President Bush has been harshly criticized for the government’s inadequate response to Katrina. He just didn’t seem to get how extreme this crisis really was. Now we know why. Here’s what his mother, Barbara Bush, had to say about the victims:
Barbara Bush, who accompanied the former presidents on a
tour of the Astrodome complex Monday, said the relocation to Houston is "working
very well" for some of the poor people forced out of New Orleans."What I’m hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want
to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," she said
during a radio interview with the American Public Media program "Marketplace."
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged
anyway, so this is working very well for them."
It’s "scary" that the survivors want to stay in Texas? The fact that they lost loved ones, their homes, their possessions and their jobs in a flood of sewage is "working well for them?" My God.
The Nation had the same take on it. I think you’re reading that a little harshly, though. She’s an elderly woman trying to say something positive about a bad situation. I fail to see how criticizing her is going to help anyone at this point.
I agree with David.
I disagree, I don’t think she said anything positive whatsoever, though perhaps she was trying. And she is hardly just anyone, she’s the mother of the President and a former first lady, so what she says does matter. And why should she get a pass on what she says while Cindy Sheehan has her every comment dissected?
What I don’t understand is why folks are reluctant to participate in what the WH calls the “Blame Game”. Why shouldn’t we? If citizens are dead because of government negligence (as is seems to be) and not JUST the storm, why shouldn’t we find those responsible and punish them for it?
It’s not that nature sometimes kills, we knew that. It’s that government negligence that results in death should not be tolerated.
Lee, c’mon. Anyone who has lived in NO knows that this crisis has been looming for decades. As horrendous a tragedy as it is, it happened for many complex reasons. Let’s not oversimplify. While you’re at it, do you want to blame Bush for the tsunami, as well? I’m thinking you’d probably answer: yes.
Yes, the crisis has been looming for decades. In fact, it was marked as one of the three biggest potential disasters in the country. The federal government was well aware of this, yet it cut funding to repair the levees a couple of years ago to funnel the money elsewhere.
As for Barbara Bush, I refuse to believe that she meant anything bad by what she said. I simply think she’s so out of touch with reality that she didn’t realize how stupid she sounded.
Yes, she’s an elderly woman — one who has known nothing but financial comfort and ease all her life, and whose son has been similarly sheltered. Her words show an inability to understand that this disaster has completely destroyed people’s lives, even those who’ve been fortunate enough to live through it and to find themselves in Texas. One wonders if her son is also as clueless. (Well, *this* one doesn’t wonder; I have no doubt that he’s just as emotionally distant as his mother.)
And whether or not you believe the current administration’s poor choices had any impact on the development of this crisis, anyone who isn’t either deluded or an administration shill has to at least admit that the response to the unfolding tragedy was abysmal, and was directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds, or thousands, of American citizens. That negligent response should be laid at Bush’s door, although in the current “blame anyone else and never take personal responsibilty” climate, I doubt we’ll see any apologies.
What I don’t see is why people are putting such malevalance (sp) into the disorganization of the aftermath. Shit happens. Trying to coordinate such a thing is difficult. Trying to sort out who has priority between federal and states rights to get things going safely is difficult. So it takes time. Has this happened before on this scale with all its complexities? Will they learn from it now? Probably. So go out and give blood; it will make ya’ll feel better.
Damn it, PK, when the hurricane hit Florida last year Bush was right there immediately, it was an election year and his brother was governor and there’s a hell of a lot of rich folks that live there – New Orleans is taken out and Bixoli destroyed and he doesn’t do a damn thing because he’s on vacation and he’s gotta sell a war he started on false pretenses. He screwed up, don’t try and say that his response, or the response of FEMA, was adequate or even less than so – it was terrible and obvious that he doesn’t care about poor people – Bush put his man in charge of FEMA and that guy blocked aid to LA, he kept people from going there to help and not only that, they had warning the damn storm was coming and didn’t do anything to help the people trapped there.
Not only that, days afterwards his attitude was that there should be ZERO TOLERANCE for looters – even though thousands have no food or water, no stores are open so they can go BUY food or water, no buses or helicopters come to rescue those people and so they go get food and water on their own and his attitude was die or be shot for looting? Come on!
This is a mess, it’s a national disaster, worse because of what happened after the storm and the buck stops at the guy in charge.
The crisis has been looming for DECADES. Well, before Bush. All through the Clinton years, and before. To blame this administration alone is rigid and inflexible nonsense. FEMA employees are on the ground busting their asses 24 hours a day to save people’s lives. Disasters are unpredictable and unthinkable by definition. Responses to them are complex because imposing order on chaos is always uncharted territory. Where are your heads, people? Well, in some cases, I know exactly where they are. Stop whining and donate money or time.
It’s been looming, sure, but it happened NOW, on this President’s watch (why is it whenever Bush does something incompetent that cannot be reasonably defended, the immediate response is to bring up Clinton, who hasn’t been in office for FIVE YEARS) and it could have been handled better when it actually happened and it WASN’T. The storm was bad, but what happened afterward was worse. Days went by and little to no help for the thousands of poor stranded and help was actually turned away as the beauracracy bickered with each other and told the media it’s actually going well . . . and no, FEMA didn’t do what they’re supposed to do (talk to the Gov of LA if you want further info on that) and to pretend otherwise is so out of touch with what happened, with what’s still happening, I don’t even want to continue talking about it with you.
Not only that, days afterwards his attitude was that there should be ZERO TOLERANCE for looters – even though thousands have no food or water, no stores are open so they can go BUY food or water, no buses or helicopters come to rescue those people and so they go get food and water on their own and his attitude was die or be shot for looting? Come on!
That’s not actually so. I know a guy who is in the National Guard that was just reassigned down to New Orleans. He told me, before he left, that people are allowed to take food and water all they want. People weren’t allowed to steal electronics, but food was fair game. Another friend of mine who is in the Army reserve was just activated today and is headed down to NO. I’m half afraid my brother is going to get yanked out of training to go down there. Support people are going to NO as fast as they can be sent.
