You Don’t Know Jack

Cynthia Potts discovered Jack:

Jack is a magazine by fanfic writers, designed to showcase homoerotic fiction.
And even they don’t want any fanfiction! But the kicker: To submit, you have to
have been a fanfic writer at some point.

Translation: We only want lazy
thieves to contribute to our magazine. People who don’t see a problem with
stealing other writer’s work and perverting the intent of the story. It helps if
they’re so clueless that they don’t know the stealing is wrong, but are actually
proud of the theft.

This seemed just too bizarre to be true. But it’s for real.

Welcome to JACK, an ezine of original homoerotic fiction written by Fanfiction
Writers. The staff of JACK firmly believes in the artistic validity of textual
erotica. Our goal is to create a zine that reflects our enthusiasm and love for
homoerotic (both male/male and female/female) literature while also showcasing a
wide range of talented authors…

…The only requirement for our authors (beyond writing good fiction and being of
legal age) is that you must have written fanfiction at some time. Links would be
appreciated. Submit all stories in plain text format in the body of an email to:
keystrokepress@gmail.com with
JACK Submission in the subject header. Because of virus concerns, all
attached files will be deleted unread.

So fanfiction really is practice for writing…if you want to write for an online magazine featuring homoerotic stories. 

93 thoughts on “You Don’t Know Jack”

  1. Well, here’s my question: how would they know if you’ve been a fanfic writer? Don’t most fanfic writers use some sort of pseudonym or handle for their stories? I realize that it’s not the largest hurdle to leap, but it seems like an awfully weird requirement for a magazine that is not itself fanfic.

    Reply
  2. how would they know if you’ve been a fanfic writer? Don’t most fanfic writers use some sort of pseudonym or handle for their stories?
    Um, those ARE pseudonyms listed for that magazine. Well known in their own corner of the world. Credits list is very familiar…
    BUT – the only people gonna read this are other fanfiction writers because… I’ll bet that a lot of those stories are fanfictions that have had a search and replace done. Now they can say they been published in a Real Live NON-fanfiction magazine.
    The reason they don’t want fanfiction is because money is changing hands and well, fanfic writers write it for the LOVE and not the MONEY and don’t want their backsides sued or a C & D sent to their home.
    So here’s my (insert famous fandom pairings) slash story with (other names inserted). Give me my five bucks. Now I are a honest-to-god published author.
    Off to remove diet coca-cola snot spray from the monitor and coffee.

    Reply
  3. Congratulations, Lee. I’ve finally deduced the secret of whipping up a shitstorm of comments on a blog. Just keep writing posts slamming fanfic and it’s writers and POD and vanity published books.

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  4. Congratulations Lee. You’ve discovered the key to getting a shitstorm of comments on your blog. Just keep publishing messages slamming fanfic and it’s authors and POD and vanity presses.

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  5. You say “homoerotic” like it’s a bad thing.
    Yeah, I noticed that.
    Personally, I’m all for well done homoerotica. Badly done homoerotica stinks, but then so does badly done writing of any kind.

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  6. Haven’t you noticed that most of the fanfic haters on this blog are homophobes as well?
    “OMG, the evol fanficcers are writing the butt-sex!!! The author never intended that!”
    Everything would be half as bad if it weren’t (homo)erotic situations the fanfic writers put the authors’ characters in. And whenever someone mentions that a good portion of fic is GEN – there’s nothing but silence all around.
    Ach, Americans, still so uncultivated….
    kete

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  7. “BUT – the only people gonna read this are other fanfiction writers because… ”
    And there’s JACK’s downfall. Fanficcers seem to be under the impression that because they’re vocal, they’re legion. Unfortunately, so does everyone else.
    Led Zeppelin was loud, but there was only four of them. The number of people worldwide into a particular segment of fanfic would probably have trouble filling a bar for a Thursday night set by your average garage band. Those who read it are even fewer. If they’re going to read anything outside that realm, it’s going to be 1.) something actually tied to the property they’ve made into a religion, 2.) something similar to their favorite universe, or 3.) a writer who might actually display something resembling talent. And #3 is almost always going to ditch his or her odd little hobby for something completely different from whatever fandom drove him or her to fanfic in the first place.

