dinner in celebration of this badge…?
    *shrugs* Okay then. You do that… I mean…
    FANFIC is not PIRACY. You find an article that says *exactly* that phrase, a LEGAL DOCUMENT that states “fanfiction is piracy” or EVEN “fanfiction is ILLEGAL”, quote it here with the source and I’ll shut up. Only it HAS TO BE A LEGAL SOURCE, not this flippin’ blog. Stop saying that, Jesum, I mean… I mean…
    WHAT???

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  83. To Ey-up:
    I didn’t hope anything in particular from you at all. I just found it weird that you only picked up on that one statement and then asked why I bothered writing if I hated it so much. Sorry, but I can’t help feeling like you didn’t read my entire post. If you had, you would both understand why I no longer hate writing and why I do not consider it a waste of time.
    No, there is no law that says I have to write. I write both because I now love and it and because I have something to say.
    Elizabeth Palladino

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  84. I did read your entire post. What was bothering me was the implication that fan fiction is inherently good because it means that you write. It’s a argument I’ve seen a lot of fans use, that fan fic is good because it gets people writing. But people don’t have to write; saying ‘I wouldn’t write if it wasn’t for such-and-such’ is not like saying ‘I wouldn’t vote’, or ‘I wouldn’t exercise’. If someone doesn’t enjoy writing and they, as a result, don’t write, that’s a perfectly reasonable state of affairs. There are plenty of other ways to entertain or expresss yourself. I simply don’t think that writing is either a duty or a right that justifies every means to that end. I was questioning it as a justification of fan fic.

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  85. What people mean who say “I wouldn’t write if it weren’t for fanfic” is that they would not be creative in any way without it. And imo that really *is* a good thing.
    It’s a grassroots movement taking away the privilege of producing entertainment/literature/stories/whatever-you-want-to-name-it from the money-related enterprises (and that means writers like LG as well as Disney) and putting it back where it belongs: with the people.
    kete

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  86. The trouble with this ‘grassroots movement’ is that it’s not liberating something that’s a natural resource that ought to be open to all. Declare that the people of a particular town have more right than a foreign multinational to control their own water supply, and you’re absolutely right. But the natural resource is the common language of culture, and everybody has equal access to that. Disney isn’t blocking it, and fan fiction isn’t liberating it.
    Disney is not going around snatching the pens out of the hands of every hopeful who’s decided to write a story about talking animals. I don’t support their pressure to get copyright extended, but neither do I think they’re making it in any way difficult for people to be creative if they really want to be. Come up with your own idea, and you can write whatever you like.
    It’s hardly power to the people if their creativity has to be sponsored by the tremendous boost of having their characters written for them. It’s certainly not a grassroots commune thriving on self-sufficiency; it’s more like a government-funded industry that stays afloat because of subsidies. Argue for that if you wish, but that’s not attacking privileges, it’s demanding them for yourselves.

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  87. “The trouble with this ‘grassroots movement’ is that it’s not liberating something that’s a natural resource that ought to be open to all.”
    Of course it does. Producing content is thought to be the privilege of some eclectic circle and as you can see on this blog the ones that think they belong do everything to keep it that way.
    “Come up with your own idea, and you can write whatever you like.
    It’s hardly power to the people if their creativity has to be sponsored by the tremendous boost of having their characters written for them.”
    Unfortunately you cannot order your muse to strike where you would like her to. And if our fantasy is fired by some book or movie or TV-show we claim the right to follow that path.
    To quote Thomas Jefferson:
    “If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.”
    We abide by the law and respect the copyright in that we do not profit from our endeavours. We leave that to the originator of the idea. As for creating and sharing – that’s a human right, imo.
    kete

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  88. Jefferson was talking about ideas, not characters.
    You say that people want to keep the right to write the product of some ‘eclectic’ circle (I think you mean ‘exclusive’ – ‘eclectic’ means chosen from a wide variety of sources). It’s not about rules and privileges, it’s just about facts. Marie Antoinette dressed up as a peasant, but that didn’t make her a worker of the world, because she didn’t actually work. Fan fic gives the sensation of ‘being a writer’, but you can’t expect people who haul the water and chop the thickets and do the real hard work of coming up with original material to hail you as a fellow labourer if you aren’t prepared to do the same. Do the work, and they will, but if you won’t, they can’t.
    ‘Unfortunately you cannot order your muse to strike where you would like her to.’
    You know what? You’re dead right. And it’s the willingness to deal with that hard fact with stamina and perseverence that earns you the respect of other writers.
    ‘As for creating and sharing – that’s a human right, imo.’
    So create. Fan fiction is founded on avoiding a large part of the creative process.
    What I’m really hearing from you is that writing fan fiction is easier. Probably true. But while genuine creativity is a human right, shortcuts aren’t.