Bush’s comment on TV just days afterward was, when asked by Walter’s, that he believes “zero tolerance” should be given to looters. He didn’t qualify it, that I’ve been able to find out, by saying only food and water. He interrupted her and said “zero tolerance” and left it at that.. I like to think the Guard was more understanding than he was.
FEMA is not an army. Nor is it a first responder agency. The city is the first responder. You aren’t reading the law correctly. If you must blame someone, start with the governor of New Orleans, who waited a staggering two days before ordering an evacuation.
Correction: obviously, I meant the governor of the state.
Foop, as someone has already pointed out, FEMA may not be a first responder, but BEFORE the hurricane hit Florida a couple years ago, Bush had troops in place and the federal government was already set to respond. And that wasn’t even a Level 5 hurricane.
It think it’s silly to be arguing this first responder nonsense. The feds were the LAST responders, like FIVE DAYS late. There’s no excuse for such irresponsibility, no matter WHO is running the country.
And this might not have been a problem if Congress, at the President’s urging, hadn’t cut the funding for repair of the levees. Surely, there is blame to go around, but you seem to want to give the feds a free pass and that’s simply ridiculous.
My question is this: should the NATIONAL guard be here in this country, ready for just this type of disaster?
Barbara Strikes!
Heartless comments from Barbara Bush (former first lady and the current President’s mother):
“Almost everyone (evacuees) I’ve talked to says we’re going to move to Houston.
“What I’m hearing which is sort of scary is they all want to sta…
Do you not recall that New Orleans was ordered evacuated before the storm hit? Not two days after. Problem was poor people did not have cars to leave in or money to pay for a place to stay.
Rich people did leave, as per the orders.
You wish to blame the city, but it was a national disaster and therefore under the federal government’s pervue, in particular FEMA, to deal with the disaster once it happened. It didn’t hit just one city or one state, it hit a whole area and destroyed it. Damn, man. Come on, you love Bush that much that you can’t see the dropped balls everywhere?
Well David M. pardon me if reality is too much for you to handle when it comes to our moneyed leadership. Brabara “Pierce” Bush is the born-wealthy daughter of a Wall Street banker and descendant of President Franklin Pierce of New Hampshire. The Bushes are “old money” made from war profiteering via George Walker and EH Harriman of the Union Pacific railroad. Prescott the president’s grandfather married Walker’s daughter to secure the deal, and did what he was told including owning Walker’s Point in Kennebunkport, Maine when old man Walker died. It’s “tough work” for the Bushes, so let “them eat cake” is perfect for the old lady of darkness. No surprise here.
by the way, for those on the west coast – I’m watching the Daily Show (which is new, just back from vacation) and what Jon Stewart has to say about this is, well, to me it’s genius and if only many more came way to that way of thinking . . . .
It’s on at 11 EST here – if you can, catch the show later tonight on your time.
This is exactly what happened:
ˇA crony with no relevant experience was installed as head of FEMA. Mitigation budgets for New Orleans were slashed even though it was known to be one of the top three risks in the country. FEMA was deliberately downsized as part of the Bush administration’s conservative agenda to reduce the role of government. After DHS was created, FEMA’s preparation and planning functions were taken away.
Actions have consequences. No one could predict that a hurricane the size of Katrina would hit this year, but the slow federal response when it did happen was no accident. It was the result of four years of deliberate Republican policy and budget choices that favor ideology and partisan loyalty at the expense of operational competence. It’s the Bush administration in a nutshell.”
I’ve deleted some nasty messages between individual commentors. I know it’s a heated issue, but please, let’s keep it civil.
Like I mentioned under a previous Lee posting, this issue is being such a political and divisive one – this is what flabbergasts me and has me the most worried. I know I’m going to get flamed for this but personally I think if you’re not being affected by this hurricane and aftermath, you don’t have any say in the matter because all you’re going off of is “well I heard this”. You DON’T know; you’re not there. All you know is what you see on TV — which assuredly is not reality and focused on ratings.
Joshua wrote: “This is a mess, it’s a national disaster, worse because of what happened after the storm and the buck stops at the guy in charge.” And playing the blame game pointing at ANYONE is so useful.
So you’re blaming God (or whatever name you prefer)? I think there’s a line for that.
PK,
I’m a Buddhist, so I don’t believe in God and therefore am not blaming Him.
Listen, I blame no one for the storm (though I should point out it’s been predicted for quite some time) I blame the government officials who didn’t act on our citizen’s behalf AFTER the storm, who didn’t do what they’re supposed to do, who sat on their hands while people died unnecessarily.
Bush has made his political career out of telling us he’s prepared, now, to deal with disasters just like this one. He installed the guy in charge of FEMA, though the man had no experience, he praised the man for his good work (though the President later called the response “inadequate”, so which is it?) and he’s the one who emptied the National Guard out of the state for the war.
So to be clear, the storm is terrible, they happen and they kill people. No one’s saying that’s the President’s fault. What’s worse is thousands of people stranded, no food or water, no medical help, no protection (people were raped and killed down there) and no law and order. They sat there for days, or didn’t you watch the reports? And that’s on HIM, the President. He’s our dean of law and order and the buck stops with him. He’s supposed to protect us, not goof around with a guitar. And don’t even get me started on how food and water was turned away. It obviously wasn’t a priority for him, I don’t know if it’s because they were black and poor (though that’s what I suspect) or because it’s not an election year, we don’t know, but we do know he didn’t do enough. In his own words, the government’s response was inadequate and he’s the head of the government so the buck stops with him.
I don’t live in Lousiana (though I know many that do, or rather, did) I live in nyc, and having lived through one tragedy here, I think more can and should be done by our elected officials and it’s up to us to demand it so. It’s what we pay for, they work for us.
If you really, honestly think that the government responded to the aftermath of the storm in the best way possible, we don’t have anything more to talk about with each other. You are too out of touch.