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  8. “The number of people worldwide into a particular segment of fanfic would probably have trouble filling a bar for a Thursday night set by your average garage band.”
    Depends on the fandom. There aren’t a lot of people writing fanfic in the “Ender’s Game” universe, so there, you’re probably right. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, are massive.
    “Those who read it are even fewer.”
    Not a chance. In the fanfic world, readers outnumber the writers by a sizable margin. If you go into fanfiction.net and start clicking user profiles at random, you’re far more likely to turn up profiles with no stories on them (those that were made in order to review stories) than you are to hit a profile where someone has actually written a thing or two.
    “If they’re going to read anything outside that realm, it’s going to be 1.) something actually tied to the property they’ve made into a religion”
    Not necessarily. I read and write Stargate fanfic, but I’ve never read the official books. I’ve heard they’re good, but I haven’t gotten around to them.
    “2.) something similar to their favorite universe”
    Again, not necessarily. I do read a lot of sci-fi and fantasy, but I also loved Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, which was about as far removed from the realm of sci-fi/fantasy as you can go.
    “3.) a writer who might actually display something resembling talent.”
    Doesn’t everybody want to avoid reading the scribblings of bad writers? Of course people are going to read from talented writers.
    “And #3 is almost always going to ditch his or her odd little hobby for something completely different from whatever fandom drove him or her to fanfic in the first place.”
    Again, not so. There are three people I can think of, off the top of my head, who started out writing fanfic. After publishing books, they continued writing fic along with their original works because it was an enjoyable hobby. One of these three runs her own fanfic archive. And they aren’t the only published authors who write fanfic. Sometimes authors who get published do ditch the fanfiction, but that isn’t always so. Sometimes they expand their writings.

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  9. Just to respond to Mark, I wouldn’t say that homoerotic fiction is my main focus. It’s a sizable portion of what I do, mainly because I’m good at it and it pays well. But I also write regular features for several regional newspapers, mainly in the building and remodeling and women’s section, sell to national mags whenever they’ll buy my work, and have the proverbial novel in progress. If you visit my blog, you’ll find links to my mainstream stuff scattered among all my ramblings, or you could google “By Cynthia Potts” to see my traditional work.
    Thank you, Lee, for sharing this tidbit. I figured a lot more people would see and appreciate it on your blog than on mine 🙂

    Reply
  10. “The number of people worldwide into a particular segment of fanfic would probably have trouble filling a bar for a Thursday night set by your average garage band.”
    Not really. Some fandoms are tiny, but the fic-reading population of fandoms like Buffy and Stargate probably number in the tens of thousands. Where it comes to massive fandoms like Star Trek, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc. you have writerships and readerships that number in the hundreds of thousands. A quick look at Fiction Alley, a Harry Potter fan fiction archive, shows them to have 75,000 registered members: that doesn’t even take into account the “lurkers” who read silently and don’t bother registering in order to leave feedback for stories. (Fiction Alley, I believe, only accepts PG13 het and gen – no scary homoerotica there.)
    “Those who read it are even fewer.”
    As Alice said, this is not actually true, although there is a wide community overlap between writers and readers. There are more readers than writers. There are more hits on some stories on certain archives than there are stories posted. Some stories can get in the hundreds of thousands of hits. Anyone who’s ever run an archive or known someone who has can tell you that. I know plenty of people who read it but don’t write it. Me, for instance.
    “”If they’re going to read anything outside that realm, it’s going to be 1.) something actually tied to the property they’ve made into a religion”
    This I simply don’t understand — outside what realm? The realm of fanfiction? Most people who write *book* fanfiction at least are hardcore, avid readers. They read everything. I know of fandoms who’ve developed book exchanges so that members could have access to huge quantities of books without bankrupting themselves. Of course, in book fandoms, there are no tie-in novels. As for television fandoms, my experience is that the hardcore fanficcers don’t care for the tie-in novels. Your mileage may vary.

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  11. Hi Lee,
    Back at ya, and all that.
    Well, here’s my question: how would they know if you’ve been a fanfic writer?
    I bet there’s a secret handshake.

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  12. I have nothing against gay literature or homosexuality.
    I find it fascinating that you could read the blog entry and read into it that I’m “saying homoerotic like it’s a bad thing.” That says more about your insecurities and prejudices than mine!
    Lee

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  13. “wrong. very very wrong.”
    A bit of digging reveals that they accept nothing but NC-17: i.e. no pornography or erotica. They have no provisions barring slash, it seems. This is germane to my point only in that: They have a huge membership/readership, and that membership/readership excludes those in the fandom who pretty much just read the porn. Which is, face it, a lot of people. The Sugar Quill has a huge membership as well, and they don’t accept erotica/porn/whatever you want to call it either.
    If you find Fiction Alley’s content objectionable, I believe the site admin already invited you to take it up with her. I am not responsible for their content and was using them simply as an example of a large non-erotica archive.

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  14. “A bit of digging reveals that they accept nothing but NC-17”
    Nothing that *is* NC-17 or above an R, sorry. It’s late. :>

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  15. I find it fascinating that you could read the blog entry and read into it that I’m “saying homoerotic like it’s a bad thing.” That says more about your insecurities and prejudices than mine!

    Come now, Lee.
    Considering your recent posts on the learning value of fanfiction and the way you wrote your entry above, are you really surprised that people read “homoerotic stories” with a negative tone?

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  16. Re: FA
    Two clicks reveals plenty of homoerotic content rated R that deserves an NC-17 tag. Also plenty of het content that deserves the same rating.
    Nobody in this thread, that I’ve noticed objects to homoerotic anything in general. Just wanted to clear up your very incorrect assertions regarding FA.
    The content of the site is the site owner’s problem, not mine.