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  89. “Jefferson was talking about ideas, not characters.”
    Same diff. What is a virtual character other than an idea?
    “‘eclectic’ circle (I think you mean ‘exclusive’ – ‘eclectic’ means chosen from a wide variety of sources).”
    You’re right. Thank you. Sometimes when I start a word it ends different than I mean to, because I’m already thinking of something else.
    “Fan fic gives the sensation of ‘being a writer’, but you can’t expect people who haul the water and chop the thickets and do the real hard work of coming up with original material to hail you as a fellow labourer if you aren’t prepared to do the same. Do the work, and they will, but if you won’t, they can’t.”
    Ooomph. I really don’t want to be rude – but no fanfic writer I know of would like to be hailed by LG and the likes as a “fellow labourer”. Far from it!
    “You know what? You’re dead right. And it’s the willingness to deal with that hard fact with stamina and perseverence that earns you the respect of other writers.”
    If I were what I call a “bread and butter”-writer you may be right. As I do it as a hobby – why should I turn it into work for heaven’s sake?
    I do cook to a fairly high standard. Doesn’t mean I want to open a retaurant. Also I bake and people have told me I “just had to open a bakery, I would make a fortune”. Do intend to do that? No way! For one: I don’t need any more money than I have. I live comfortable the way I do. And second: why turn into a “must” that what I now just do for the love of it? Do I really look that crazy?
    “So create. Fan fiction is founded on avoiding a large part of the creative process.
    What I’m really hearing from you is that writing fan fiction is easier. Probably true. But while genuine creativity is a human right, shortcuts aren’t.”
    No, I wouldn’t say that. It’s not necessarily easier, just different. Different set of conditions, different set of tools, different set of readership.
    kete

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  90. You seem to be implying that I said writing had to be professional, ie paid for, for it to be legitimate. I’ve never said any such thing, so please don’t put words in my mouth or conflate me with other people you disagree with, otherwise there’s no point debating.
    What I was saying was that writing takes an effort which fan fiction skips. You’ve been arguing that creativity carries rights; I’m stating the flip side, which is that it carries duties as well, specifically the duty to use your own imagination, and if you want the one, you have to respect the other. You’re claiming the rights of a writer without being willing to pay the dues. That’s why people are disagreeing with you. It’s nothing to do with exclusivity.
    ‘no fanfic writer I know of would like to be hailed by LG and the likes as a “fellow labourer”.’
    Then why are you making a fuss about his refusing to? Either you don’t care about having his good opinion, in which case you wouldn’t be annoyed enough to keep posting on his blog, or it bothers you that he condemns what you do. Please don’t tell me you just come here to make fun of him; if his views didn’t get under your skin somehow, you wouldn’t bother.
    The point is, you’ve objected bitterly to his and others’ views. You can’t turn around and say that you don’t care what they think when you get challenged on your objections. It doesn’t address the point, and in the light of your behaviour on this site, it doesn’t ring true.

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  91. “Then why are you making a fuss about his refusing to? Either you don’t care about having his good opinion, in which case you wouldn’t be annoyed enough to keep posting on his blog, or it bothers you that he condemns what you do.”
    He refuses me/us? I don’t see how he’s able to do any such thing. He’s permanently insulting us would be more to the point. And, in fact, I don’t care about his opinion, but I like to debate.
    kete

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  92. I think fanfiction can be a wonderful thing. Kids, who would otherwise be going around chat rooms or blogging on MySpace, are instead writing creative fiction. I do hope that they will move on to their own charaters but fanfiction should be embraced.