And one last thing . . . WHY can’t we blame? When folks die unnecessarily, isn’t that what we should do? Find those responsible and hold them accountable, make sure they don’t do it again, right? If there was something wrong with a federally approved drug and said drug started killing people, you’d want to know why it happened and who let it happen, right?
If a surgeon got drunk and operated on a patient for a routine procedure and said patient died, even though it shouldn’t have happened, you’d want to know what happened, right? If the surgeon was indeed drunk, you’d want to make sure he never operated on anyone every again.
If a loved one of yours died unnecessarily (and that’s a key word, right there) because if negligence on the part of someone who should know better, shouldn’t we know who is responsible?
If something went wrong, as it obviously did here, it’s not only natural to find someone to “blame” (which is the White House’s word), it’s our duty to find those responsible. It is. It’s why we’re still after al Quada, after all.
So please don’t argue about finding blame. If someone didn’t do their job and let us down, then that’s what we have to do.
He interrupted her and said “zero tolerance” and left it at that.. I like to think the Guard was more understanding than he was.
Considering that the Guard has to take their orders, ultimately, from the President (being as he is CinC of the military), I tend to think actions speak louder than words.
What’s worse is thousands of people stranded, no food or water, no medical help, no protection (people were raped and killed down there) and no law and order. They sat there for days, or didn’t you watch the reports?
You do know that the folks who’ve been looting and rioting in New Orleans have been shooting at rescue helicopters? Help was there to get them out and they didn’t want it.
And that’s on HIM, the President. He’s our dean of law and order and the buck stops with him.
In his own words, the government’s response was inadequate and he’s the head of the government so the buck stops with him.
That is absolutely not true. The President is not the head of the government, he’s just the most visible figure in it. And even if he were the head of the national government, this kind of crisis is meant to be dealt with on a local level. As in, the State of Louisiana. Bush is not the head of the State of Louisiana, nor is he–in any way–responsible for poor decisions made by the governor of said state.
Fact: It’s the local and state who are supposed to respond first. The federal government can only come in when asked. Question: When did Louisiana ask the feds to help? When did Florida last year?
Fact: The levees were designed to withstand a level three hurricane. They were last beefed up years ago and then left alone because there were other, more pressing needs. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050901corps,1,7189346.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
Fact: People started blaming President Bush the day the hurricane hit NO.
Fact: What Barbara Bush said, while not what I’m sure she meant, is inexcusable.
Fact: There is plenty of blame to go around. This applies on the local, state, and federal level. The local level is responsible for making sure everyone can evacuate is need be. The feds could have been standing by waiting to be invited in. (Until then, their hands really were tied according to States Rights laws.)
Fact: The time to figure out who is to blame is afterwards. Right now, time and energy should be devoted to helping those in need. Later we can worry about how things should have gone better.
Fact: We need to figure out how things should have gone better at every possibly level of the process, because to let something like this happen again is inexcusable.
Mark
One last thing I forgot. (Yes, even after that comments hijack. Sorry, Lee.)
My understanding is that getting food and water and other necessities is not considered looting. Looting, by definition is taking what you don’t need, like computers or TV or other things. Taking food is legal, although you are supposed to pay for it later. Taking things you don’t need is never legal and needs to have a zero tolerance policy.
Anyone else know if this is true?
Mark
<>
Those “pressing needs” were tax cuts for the extremely rich, an unnecessary war, and outrageous bits of pork like a $250 million dollar bridge in Alaska which serves the needs of 50 people (and the powerful Republican senator from Alaska).
It’s my understanding that FEMA has turned away tons of incoming aid and supplies over this past week and change. It’s kind of hard to watch people defending FEMA for working to their ‘limits’ when they’re repeatedly turning away needed materials.
In what was a harsh and possibly misguided statement by Kanye West may have been a good point in hiding. There may be more of a caste system in America than we want to believe.
A friend on a message board elsewhere who lives in one of the hard hit areas has one friend who says the Red Cross is doing everything right and FEMA is nothing but a pain. Yet another friend in a nearby town says that the Red Cross can do no right and FEMA is the best thing since sliced bread.
Which makes us all wonder, what was the best thing before sliced bread?
Mark
Fact: The governor of Louisiana declared a state of emergency on 8/26 and requested help from the feds on 8/28.
Fact: Bush strong-armed Congress into cutting funding for levee repair two years ago so that he could pay for the war.
Fact: Nobody blamed Bush until five days went by with no action and the Mayor of NO got on the radio and BEGGED for help.
Fact: NOW is the time to find out who is to blame. America has a very short memory. If we wait two months, nobody will remember or care who’s to blame and it’ll all just happen over again.
I should clarify what Bush was being blamed for. He was being blamed for a hurricane hitting NO on 8/28. I’m not joking. When it starts off with that that early, it’s hard to take anything else seriously.
Mark
Damn it, Mark, how many times does it have to be said? I stated specifically that I don’t blame him for the storm, but for how he dealt with the aftermath of the storm. That’s been said time and time again – Countless others have said the same, IN THE MEDIA – by continuing to insist that we are blaming him for the storm, which we are most certainly NOT, you do insult not only to us who are in this discussion thread with you, but to the many people that died DAYS after the storm had passed New Orleans and Biloxi – damn it, it’s been said again and again that the federal response TO THE STORM was inadequate (Bush’s own words) to unrehensible (mine and many others) I don’t know of ANYONE who’s blamed HIM for the STORM except YOU!
I don’t know what else to say, except that I cannot take anyone who ignores the obvious seriously at all. Perhaps I should recuse myself from this discussion before I get too personal, but you really need to do more research.
You do know that the folks who’ve been looting and rioting in New Orleans have been shooting at rescue helicopters? Help was there to get them out and they didn’t want it.
Actually, this never happened.
Sure, it was all over the news, but no pilots reported being shot at. The original report came from an ambulance driver who was rumor-mongering.
A spokeswoman for the FAA tried to dispell the story, but it won’t go away.
Fact: People started blaming President Bush the day the hurricane hit NO.