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  17. “Two clicks reveals plenty of homoerotic content rated R that deserves an NC-17 tag. Also plenty of het content that deserves the same rating.”
    If you say so. I’ve read stories on the site off and on for a good amount of time and never found anything that you wouldn’t find in your average teen novel. If there is explicit content on the site, the admins should remove it as per their terms of service. There seems no reason not to report it. I would myself, if I’d ever seen any.

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  18. Why should homoerotic content of any variety or rating be a problem, Claire? Just because you are frightened of it doesn’t mean it really does any harm.
    kete

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  19. kete, give it a rest, nobody’s being homophobic, and nobody’s “afraid” of homoerotic content. Stop trying to make out that anti-fanficcers are bigoted or anti-anything else. I’d be surprised at your attitude if I hadn’t seen enough examples of it already.

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  20. Well, Jimbo, if you abuse a black person by calling him/her the N-word, you mustn’t wonder when you’re thought of as a racist, mustn’t you?
    So, if you abuse fanfiction writers by calling them all writers of homoerotic content, you mustn’t wonder when you’re called a homophobe.
    Btw, nigger is not a bad word, actually. It comes from the Latin “niger” which just means black.
    Erotic content of any variety is not a bad thing either – as far as I know sexuality is one of the two main driving forces of life. But perhaps the descendents of the puritans haven’t heard of that yet?
    Maligning sexuality in any of its forms is the same as if doubting the principle of life itself. Sex, like eating or drinking, is one of the great joys of life – whether you enjoy it only secretly in the closet or be upfront about it.
    kete

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  21. So, if you abuse fanfiction writers by calling them all writers of homoerotic content, you mustn’t wonder when you’re called a homophobe.

    If there’s nothing wrong with writing homoerotic fiction, why would you equate being called a writer of homoerotic fiction with being called a nigger? Sounds to me like you’re the homophobe, Kete.
    Oh, and by the way, nigger is an offensive word. Just like fag, kyke, and

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  22. Claire – I am still waiting for any links to anything NC-17 that you find on FA. Every day, we deal with removing links to NC-17 rated pages and stories that users post on our site, because we *do not allow NC-17 content* or direct links to anything NC-17, on FA. If something is there, we would really like to know about it. If it’s nothing you wouldn’t see in Pulp Fiction or Cruel Intentions, though, it’s R.
    On a note related to this general topic, I’m heading to LA for a few weeks, next week, so I was checking out the events at Book Soup. One of the things taking place there is “Jessica Kaye and contributors present and sign Meeting Across the River: Stories Inspired by the Haunting Bruce Springsteen Song” – here’s what BS says on their page:
    “Meeting Across the River,” from Bruce Springsteen’s Born to Run album, is a song whose lyrics that unfold like a noir fable, and this fable is the inspiration for Kaye’s smartly edited collections. Authors including Eric Garcia, Barbara Seranella, and Gregg Hurwitz have weighed in with original pieces inspired by this classic American story, each offering a fresh experiment with character and plot. (Bloomsbury)
    *************
    Are those stories each a fanfiction of a song? Is it sort of the reverse of Five For Fighting’s It’s Not Easy, which is a song about a book/movie character (Superman)? Do those of you who despise internet-distributed fanfic also despise books like the one edited by Ms Kaye? If not, why not?

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  23. Thank you, Heidi. I can certainly say I’ve never run across anything on FA I’d classify as above an R, if that. I’m a bit mystified by the ire directed at Fiction Alley, since it’s exactly the sort of fanfiction archive Lee et. al claim they have no problem with: an archive that houses fanfiction written in a fandom where the creator embraces and supports fanfiction and that adheres to the guidelines for fanfiction put forth by that creator (no pornography.)
    “If it’s nothing you wouldn’t see in Pulp Fiction or Cruel Intentions, though, it’s R.”
    How about nothing they wouldn’t find in the middle grade and teen sections at the bookstore? As has already been pointed out here by writers of teen fiction, if you want three-ways (Weetzie Bat), explicit sex (Looking for Alaska, Rats Saw God, Forever) or an entire book that centers around fifteen-year-old girls holding an oral sex party for the express purpose of seeing how many guys they can blow at once (Rainbow Party), look no further than the Teen Reads table at Barnes and Noble. Marketed to 12 and up.

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  24. They have Springsteen’s consent. They respect the artist. Fanficcers have no respect for the artist. That’s the difference.

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  25. I had no idea what fanfiction was or who did it, anything, until I saw this article. I skimmed through the site and I’m still trying to figure it out, honestly.

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  26. I had no idea what fanfiction was or who did it, anything, until I saw this article. I skimmed through the site and I’m still trying to figure it out, honestly.