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  93. Saying that fanfiction is stupid, unimaginative and lazy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People say that it’s supposed to be bad, therefore, it *IS* bad. But between you an me, the reason that so much fanfiction is poorly written is not because it’s easy, but because it’s difficult.
    Sure a lot of stuff is made up for you. On the flip side, that means there’s a lot of rules to follow.
    Whereas you can just start an orignal fic out of the blue, a fan fiction requires research into your fandom and constant comparisons to keep characterizations correct. Every plot twist has to be checked against your fandom to make sure that it’s reasonable and correct.
    Because fanfiction is so hard, fledgling writers tend to take short-cuts– resulting, of course, in a poor story.
    Fanfiction-bashers don’t help either. By propogating the myth that fanfiction is “easy”, “lazy” or “supposed to be bad”, writers believe this silliness and stop trying.
    A fanfiction piece is not so different from an original piece. You still need imagination and basic writing skills. And it takes a lot to think up a plot that’s different enough to be original, but still fits into the universe you’re writing.
    I’ve tried to write fanfiction myself– and of course I don’t get it right. Because it’s hard, and it’s hard to see all my efforts thrown aside by persons who don’t really know what they’re talking about.

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  94. Concerning legality,
    http://www.authorslawyer.com/c-pir0.shtml
    [return address]
    Dear [Sir | Madam]:
    On [date], I noticed that your [site | email newsletter | electronic message | electronic product] [exact name and URL, ISBN, or ISSN, if available], dated [apparent date of infringement], includes an [attributed | unattributed] copy of material that infringes on my exclusive right in the [story | article | review] [writer’s title]. This work originally appeared in [publication data]. According to my records, I have not authorized this use.
    Please contact me immediately so we can work out either an appropriate agreement for this use or an agreement to terminate this use.
    Sincerely,
    Arthur Author

    Reply
  95. “What I’m really hearing from you is that writing fan fiction is easier”
    It is, since there’s no editorial review, thus it’s pure vanity. Of course as we’ve seen, if you actually publish it by a vanity press printer, you get shut down in a hurry.

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  96. I’ll admit that I haven’t read the whole argument/discussion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the way through, but some of the arguments both for and against fanfiction seem rather…out there. One thing that I totally agree with;as there has been no legal case as of yet, there is no precedence. It is something that is likely to be settled by the incoming generation.
    I’ll admit freely to both being a fanfic writer and someone who is disgusted by some of the awful writing in fandom. Both sides have a legitimate argument, but I think that the one in favor of fanfic has more going for it–namely, the millions of fans behind it.
    I’d also like to add that almost every fic that I’ve ever read has had some sort of disclaimer, which, while not making legal, shows that the writer recognizes that it isn’t their work. Most writers realize that they really have no right to whatever they write, as they basically used someone else’s idea. I think that, keeping this in mind, a compromise could be reached.
    Also, for the idea that fanfiction loses the orginal money: most of the random paraphernalia–not all, but most–of the original is bought by those very fanfic writers. They’re fans. That’s why they write what they do. These are the people that will go out of their way to buy a book signed by their favorite author, even though they already have a copy, and even though it costs twice what it should.
    Finally, I’d like to add that one of the main authors used to rebuttal fandom earlier, JKR, is a known visitor to a site called mugglenet, which is purely Harry Potter fiction. she herself has said that she reads fanfics. While writers of these fics must respect the original authors’ decision and stop writing if they wish, it sends rather mixed signals when they read fanfics themselves. Most authors, contrary to popular opinion on this blog, don’t really mind fanfiction; and most writers of it respect their executive decisions. After all, we’re talking about people who spend page after page after page discussing canon.

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  97. ‘”What I’m really hearing from you is that writing fan fiction is easier”
    It is, since there’s no editorial review, thus it’s pure vanity. Of course as we’ve seen, if you actually publish it by a vanity press printer, you get shut down in a hurry.’
    Once again, as a fanfiction writer, I’d like to point out some of the finer details of fanfiction. People often leave reviews for stories–in fact, writers beg for them. There’s something called a beta that edits stories for people, most of them for free. Writers of fanfiction subject themselves to the harsh criticism (called flames)of their peers, and are open to suggestions as they go along.
    Really, you should understand both sides of a topic exceedingly well before harshly attacking either. Your arguments sound stupid and uninformed to other side when you can’t explain their side to them and then explain why that’s wrong.Instead of convincing them, you turn them away from your opinion, because you sound biased and unrealistic.
    As the daughter of an author and editor (well-known in some communities, but certainly not renowned), who often edits HIS work, I’d finally like to add that you’re grouping all fanfic writers together. Sure, some are poor writers with worse grammar and spelling like a first grader, but others are high-level college students or hard working adults who know what they’re doing.
    I’m kind of insulted that you think that fanfiction requires no effort. Imagine a huge report, where you have to cite every source–and worse, it’s ongoing. It’s gone over by several teachers. That’s the type of inspection any fic that attempts to be canon is subjected to. You have to be able to defend your theories and facts, and even the tiniest sentence from the least-known interview can send your story reeling.