Blaming him for the hurricane? Who cares? That doesn’t demonstrate anything about the legitimate questions about his administration.
He deserves blame for the things he controlled. He deserves blame for putting Michael Brown at the head of FEMA. He deserves blame for the food distribution center that was set up for his visit to the disaster site, then torn down when he left. He deserves blame for pulling firefighters off their rescue mission so they could be photographed with him.
Since my post will be deleted for using proper reassoning with these Bush shills why not just let them have it?
“He was being blamed for a hurricane hitting NO on 8/28. I’m not joking. When it starts off with that that early, it’s hard to take anything else seriously.”
You are a joke on yourself. What an idiot.
How about all of FEMA attending a wedding in Greece? These are incompetent self-serving bureaucrats. Shills for the Bush agenda of gutting services in favor of his personal interests. Welcome to 1885 revisited.
Joshua,
I never said anyone in this thread blamed Bush for the hurricane. But when people blamed Bush for something he had no control over, it makes it hard for me to take other people’s arguements against him seriously. I’m sorry, that’s just the way I am.
Look, I’ll admit that there is plenty of blame to go around to Bush as well as the Governor of LA and the Mayor of NO. Heck, I’m hearing on the TV news right now that there is currently an arguement between the Gov. and Mayor over whether NO has to be evacuated or not.
We aren’t going to know what really happened for months. It’s too soon for me to be forming an opinion on how much of the blame anyone is getting. And I blame the news media for reporting rumors instead of facts. And blame politians for trying to make this into a political advantage for themselves. Can we vote all of them out of office?
Mark
Actually, this never happened.
Sure, it was all over the news, but no pilots reported being shot at. The original report came from an ambulance driver who was rumor-mongering.
A spokeswoman for the FAA tried to dispell the story, but it won’t go away.
That’s actually good to hear. I was really depressed to hear that story, so I’m glad it isn’t true.
Mark, you stated it as FACT that Bush was being blamed for the hurricane itself. That was your statement, right there, no one else’s, and then you said when he gets blame for that, you can’t take anything else (which we can only assume to be this discussion we are having) seriously.
You stated something as fact when in reality it is far from it.
It’s not fact that Bush is blamed for the hurricane itself. That’s a rumor, and it’s not coming from the left side of politics. The right is spinning it to incite conservatives to fight the upcoming critisicm. For a balanced look at things, visit mediamatters.org if you’d like the truth of it.
And no, it is NOT too soon, it’s never to soon to find who is responsible for the easily avoidable deaths which occurred after the storm, in fact, time is now, we don’t wait – we hit while the evidence is hot.
When people say things like that, it gets me steamed, it suggests our anger is frivolous and unwarrented – I just a moment agao got off the phone with someone in LA, and while they want help, they also want to know that those responsible for the government’s screw up, be it local or federal, is going to have their ass handed to them. To say we’ll deal with that later is silly, because it suggests that accountability and responsibilty don’t get top billing and in our country of law and order, it does. Of course we’re going to keep helping folks in need down there, but there’s no shortage of people in Washington that couldn’t just as well find who screwed up and fire them, is there? It doesn’t mean that all of us who aren’t there can’t work it out for ourselves with reason and debate after we send checks to the REd Cross, can we? To say we’ll worry about blame later suggests to me that you want people to stop talking about it and that really burns me. We should help the people in need, we should do something about what happened to them and we absolutely gotta keep talking about it. We have a corrupt government and it’s on us to keep them honest.
Look, you seem to be a civil guy and you, for some reason, appear to like Bush – like him all you want, he may be a nice guy, but he’s a terrible President and there is a load of empirical evidence in support of that hypothesis, starting with but not ending with Katrina.
Okay, I said I was done and I obviously couldn’t contain myself.
Alice, I was also relieved to hear it. A little annoyed, too, that the story had been repeated for so long that it gained a life of its own. When the media started reporting that NOLA residents fired on contractors, and that the military escort returned fire, killing several attackers, my Bee Ess alarm went off. Sure enough, the contractors were denying the story the very next day, saying they were riding down the street when they heard gunfire from some blocks away.
It’s amazing how these stories grow.
Carstairs:
I never said anyone in this thread blamed Bush for the hurricane. But when people blamed Bush for something he had no control over, it makes it hard for me to take other people’s arguements against him seriously. I’m sorry, that’s just the way I am.
Mark, you do realize that all these words that appears on your computer are written by completely different people? In fact, I’ll wager that most of them are written by people living in different places all over the world. Maybe even as many as two or three.
If it’s your intention to seek out the lamest posts and then try to hang them around the neck of everyone who disagrees with you, you aren’t going to get (or deserve, really) much respect.
You seem like a nice guy, though, and I’d like to give you some advice: If that’s just the way you are, change yourself.
And Joshua: Too much black.
🙂
What Harry said plus,
“I’m sorry, that’s just the way I am.”
That certainly is: illogical as is the typical person of your political persuasion. They believe as opposed to think. The conclusions are there a priori and like their leader they disregard pertinent facts they don’t like and resort to irrelevant fallacies as premises for cause and effect.
That certainly is the way you are and about half the duped country alongside you. We’re paying the price now in spades all over the world, and at home when the bill comes due. You’ll ignore that too.
Harry,
I wish 😉
Harry,
I wish 😉
Maybe I haven’t been making myself clear here. Yes, there is blame that can be laid at FEMA and the federal government’s feet. But things like this make it clear that there is plenty to go around to state and local levels. Everyone seems intent to blame Bush and no one else. When they started before the hurricane hit, I rolled my eyes.
Yes, I know those are writen by different people. But when someone want to blame Bush everytime they sneeze, it makes it difficult to take others seriously without lots of facts.
Anyway, the reason I came over here was to post this link. As I’ve been saying, the whole story has yet to come out and anyone who makes up their minds too early is going to need to reopen them.
http://www.radioblogger.com/#000967
Mark,
You said FACT – Bush is being blamed for the hurricane itself.