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  27. “They have Springsteen’s consent. They respect the artist. Fanficcers have no respect for the artist.”
    As has already been said one billion times on this blog, there are many fanficcers who only write in fandoms where they have the creator’s consent. There are plenty of fanficcers who do have respect for the artist. Even Lee has said he doesn’t have a problem with fanfiction when the creator has given their consent to the writing of it.
    From Tamora Pierce’s FAQ:
    “As long as no one tries to make a profit from fanfics based on my work, I don’t mind in the least. …On fanfics in general, I think they’re one way to develop your skills as a writer. Sometimes it’s easier to keep a story going if you don’t have to create the setting and some of the characters yourself. I’d hope that sooner or later people writing fan fiction would branch out into creating their own worlds and books (hey–I need something to read, too!), but at least they’re having fun as they write fan fiction.”
    She clearly doesn’t mind it, so how are her fans disrespectful in writing it?

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  28. Well, Jimbo, if you abuse a black person by calling him/her the N-word, you mustn’t wonder when you’re thought of as a racist, mustn’t you?
    So, if you abuse fanfiction writers by calling them all writers of homoerotic content, you mustn’t wonder when you’re called a homophobe.

    Saying that fanfiction has an extremely limited subject range is hardly the same as racial hatred. Fuck right off with that twisted logic, how dare you equate me with racist scumbags. If you’re just trolling, then fine, I’ve fallen for it – but if you’re serious, then fuck you.

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  29. Again, I’m someone who has never read fanfic and only just learned of it from Lee’s post, so forgive my ignorance- but after reading through your discussion, I have a question – how is fanfiction different from writing a television spec for The Simpsons?
    Writing specs for shows and characters you do not own is a given in the television industry as a way of demonstrating your ability, isn’t it?

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  30. I can take this one, Lee. Heck, even a 12 year could make the distinction…
    There’s a clear difference between writing a spec episodic teleplay to meet the employment requirements of the television industry and the masturbatory exercise known as fanfic.
    Writing a spec episodic teleplay is a practice mandated by the studios and producers (thus giving their clear consent) and permitted because of its limited scope and specific purpose. Writing a spec episodic teleplay is a requirement for obtaining work as a television writer. (Writing fanfic is a requirement for nothing)
    Spec teleplays are distributed to a narrow audience of industry professionals (agents, development execs, producers). The scripts are NOT disseminated to the general public at large, published in magazines or distributed freely on the internet.
    The studios and producers are NOT granting the people the right to produce short stories and novels based on TV shows to be distributed to the public at large. They ARE granting a narrow right to produce a spec teleplay to be distributed to industry professionals for the specific purpose of obtaining episode TV writing assignments.
    By comparison, fanfic is widely disseminated and is not written to meet the specific requirements of the publishing or entertainment industries. (To sell your book, publishers don’t require you to first submit your own version of Harry Potter. To sell a movie, studios don’t first ask you to write a MATRIX story).
    Fanfic is written, for the most part, without the consent of the creators/right’s holders and is widely disseminated to the public at large.

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  31. If the network or the studio had a problem with fan fic they could go after the fan fic authors and fan fic sites, e.g., several Simpsons/Angel fan sites were shut down or abandoned after Fox threatened to sue the site owners for copyright infringement–using videos from the show, posting detailed spoilers, etc.
    On the other hand, Chris Carter (The X-Files) was truly appreciative of his fans; he even named a character after a fan fic author. Why bite the hand that feeds you?
    Who on earth would be interested in Diagnosed Murder (median age 64?) fics anyway? Grandma Dyke???

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  32. I don’t feel offended in the least being called a writer of homoerotic fiction, anony! I read a lot of slash and love it. It’s just that I’m a gen writer myself – having no talent whatsoever for erotic fiction – so this idiotic remark “all fanficcers write butt-sex” that is *meant* as an offence does not even cut.
    Which I tried to explain by equating it to the N-word. Nigger is m*meant* as an offence, too – although in Europe blacks are still called negroes which word has exactly the same root as nigger, namely the Latin niger – so, in effect nigger is not really an offence and *meaning* or understanding it as such does only show how very uneducated you are.
    But with people who mostly do not even know a second language – let alone a third and fourth, who can wonder if they don’t know semantics.
    kete

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  33. No, Jimbo, I’m not trolling, I’m completely serious. Maybe you’re not a racist – I take your word for it, but you surely are a homophobe and a bigot – otherwise why would assumed explicit erotic content in stories you don’t even read offend you? You want to purge the world or what?
    kete

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  34. It doesn’t offend me kete, and it’s not the butt sex that anyone objects to, or any other type of sex. All we’re saying is that it’s a very limited form of expression – it’d be the same if a lot of fanfic concentrated solely on giraffes, to the exclusion of all else. Sure, you’d say, not all fanfic is about giraffes – and we’d point out the proliferation of sites with giraffe-based fic. We wouldn’t be insulting giraffes or saying they’re a bad thing – just pointing out how limited a subject it is. I love sex, all of it, there should be more sex of all kinds in the world. I’m not trying to purge the world of anything. Except maybe bad writing. Pointing out that a lot of fanfic seems to be limited to Subject A does not mean I disapprove of Subject A. I’m not a homophobe, a racist, or a bigot. I just don’t like fanfic, and think it’s stupid. Don’t force interpretations that aren’t there, and don’t you fucking dare call me either of those three things again.
    Feel free, by the way, to approach any black people, call them “niggers”, and then quickly explain how it’s not really an insult, and if it offends them it just shows how uneducated they are. Let me know when and where you’re doing it though, so I can watch you get your head forcibly inserted into your anus.