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  98. “Actually, people with Kyler’s spelling and grammar are often mocked in the fanfiction community. But literate fanfiction writers won’t waste their time on this blog. The people here only want to bash fanfiction, not discuss it.”
    I’d just like to put this out there as a reasonable post on the side of fanfiction that was largely ignored. Obviously, they were angered, but kept that in check.
    With that in mind, I’d like to apologize to anyone and everyone I insulted in any way in my previous posts. Looking back, I realize that I was over-enthusiastic and much ruder and certainly much blunter than I normally am. Once again, I’m sorry if I offended any of you, from either side of the argument.

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  99. idiot. She’s always apologizing, but she’s not taking back what she said. She’s sorry about the way she said it, not what she said.

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  100. I’ve read a lot of the comments here, and it just makes me laugh, honestly.
    It’s like coming up to a kid who’s playing with action figures of well-established characters, and saying “Hey you little bitch, give me back those ideas. You can’t make new stories with the characters I invented! I’m going to sue you! It’s illegal!”
    For everyone concerned, I’m both an original fiction writer (yeah, I know how hard it is, but it’s honestly no more difficult than working with pre-created characters) and a fanfiction writer (I definitely know how satisfying that is). If a writer comes out and condemns fanfiction, a la Robin Hobb, I’ll say “man, I’d feel guilty going against her wishes. I won’t write fanfiction for that, or if I do, I’ll keep it very personal, between myself and one or two other very close friends.”
    Ultimately though, no one here has the power or authority, moral or legal, to change anything. Some of you are just hostile individuals who seem very bothered by the idea that communities of like-minded individuals are having fun in a creative and happy setting. That says more about you than it says about them.

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  101. LOL @ you, my friend. I know this won’t get put on your blog, and I don’t really mind.
    You really hate fanfic, obviously. But, come on! You wrote MONK, FFS. You don’t like it? Fine. But these people aren’t taking money out of your wallet or food off your table. If you ignore them, they have no impact on your life. So why not just ignore it instead of getting so angry about it? Many writers of much better shows that Monk – including Doctor Who writers – exercised their literary muscles on ready – made characters before they were ready to create their own original ones. It’s simply intellectual snobbery for you to claim that ‘as a writer’ you are the arbiter of what is relevant literature and what isn’t. I also refer to the many posters before me who have pointed out to you that Ms. Rowling only has issue with the sexually explicit fiction reaching underage readers.

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  102. “I know the answer, of course. Fanficcers are terrified of officially being told NO… and identifying themselves in case they decide to blithely violate the author’s wishes anyway.”
    I don’t think that’s it. Authors HAVE in some cases come out on the record and said “NO” to fanfiction, and guess what? The fans keep on making it. WHY IS THAT? Because something else is driving it.
    “The point is, you’ve objected bitterly to his and others’ views. You can’t turn around and say that you don’t care what they think when you get challenged on your objections. ”
    That doesn’t make 100% sense. Him does him RECEIVING challenges say what HE thinks about others’ views, not what THEY think about HIS views? HIS objections and challenges are what say what HE thinks about others’ views.

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  103. Seeing as this whole thing ended a long time ago, I doubt my opinion will even be read but it’s not like I’ll be losing anything, right?
    As a joke, a friend once directed me to a “List of Internet Rules” on a satirical wiki site called ‘Encyclopedia Dramatica’. While most of the rules were very silly, there was one which, unfortunately, stands very true.
    “If it exists, there *will* be porn of it”
    This ‘rule’ applies to fanfiction too.
    If you present something to the public, there will be people who will like it. Among those people, there *will* be people who will fanfic/fanart it. There is no escaping it– there will *be* fanfics even if the author screams on a megaphone that he doesn’t allow fanfiction of his work and said scream is then broadcasted in every news channel worldwide.
    I’m not saying that means you should stop expressing your opinion and whatnot but just be aware that there is no stopping it.
    Also, even though I respect your opinion and can even agree on some points, I find it amusing that you haven’t said anything about fanartists. After all, fanartists not only do the same things fanficcers do (except now it’s visual and not written), a lot of them actually *do* profit from their fanwork, selling them in conventions/websites and actually getting commissions from other people.

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