What’s not clear about that? Except that it’s not true and certainly not a statement made by anyone in this discussion, nor anyone in any of the respected mainstream media. You shouldn’t post facts when they are not truth the facts of the matter.
In addition, you keep using that “fact” as a stick to keep other points of view at bay regarding this discussion and tragedy- so which one of us has made up his mind and is not open?
You’re upset because folks are blaming Bush for various things, I get that. What aren’t you getting? Damn man, I don’t know how else to put it. HE SCREWED UP. You like him and you wish it were not so. I don’t like him, but I also wish it were not so. Otherwise, more people might be alive.
Sure, there’s more to the story and it will come out and I’m sure other people screwed up, you bet – but the guy with the MOST important job on the food chain also SCREWED UP and I’ve decided, right here and now, that I’m not going to let anyone forget it or cover it up or excuse it, because it’s frigging true. To maintain otherwise is the worse kind insult to this country, to those that died and to those that survived and to those of us trying to help.
It’s his job to be blamed, that’s why he’s there, to run this country and when he does it well, he gets praise (he rolled in it after the WTC attacks, do you recall) and when he doesn’t do it well, when he falls asleep at the switch, puts unqualified people in important jobs, doesn’t pay attention or lies to us and gets caught at it (“no one anticipated the levees would break”), then he gets blamed and how dare you to suggest that we don’t have the right to do that very thing, shame on you, sir. You should be ashamed of yourself for even SUGGESTING it’s inappropriate not to BLAME him for doing something WRONG! shame on you.
And here’s a link for you –
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm
20 quotes from folks in power about Katrina. Those are real quotes from real people – they would be funny if they weren’t miserably true. Read these and think about it, please. Because it’s obvious to me that you’re locked into one point of view and determined to stay there.
“Because it’s obvious to me that you’re locked into one point of view and determined to stay there.”
Hi, Mr. Pot. Nice to meet you.
When am I going to learn that it causing nothing but frustration for both sides when I decide to debate with someone as stubbornly convienced of their side as I am of mine?
Mark, I am not closed-minded. I am also not absolving other politicians of blame.
But I don’t live in NOLA. I don’t have any input into who is the mayor of New Orleans or the governor of LA. I do vote for president. He’s my elected official, and I’m going to speak against him when he screws up, which is too too often.
“Quit picking on Bush!” is a non-starter. Pointing out other peoples’ screw-ups doesn’t absolve Bush of his mistakes and it never will. And since this is a thread *about* the Bush family and their attitudes to hurricane victims, pointing fingers at, say, the state homeland security director (who deserves it for keeping the Red Cross out of NOLA) is off-topic.
And I’m sorry, but it sounds to me as if, when faced with criticism that makes you uncomfortable, you seek out the most ridiculous version of that criticism and use that to dismiss all reasonable points that you don’t like.
That won’t wash.
Frankly, if someone among the loyal opposition wanted to use that tactic against Bush’s defenders, you are the poster they’d use as a cudgel. Please elevate the level of your discourse.
Convince me he DIDN’T screw up, Mark, and then maybe we can start – I’ve been debating, and doing a civil job of it – what points do you have that Bush, Brown (and Fema) did everything in their power to help those that needed help starting Aug 28 and beyond? The only point you’ve made is that you don’t think we should BLAME BUSH but you DON’T SAY WHY, except that someone on some obscure site blamed him for the actualy STORM ITSELF which you repeated AS FACT here and followed that with your statement that you can’t take anything else anyone says about him seriously because of that obscure rumor. You then said, that’s the way I am, so be it.
Hell, throw me some facts that show what a great job Bush did, I’m ready, I could use some good news. Otherwise, if all you have do say is that we shouldn’t blame him because A) other people screwed up too or B) people keep blaming him and you think he’s been blamed enough or then perhaps you should just shut up – you haven’t been debating me, you haven’t done anything of the kind – it’s not a debate where we can score points on arguments, it’s about what’s right and wrong, what should have been done and what shouldn’t have been done – that’s what this is, it’s not a debate, pepsi vs coke, it’s about accountability.
Damn it, I’m not giving up. Go on. Show me. Give me some hard evidence that he did a good job. Myself and many others have given you a load of evidence to the contrary. Your consistant response has been, “don’t blame him” and how dare you play the victim here, “oh, no one listens to the conservative point of view, blah blah blah” – it makes me ill and it’s insulting, especially sense the majority of us here have made an effort to be reasonable and yet you keep repeating the shame mantra “don’t play the blame game” and “fact – Bush was blamed for the storm itself” – damn!
How many times does it have to be said? People have DIED because of NEGLIGENCE and that’s something that should never be TOLERATED!
I’m stubborn, yes – closed minded, no – I didn’t say a word when Bush sent troops to Afganistan because it was the right thing to do. Don’t you dare suggest that I put my political view ahead of what’s right when you’ve done that consistantly in this discussion, one post after another. Again I say, shame on you, sir – you should be ashamed of yourself.
Joshua
Could not have said it better, but I really believe Mark just argues to argue. It is almost too easy to get him going.
Hell, throw me some facts that show what a great job Bush did, I’m ready, I could use some good news.
I know I’m not Mark, but can I offer some evidence to suggest that Bush is not deserving of quite such a black brush as the one with which he is being painted?
Fact: Bush strong-armed Congress into cutting funding for levee repair two years ago so that he could pay for the war.
The federal government was well aware of this, yet it cut funding to repair the levees a couple of years ago to funnel the money elsewhere.
I saw this point a couple of times, and I saw it brilliantly addressed in another blog, from which I will be quoting heavily. You can look up the specific entry here if you wish.
So, here goes. The problem that the Bush administration encountered in the Army Corps of Engineers funding was that they would get bukus of money to start new projects, but not a whole lot to finish the old ones. Work just kept building up, needing more and more money to maintain, and never getting finished. Obviously, this could not go on. So, this was the solution offered.