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  35. Thanks for the definition, Blaine – as I mentioned in my post, I didn’t really know what fanfic is or was, which is why I asked the question – it doesn’t make me a 12 year old, it just makes me someone unfamiliar with it.
    Wow, gotta say, this subject really raises the ire of a lot of folks, doesn’t it? Seems to be a lot of anger flying around.

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  36. Joshua,
    For what it’s worth, I wish I had an opportunity to answer your question before Blaine did…I think he/she could have explained the differences to you without the snide comment at the outset.
    That aside, I think Blaine did a good job explaining the differences between a spec episodic script and fanfiction.
    Lee

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  37. ‘Feel free, by the way, to approach any black people, call them “niggers”, and then quickly explain how it’s not really an insult, and if it offends them it just shows how uneducated they are. Let me know when and where you’re doing it though, so I can watch you get your head forcibly inserted into your anus.’
    Jimbo – I just want to say I love you and I want to bear your internet babies.

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  38. “It doesn’t offend me kete, and it’s not the butt sex that anyone objects to, or any other type of sex.”
    Then why are you always going on about it? Looks as if it upsets you quite a lot.
    “I love sex, all of it, there should be more sex of all kinds in the world.”
    Well, if that is so, you should be glad for more sexy stories on the net, shouldn’t you?
    “I’m not trying to purge the world of anything. Except maybe bad writing.”
    And who decides what that is? You?
    “Don’t force interpretations that aren’t there, and don’t you fucking dare call me either of those three things again.”
    Otherwise what, love? Don’t behave like a bigot or a homophobe and I won’t call you one. O’wise I’m just stating the obvious.
    “Feel free, by the way, to approach any black people, call them “niggers”, and then quickly explain how it’s not really an insult, and if it offends them it just shows how uneducated they are. Let me know when and where you’re doing it though, so I can watch you get your head forcibly inserted into your anus.”
    Why would I? I’m not the one spouting insults like “go, fuck yourself ” etc. I normally don’t mention anbody’s skin colour other than in an example like the one given above, because I don’t care about it.
    kete

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  39. Thanks Lee – I agree that the definition Blaine supplied was pretty clear. And for the record, I really enjoy reading just about everything on your blog – it just seems that the two discussions I’ve been witness to and sometime participate in have had high levels of animosity – so I guess both subjects are hot button issues, aren’t they?

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  40. kete: I never mentioned butt sex originally. Not once. Nor do I “keep going on about it”. You accused others of being homophobic because they dared to suggest that a lot of fanfiction is limited to the one theme, namely homoerotic stuff. I told you to stop, said that you were mistaken. And all of a sudden I’m a bigoted, racist homophobe? My “fuck you” comment was the same thing I direct at any asshole who tosses around insults like that lightly. I am not bigoted, or racist, or homophobic, and the fact that you keep harping on about this, despite it being obvious that I’m not any of those three, suggests that you’re not interested in rational debate, but prefer to smear anyone you disagree with. I did not say one fucking thing that was homophobic or bigoted, let alone racist. Show me any comment where I have displayed bigoted homophobia. Just one. I’ll wait. And then tying it into racism, to imply that I’m racist, too? Nice touch, thanks for that. You arrogant, nasty little shit.
    I’m extremely offended that you would just casually accuse me of those things, which is why I’m so angry, and why I’m telling you to go fuck yourself.

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  41. “You accused others of being homophobic because they dared to suggest that a lot of fanfiction is limited to the one theme, namely homoerotic stuff.”
    Not to get into the insult-slinging, since it seems pointless and, ah, kind of mean, but I think part of the reason kete got annoyed is that slash, i.e., the homoerotic stuff, doesn’t make up most or even much of fanfiction. Now, clearly you hate fanfiction and think it’s stupid, and that’s your right. Go for it. But whether you think fanfiction is immoral or moronic or unethical or whatever, there are still various basic facts about fanfiction that aren’t open to interpretation. Fact: Most fanfiction is written by women. Fact: Writing fanfiction is a growing trend among teens. Fact: Some authors dislike fanfiction. Fact: Some authors like fanfiction. Fact: Most fanfiction isn’t slash.
    Slash is a subgenre of fanfiction. Most of slash-all slash- has homoerotic content because that’s what slash is. It’s like saying all romance novels have a love story in them. Of course they do, or they wouldn’t be romance novels. Fanfiction, however, doesn’t equal slash, any more than “genre writing” equals romance novels – it also equals mystery, sci fi and what have you. It’s fine to hate fanfiction and there are plenty of good reasons to do so, but saying most of it is about gay sex when in fact most of it isn’t, will just get you a lot of long-winded explanations about how that isn’t actually true. Like this one.

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  42. Okay, okay, Jimbo, I apologize. You’re not – trusting your word – a racist, homophobe or bigot. However, if you go on arguing the position of homophobic fanfic haters, you mustn’t wonder if you get lumped in with the lot.
    And thank you, Sandrine, for your eloquent explanation!
    kete

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  43. Sorry Lee – didn’t mean for this to descend to the level it has, they just really got my back up (which was probably the whole idea). Thanks for the groovy blog, and for letting all of us run rampant over it…

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  44. “What’s the source of this information?”
    It’s hard to give an acurate source because no one goes around the internet taking surveys of fanfiction writers. But, I do agree with this assessment. If you go to an archive, or a fanfic forum, or even a whole bunch of personal sites, the majority of people writing fanfic will be women. I have no idea why that is, but it does seem to be true.

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  45. “Fact: Most fanfiction is written by women”
    What’s the source of this information?

    This is true. Do some googling, Mark. There are a variety of articles out there on the subject. Sometimes people do take surveys.
    What that fact has to do with anything, I don’t know. It is thrown up there a LOT, like it means something.

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  46. “Fact: Most fanfiction is written by women”
    What’s the source of this information?

    This is true. Do some googling, Mark. There are a variety of articles out there on the subject. Sometimes people do take surveys.
    What that fact has to do with anything, I don’t know. It is thrown up there a LOT, like it means something.

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  47. “What that fact has to do with anything, I don’t know. It is thrown up there a LOT, like it means something.”
    Is it? I don’t think it means anything particularly; I was simply stating it as a fact about fanfiction, like “Lots of fanfiction is posted on the Internet.”

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  48. ‘Writing fanfic is a requirement for nothing.’
    Except apparently publishing your work with Jack. Sorry, just thought I’d throw my two pence in there.
    I am curious though, why even bother discussing views on fanfic here? No one seems to have a middle ground or to have not already made up their mind. Whether fanfic is an ‘expression of creativity’ or an ‘infringement on the intentions of the creator’- it doesn’t really matter until a court makes the decision.
    I understand having a receptive forum for conversation and discussion, but this is categorically not one of those.
    Excepting Joshua, who posted earlier, no one’s going to convince anybody until that happens- least of all Mr. Goldberg.

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  49. Again, I really do want to interject. Let’s state what we’ve already proven beyond a doubt:
    1) Not all fanfiction is slash/lemon/sexual. Some of it is – and in some cases, it IS well done. If you must have one, I will go find you an example, because I really don’t read it much. CERTAINLY not all of it is well done, but there are examples. There is also non-romantic fanfiction, such as character studies, adventures, even murder mysteries. And a very good deal of romance doesn’t even rate an R. This is a FACT. Please no longer say that all fanfiction, or even most of it, is sex-based.
    2) A good deal of Fanwriters have respect for the authors. I have respect for them. You cannot say all or most in this case either. We respect their wishes and their material. If you want to bash people that don’t have respect for them, go ahead – everyone here will agree with you. But there’s really no point in doing that, because it’s preaching to the choir.
    Thank you. PLEASE don’t bring these points up again unless you want to state them in better, more specific terms. Otherwise, we’ll go in circles here forever.

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  50. Fanfic writers in “fandoms” (one of the lamest words ever coined) which don’t have specific permission from the authors and/or rights holders to piss in their pool have no respect for the authors. Unless you have permission, you are showing a profound lack of respect by disseminating stories based on someone else’s creativity.
    More importantly, though, what in the hell is lemon??

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  51. More importantly, though, what in the hell is lemon??
    Oh dear.
    Ask what a lime is also. Or check out the first song on the blog I link to.
    You like cartoons?
    May as well as about octopuses also.
    Oh dear.

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  52. “Fanfic writers in “fandoms” (one of the lamest words ever coined) which don’t have specific permission from the authors and/or rights holders to piss in their pool have no respect for the authors. Unless you have permission, you are showing a profound lack of respect by disseminating stories based on someone else’s creativity.”
    This keeps being repeated, and then people agree with it, and then it gets said again. I’m wondering if these comments are directed at those not commenting on this blog, or if the version of permission being generally used here: i.e. I’d say Tamora Pierce’s fans have permission to play in her world, as she’s publicly posted as much – isn’t what you mean by permission? Is it not specific enough? Do you feel each fanwriter needs specifc permission for each story and blanket permissions don’t count?
    And no, I don’t write fanfiction. I just read it.
    A lemon means a sex scene. A lime means an R-rated scene. The term purportedly comes from anime.