“The Bush administration decided to apply a cost-benefit analysis process to construction. Projects that did not provide a return on investment would be terminated (such as increasing lock size when river traffic did not support the larger sizes). In this way high priority projects were actually completed and funding levels could be reduced without impacting needed construction.”
And from the White House Budget Report in 2003, “…In 2002, over three-fourths of the funding for congressionally added projects in the Corps’ construction program were for projects that are inconsistent with long-established policies for the Corps of Engineers, which should not be part of the Corps program. These include over 30 of the 47 new construction projects started in 2002. It would require about $5 billion to complete all the projects added by the Congress that are inconsistent with Corps policies—that’s $5 billion diverted from nationally important navigation, flood damage reduction, and environmental restoration projects already underway.”
So, yes, the amount of money going to the Army Corps of Engineers as a whole went down, but it began to be used where it needed to be, like levee maintenance and repair, instead of just going to start more and more new stuff.
Furthermore, the funding that they have received over the past several years has been relatively stable (barring years with heavy flooding, in which case, funding went up), and the proposed budget for 2006 is higher than the initial 2005 budget.
Just a small point, but I did want to bring it up.
The problem with naive wingers like Mark C. is when they present a fact that is false, (determined by actual research not opinion) they refuse to acknowledge it. They shill for their heros. My points are rock solid logic based on fact. Yours are a house cards run by rich appointees using PR to mask over and pass blame off to others.
No disaster declared by Gov. Blanco is a case in point: false. No one showed up because of the normal state of fiddling. Bush called for an official day of prayer on the 16th. Yeah that’s some real action. let’s just wish upon a star that the idiot in charge gets a clue. Just wait for that one to come true.
Bad arguments are eviscerated on the Internet and on Op-Ed papges of the nation’s papers. Someone loses and it “ain’t us” on this side of the spectrum.
The problem is as Mark says: arguing with believers and ideologues like he and Meade here really is useless. Any difference of opinion is considered an assault on their honor. A weak argument is no honor.
John S. Meade came to my blog making claims about the world being created in six literal days and the Israelites lived with dinosaurs. Now THAT’S a bad argument to have with a biological scientist working for the administration as I currently am. Personal attacks are all he has.
Go back to peddling “Intelligent Design.” It’s cut from the same cloth as this litany of fallacies. Facts kill both dead.
Alice,
The bulk of the conversation, if not all of it, has been regarding how Bush DEALT with the aftermath of the hurricane. I, for one, don’t think I brought up the federal cuts to the levees at all – though I did note that Bush said “no one thought the levees would break” which was, and still is, and absolute lie . . . if you look at the timeline of his activities (which Jon Stewart helpfully chronicled with humor and anger both) he was obviously not concerned about the people there when it happened, the day after it happened, nor hte day after that – it was only when pictures started appearing in the news and outrage in the media did he get his lying ass down there – and nor did he instal an experienced and competent man in charge of FEMA – are you going to make a case for Brown?
This is a man who’s whole campaign last year was based on the idea that he is ideal for protecting us, that he showed he can handle crisis and deal with emergencie and he FAILED miserably – all this and you’re talking to me about numbers? Senior citizens stranded in wheel chairs for days at a stadium, no food or water, no medical care or police protection from thugs, and you’re talking to me about NUMBERS?
Here’s number. Five. It took him FIVE frigging days to get things going down there. That is unacceptable. He was asleep at the wheel or he doesn’t care about poor people or especially poor black people (did you not note that he seemed more concerned about Trent Lott’s house than anyone else’s) – when Nancy Pelosi approached Bush in Washington two days ago, she asked him about firing Brown, head of FEMA. Bush’s response? “What for?” For what didn’t go right last week (in New Orleans) Pelosi responded. “What didn’t go right?” Bush asked.
What didn’t go right? This was Sept 6th that he said this, so he’s still under the impression everything was handled JUST FINE.
Bush doesn’t seem to GET that hundreds if not thousands died AFTER the storm because no one came to help them! How can you actually, actively defend a man such as this? Have you no sense of compassion or integrity? You should also be ashamed of yourself. I’m ashamed that there are Americans such as you and Mark that care FAR more about an empty-headed figure head than what happens to thousands of poor people left homeless. I have NO respect for you and you should be ashamed. You take your small point and hold it close, because it’s all you have left of your heart.
Never quote a wingnut blog for accurate information as this commenter there says:
less funding
This is typical winger shell game stuff from the non-clever. You have facts and facts with accurate context. Come on give me a percentage of GDP. Less funding is less funding. He cut the programs and even John Breaux claimed last night he didn’t fight hard enough to stop them.
This is deep in the heart of wingerville logic. Best get back to the cave where all thought is one. Alice your source isn’t qualified to analyze and manipulate the facts. He, and you fail.
Hey Joshua what’s the source of that Pelosi conversation with Bush? Priceless Bush-league cluelessness. Duh.
The bulk of the conversation, if not all of it, has been regarding how Bush DEALT with the aftermath of the hurricane. I, for one, don’t think I brought up the federal cuts to the levees at all…
I know. I’ve been reading the comments. I didn’t accuse you of bringing it up, or of saying anything that you didn’t say. Both those comments came from different posts, but were by the same person who goes by the name of Robert Gregory Browne.
…you’re talking to me about numbers?
Yes. Numbers that demonstrate that before Katrina even existed, Bush (or people working in his name, anyway) did what could be done, as federal government, to prevent the disaster that has occured. If I were quoting numbers of dead people, that would be okay. Why is not okay to quote numbers of dollars that are ultimately part of your taxes that were used to try and stop this before it started?
Here’s a number. Five. It took him FIVE frigging days to get things going down there. That is unacceptable.
And again, federal versus local. Louisiana should have had their act together. The fact that they didn’t is not something you can blame on Bush. He is not High King of the United States, he’s only President. As such, his power is limited. There are about three things I can think of off the top of my head that Louisiana officials could have done to lessen the crisis that they did not do. And this is when they knew things were going to get bad. If you must get mad at somebody, get mad at the mayor of New Orleans for not using the 2000+ school buses to start shipping people out of the city before those buses were flooded under. Get mad at the governor of Louisiana for refusing federal aid, even at Bush’s urging to do so.