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  53. This keeps being repeated, and then people agree with it, and then it gets said again.

    Natalie Novik, one of the leading proponents of fanfiction, doesn’t agree with it. Check out her blog. Also a lot of people who have responded to Lee’s fanfic posts don’t agree with it, either.

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  54. “Natalie Novik, one of the leading proponents of fanfiction, doesn’t agree with it. Check out her blog.”
    Her name’s Naomi Novik, and she hasn’t posted on this blog. She may not agree with it. I’m not sure that’s what I gleaned from what she said, but whatever. There are people who don’t agree. That’s true. But I have read through much – certainly not all – of the fanfiction commentary on this blog, and I see a greater percentage of fanficcers agreeing that you shouldn’t write fanfiction against the express wishes of the author than I see those saying that the wishes of the author are unimportant.
    What I don’t see is any acknowledgment at all that, say, the kids writing fanfiction for Laurie Anderson or Tamora Pierce or JK Rowling and sticking to the author’s guidelines (and hell, even those who aren’t kids) aren’t disrespectful assholes. When fanfiction writers are referred to, it’s as a large, monolithic, despicable group all holding the same opinions. Which really, they are not.

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  55. *delurk*

    Fanfic writers in “fandoms” (one of the lamest words ever coined)

    Ah… now I get it. Y’all just hate fans. Every negative stereotype of genre fans has been invoked in various anti-fic comments, and now the word “fandom” is being attacked. Bitter that nobody really cares enough about your work?

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  56. KM – Lee didn’t say that, somebody else did. He gets enough shit heaps on him without taking everybody elses (he didn’t say the thing about fanfiction writers being soulless either. It was Guyot who said that).
    Fandom isn’t the lamest way of refering to fans. It’s the phrase “The Fen” thats really a hoot. Lets not forget that fan is short for fanatic…as many people in this debate have proved again and again.

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  57. KM – Lee didn’t say that, somebody else did. He gets enough shit heaped on him without taking everybody elses (he didn’t say the thing about fanfiction writers being soulless either. It was Guyot who said that).
    Fandom isn’t the lamest way of refering to fans. It’s the phrase “The Fen” thats really a hoot. Lets not forget that fan is short for fanatic…as many people in this debate have proved again and again.

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  58. What I don’t see is any acknowledgment at all that, say, the kids writing fanfiction for Laurie Anderson or Tamora Pierce or JK Rowling and sticking to the author’s guidelines (and hell, even those who aren’t kids) aren’t disrespectful assholes.
    I think there’s been plenty of that kind of acknowledgment, though maybe not explicitly enough, and maybe it’s been lost in the flamestorm. The keyword is permission.Those kids have it. The disagreement is over people who don’t.

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  59. Amusingly, unless you have an intellectual property that’s being infringed upon because of fanfic writers, I don’t think your opinion really matters – on fanfiction, that is.

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  60. Oh Jesus Christ! Seriously how many times do you guys feel it necessary to bitch? For professional writers you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to complain about shit that really has nothing to do with you. Why not spend your time doing something you enjoy instead of pissing and moaning about this? Honestly if it wasn’t for Fandom Wank no one would even fucking be on here. I beginning to think someone is just an attention whore.

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  61. Fandom isn’t the lamest way of refering to fans. It’s the phrase “The Fen” thats really a hoot.
    Hey, now. Let’s not harp on the word “fen” or you might have a rabid pack of filkers on your ass as well as the fanfiction writers. Many of whom are one and the same.
    And Lee? You have made it to Fandom Wank AGAIN. Honesly, are you TRYING to compete with Crystalwank? All anyone ever seems to hear from you is the now-tired “fanfiction is the root of all evil in this world” line, and any professional writer who would be considered a peer of yours who is accepting of fanfiction is obviously deranged.
    Ooooo… also… did you know that Cynthia Potts e-publishers were founded by fanficcers? I absolutely love the irony of that, don’t you? *swims in the irony a bit, till she gets all pruny*

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  62. >>I beginning to think someone is just an attention whore.
    Nah, he’s just upset there’s no archive for Diagnosed Murder fics! It ain’t the The X-Files and Lee’s no Chris Carter!

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  63. Fen is a good word, the plural of fan.
    I don’t think we should screw with Lee (and David, et al) by bringing up filk. After all, when I mentioned some months ago that the real money in fannish work was in fan-produced art, they seemed to have trouble with the concept.

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  64. It seems unlikely to me that Lee cares whether he is on fandom wank now, tomorrow, or forever. He is not in fandom. Only those in fandom care about fandom wank.
    “I think there’s been plenty of that kind of acknowledgment, though maybe not explicitly enough, and maybe it’s been lost in the flamestorm. The keyword is permission.Those kids have it. The disagreement is over people who don’t.”
    Well, in that area I don’t disagree – permission, if the property is still in copyright, is a must – but when there are so many authors and show creators who have gone out of their way to create supportive and encouraging environments for fanfiction of their properties, it seems strange that questions and comments about them, like Sarah’s upthread, get so roundly ignored. I recognize that this is because fanfiction writers who have no respect for the author/creators are more interesting than those who do, but there are still far fewer of them.

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  65. I think the reason comments like Sarah’s get roundly ignored is that those people aren’t really who anybody’s talking about. The issue at hand isn’t really fanfic; it’s unauthorized use of copyrighted material.
    If an author gives permission, use is authorized. So bringing those cases up is sort of beside the main point.

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  66. “Fan” has an age-old plural, and it is not “Fen.” It is “fans.”
    People are entitled to call themselves what they like and to choose a collective name if they want. Fans – SF and media fans – chose ‘fen’ at least thirty years ago.
    As a non-fan, you don’t get to choose. If you think of it as being similar to having no right to vote in an election in a country you don’t live in it may make more sense.

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  67. Keith wrote: I think the reason comments like Sarah’s get roundly ignored is that those people aren’t really who anybody’s talking about. […] If an author gives permission, use is authorized.
    Which would make sense ifsome of the commentators (for example, Claire) didn’t also refer in the same breath to authors, such as Rowling and Tolkein, that they’ve been told (and told, and told) have given permission, if limited permission.

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  68. Things get sloppy in this kind of emotion-charged conversation. People go looking for ways to piss off the opposition. It’s not as though you’re not guilty of that yourself.
    However, those blurred lines aside, lack of permission is the issue. So when somebody says “Yeah, but what about those times when the fanfic writer has permission,” it often doesn’t seem relevant enough to respond to.

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  69. And Lee? You have made it to Fandom Wank AGAIN. Honesly, are you TRYING to compete with Crystalwank?

    I have no idea what Fandom Wank is nor do I care. But I can see you put a lot value in it and assume that everybody else does, too. That’s not the case. Obviously, the approval or disapproval of people involved in “fandom wank” means something in your world…but it’s meaningless and non-existant in mine. In the same way, I suppose, that you wouldn’t care, or have any reason to notice, what is being said about you in the various professional screenwriting and mystery-writing groups.

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  70. For the record, I don’t think any novelist or screenwriter who approves of fanfiction based on their work is “deranged.” I don’t think negatively of them at all. And as I have said countless times before, I have no problem with fanfic that has the actual consent of the author whose work it is based on.

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  71. Oh, this is amusing. I have to say that though my empathy might be with fanficcers, Lee has consistently made excellent points and his detractors on this forum seem to be only able to throw not so veiled threats of homophobia. Hardly effective and quite wrong. There are also plenty of fanficcers who aren’t all that keen on homoerotic fiction (mainly written by virginal women – yes, like they’d have ANY clue…), who are hardly homophobic (and may even be gay ourselves) and who are rather fed up with sharing their lot with this bunch of self-absorbed megalomanics. Regardless of fanfic’s rightness or wrongness, I doubt many people would have a problem with it if it weren’t for slashers’ militant attitudes. They are clueless, unapologetic and arrogant and give the rest of fandom a worse name than it might already have had. I have no problem with slash itself, but wholeheartedly believe the people who write it and read it tend to go far beyond the pale in overstepping their rights and bounds.
    And kete, coming over here now that everyone in your last fandom has had their fill your shitstirring? Don’t you ever get tired of making mountains out of molehills?
    Girlpower

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  72. Fanfic writers in “fandoms” (one of the lamest words ever coined) which don’t have specific permission from the authors and/or rights holders to piss in their pool have no respect for the authors. Unless you have permission, you are showing a profound lack of respect by disseminating stories based on someone else’s creativity.
    Firstly, with all due respect, I don’t really care how stupid the word “fandom” is. It fit my purposes for this discussion so I used it. I personally think the word “Noob” is stupid (it was created to refer to new people in online games), but that doesn’t say anything about any given online gamer that strikes up a conversation with me.
    Secondly, I was trying to point out only that many fanfiction authors do not write only in fandoms (I’m sorry, it works) that aren’t approved by their authors.
    That those who write with explicit denial of permission are disrespectful has already been agreed upon by both sides. What the people here are arguing against is the idea that fanfiction as a whole is somehow intrinsically worthless and/or “stupid” in some way.
    So as I was saying – could we please not touch on that point again, because it’s been hashed through over and over even though we all agree.

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  73. Secondly, I was trying to point out only that many fanfiction authors do not write only in fandoms (I’m sorry, it works) that aren’t approved by their authors.
    Sorry, that’s “do not write in fandoms”. My [sic] 🙂

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  74. If fan fic is ‘limited’ because so much of it is about ‘slash’ ( or het or OTP romance ) then is television ‘limited’ because so many programs are about crime and justice?
    Just asking.

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