Have you no sense of compassion or integrity? You should also be ashamed of yourself. I’m ashamed that there are Americans such as you and Mark that care FAR more about an empty-headed figure head than what happens to thousands of poor people left homeless. I have NO respect for you and you should be ashamed. You take your small point and hold it close, because it’s all you have left of your heart.
You don’t know me. You don’t know where I’m from, what I’m like, how old I am, who I know, whether I have family or friends in the Gulf Coast, what I have done since Katrina to help the victims, where I have represented this country and to whom, what kind of charity work I have done in the past, or what those who know me think of me. You disagree with my perspective so you assume I don’t care.
I respect your position, and you have every right to hold it. Your ad hominem argument, however, is unimpressive and does not do the logic and passion of the rest of your position justice.
What’s FEMA’S job, Alice? What is their fricking job? You’re blaming locals only?
You bet a lot of the local government officials dropped the ball, LA has one of the most corrupt state governments in the South, according the research I’ve done. So what? Is your position that Katrina is a local problem only and not a national disaster? If that’s your position, it’s absurd. Why was FEMA even involved?
As Harry said, I don’t live in NOLA, so I don’t vote for the mayor there, I live in NYC and as has been said continously by this president, we had a tragedy here, too. And it didn’t take five days for Bush to get here and get on the bullhorn, did it? The death toll in LA and Biloxi will be worse than that.
I don’t know you, nor do you know me . . . but that doesn’t mean I don’t have enough information to make the judgement call – there are people who make ignorant statements on the street quite often and I don’t need to take their histories to know that they’re not thinking things through (especially when it comes to racism, homophobia, the like) – I’m making my judgment based on your decision to give Bush a PASS on how he handled this mess, how you’ve reacted, and all that. You are trying to distract criticism from him by pointing out local problems, anything but Bush and it really pisses me off.
You’re honestly telling me that since NOLA was a disaster waiting to happen, it’s all right for Bush to wait FIVE days to do something about it? That it’s all right to go on Good Morning America and make false statements about the levees? That it’s all right to put a man with no training or experience in charge of FEMA (and it should be noted Brown waited five hours to do anything, and his biggest priority was for FEMA members to “project a positive image”) and not hold him accountable when he leaves citizens trapped for DAYS?
If that’s YOUR argument, it definitely does not hold water or logic.
And Bush’s powers ARE NOT limited as the locals, didn’t he cut his vacation short last year to run to Terri Schiavo’s side? He’s the most powerful man in this country’s government, don’t give me any garbage how his hands were tied, he was goofing around on a guitar on Aug 30th in San Diego.
Go on. Tell me Bush did everything right in dealing with this National tragedy after it happened. There is no logic, no evidence to suggest that he did and it makes me honestly angry that you suggest that he did – I’m going to tell you again and again, regardless of your history or your charity work, you should be ashamed. If you are not angry or upset by how our government dealt with this NATIONAL TRAGEDY, you should be ashamed of yourself. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Mark York,
the Pelosi story was in the New York papers today, which is how I first heard of it – but it’s also on mediamatters.org (a site I highly recommend for anyone, regardless of your political orientation) and the huffingtonpost.com and countless other sites.
And another thing, I haven’t found any source that shows the Gov of LA turned down federal aid – what I did find is that she refused to turn over the National Guard to the federal authorities because she didn’t trust FEMA or Brown or thought the troops would be used wisely by the federales, nothing about the Governer turning down federal aid –
and I have found that FEMA turned away American Red Cross help and supplies in the early days of the aftermath. If you’re saying that the Gov turned down federal aid, source it. I haven’t found or heard anything like that so I’m naturallly a bit skeptical. Anyone else hear about the Governer of LA turning down federal aid? If you have a reputable source, I’d like to know what it is for my own edification, I’m not closeminded, just pissed off . . . is it real? Or is it another one of those stories, like the shots at National Guard helicopters, that make the rounds but with no base in truth?
If you are not angry or upset by how our government dealt with this NATIONAL TRAGEDY, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Especially when my time has been devoted to doing what I could to help the victims. I never said Bush did everything right. I do believe he is not the main person to get upset at in this case. He’s not even one of the major players. That doesn’t make him perfect or even close to perfect. My contention is that too much blame is being laid at his feet, not that he necessarily doesn’t deserve any at all. And no, you can’t vote for the Louisiana state government. That doesn’t mean you can’t be active and loud in your condemnation of them.
Don’t you tell me that the fact that Bush didn’t personally do what other people should have been doing caused deaths just because he’s the “big and all-mighty president”. In your own example, didn’t Terri Schiavo die anyway because Bush was ultimately powerless to get to her?
I will go hunt for the source of the Governor of Louisiana turning away federal aid tomorrow. And, just for the record, I will publically say right now that if it comes from FOX news, I will retract the statement. On good days, I buy about 25% of what they report. I don’t trust ABCNNBCBS any more than I do them, but that is neither here nor there.
Well, perhaps we should try and get the course back to civility – I honestly don’t see how you think that Bush is not a major player in all this . . . I can surely understand your anger at the LA government (and let’s not forget Missippi, either) but certainly you must admit that it is FEMA’s sole job to deal with situations such as this and that Mike Brown is inadquate in his role of the head of FEMA. Bush appointed him. That’s on Bush.
Really Alice, the federal government, and Bush especially, plays a part in all of our major disasters, how they deal with it and help us deal with them, whether it’s Columbine or Hurricane Andrew or Katrina or the WTC, he’s the face of our nation and the one that speaks to us and for us, the one that tells us what to worry about or what not to worry about – he’s the one that’s supposed to protect all of us, regardless of the state we live in . . . he is a major player. Like it or not, it’s true.
I don’t know your feelings for Bush, maybe they’re the same as mine, but I agree with what Harry said earlier. Bush should not get a pass on this just because some lower politicians screwed up too. He’s the head man, in the words of Harry Truman, the buck stops with him.
FEMA did not keep the Red Cross out of NOLA; the state dept of homeland security did that.
Excuse my lack of caps. My wife is giving me the eye because I’m supposed to be in bed sleeping blissfully.
FEMA has, however, kept thousands of rescue workers out of NOLA, and continues to do so today.
Anyway, Bush cut levee repair funding by 80%. When Mike Parker, the head of the Army Corps of Engineers, objected to the cuts in testimony before congress, Bush fired him. Furthermore, the planning for a NOLA flood was privatized. Where are those plans? I’m sure they didn’t include refusing to send rescue workers into a disaster area.
Frankly, at this point, FEMA seems to be spending all of its energy on political damage control. They refuse to allow photos of corpses, claiming that survivors might recognize a dead relative in a photo. Of course, if the bodies have been in the water for over a week, they are unlikely to be recognizably human, let alone identifiable by photo.
They are using Blackwater USA, a private company that supplies mercanaries to the Iraq War, to patrol the city. Firefighters are kept cooling their heals while private mercenaries are traveling around the city w/ M16s.
This is a disaster. This continues to be a disaster, and it seems to be getting worse. The stupid media seems to be enamored of these interviews with wacky locals who don’t want to evacuate. Where is a decent timeline of the events of the last two weeks? I’ve seen some on blogs here and there, but they strike me as dubious. They’re either deliberately slanted to the left or right, or they take unreliable information from bad sources (like, FEMA).
Has anyone seen the bios on Michael Brown’s FEMA deputies? They are also cronies with no emergency experience. And what flimsy experience Brown has actually turns out to be fabricated. His government bio said he was an assistant city manager for emergencies. In fact, he was an admin assisstant to the manager. The dude answered phones and made copies.
That city manager says that he did a good job though, and was very loyal.
Bush values loyalty.
Alice, do you want to know why Bush is taking such a beating here and elsewhere? It’s not because people hate him (although many do, including me. I am honestly ashamed that he’s my president, and the very sound of his voice sickens me).
It’s because this disaster came straight out of his policies. It came straight out of his tendency to reward his cronies, to fire people who tell him what he doesn’t want to hear, to shut out all voices of disagreement, and it came straight out of his inability to succeed.
The only thing the guy has ever run successfully were his three election campaigns, and I have my doubts that he was running those campaigns himself. I strongly suspect he was pretty much a front man.
I don’t think Bush is a stupid man, but I think his values are all screwed up. He places too much emphasis on loyalty and not enough on competence.
His policies and appointments have killed a lot of people. And once again, his administration is doing their damndest to make sure we never see the bodies.
Joshua, I know you’re upset. This whole thing is upsetting. But you hurt your cause with the wild rhetoric. The internet isn’t the place for it.
Okay. I have to go to bed. I’m exhausted and my wife is annoyed. ‘Night, guys.
Good points, Harry . . . especially the one at me. I am supremely pissed and the first to admit it.
Have you read this, Joshua?
I hesitate to post it, because so many of the other posts there are about what’s been going on, how badly things have gone, and so on. But this post is helpful.
“Get mad at the governor of Louisiana for refusing federal aid, even at Bush’s urging to do so.”
This is patently false and no doubt a creation of FOXNEWS implying such a thing was true. It isn’t and fails on its face given the no declaration of emergency failure of validity.
I hadn’t combed through the papers for the Pelosi story as I was in the wilderness all day. Mediamatters is good at debunking conservative drivel and lies.
Thanks Harry, I’ve read other things like it – and lest it seem I’m a frothing maniac, you are indeed right, as is the article, that a person can get caught up in the anger obsessively to the point of actually hurting the cause and / or themselves. This is why I meditate and work out and play nba live . . . a good balance is key to a good life.
That being said, I’m starting to believe that it may be time to show some justifiable anger – one thing the supporters of this administration is good at is spitting anger out. I think, perhaps, that it may be time to fight back. I’m supremely pissed about the Katrina aftermath, sure – but I’m more pissed at the deliberate ignorance of Bush supporters – perhaps we will never crack the self-imposed shell many pull over themselves, but that doesn’t mean we should walk away every time, right?
There’s a time for reason and, when that fails, a time for standing up for your beliefs and even fighting for them. The Bush administration hasn’t won its position via reason, they did it by shouting down anyone in their path. Maybe it’s time to scream back, when reason fails – you tell me – can you reason with someone who refuses to acknowlege that form of communication? Can you talk evolution with a fundalmentalist fanatic?
I don’t know, I’m not going to pretend to know everything, but I do know that something needs to be done to better our country and what it is supposed to stand for, I really do.
John Rogers wrote an excellent essay on it just yesterday (here’s the link – http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/09/somehow-we-have-grown-too-small-for.html) where he wonders if America the country is now the proper home for America the idea –
I don’t know, but I really think that as a society we’re at one of those defining moments, like we were during sufferage and civil rights (going back to the civil war and the revolution itself) where the choices we make now (and the battles we choose to fight or not fight) will define us as a society for decades to come.
I’d like to be able to tell my kids that I was on the right side of things, like the folks who marched for civil rights.
And as a writer it’s sort of strange that the absurd twists and turns of the imaginary life in my creative mind has trouble competing with the absurdity of real life.
Lee, I think it’s obvious you’ve hit a very sore spot here. Take a deep breath, everybody.
I saw my name being tossed about in one of the posts and was a little surprised by that. I’ve merely stated the facts, folks. I’m sorry if that offended anyone.
I’ve tried very hard to keep my comments non-political, because this issue IS non-political. Trying to turn this into a case of Bush-bashing is a waste of time. People from all political persuasions are NOT happy with the way the federal government responded to this disaster and they believe that our leaders should be held accountable for their inaction.
So rather than get all hot and bothered about who is bashing whom, why don’t we simply look at the facts and determine what went wrong?
The Bush family is definitely in need of a “token Liberal”